Existence of the Soul

[loseyourname]

We started to get into this in another thread, and I'd like to continue it, if anyone else is interested. A soul would have to be some form of immaterial individualized awareness. In this life anyway, it is an awareness of brain states, and some of you will probably argue, an awareness of a separate spiritual world as well, that may or may not include an all-powerful ruler of the spirit world, like a cognizance of God's love or something like that. I want a little more than that. What evidence is there for the existence of any immaterial portion of a human being? If this entity does exist, what form does it take once the brain has ceased to function? Of what is it then an awareness of? And how the hell could you possibly know?

[sSsflamesSs]

I believe that a soul does exist. Yes, it can't be proven scientifically, but who said that science was the ultimate test? Think about the human mind, for a moment. We are all different, in our thoughts, feelings, personalities, temperaments, reactions, etc. If we don't have souls, then how do we differ from organic machines? Above all else, what would be the purpose of life if we WERE organic machines, that were born in one instance and dead in the next, cut and clean like that, with no purpose? God, or some higher supernatural power, gave us the intelligence to know that an answer exists, yet he did not give us the knowledge to find that answer. The answer is probably something that we would rather not know - ignorance IS bliss. Or maybe I'm just rambling. It makes sense to me though.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by sSsflamesSs I believe that a soul does exist. Yes, it can't be proven scientifically, but who said that science was the ultimate test? Think about the human mind, for a moment. We are all different, in our thoughts, feelings, personalities, temperaments, reactions, etc. If we don't have souls, then how do we differ from organic machines? Above all else, what would be the purpose of life if we WERE organic machines, that were born in one instance and dead in the next, cut and clean like that, with no purpose? God, or some higher supernatural power, gave us the intelligence to know that an answer exists, yet he did not give us the knowledge to find that answer. The answer is probably something that we would rather not know - ignorance IS bliss. Or maybe I'm just rambling. It makes sense to me though.

Indeed, you have summed it up rather well. The soul is precisely our individual sense of self, in relation to the rest of the cosmic consciousness. It is all our distinct personalities and our distinct sets of beliefs and how our eyes, the gateways to our souls, all view the world in different ways and patterns. All our emotions from love, hate, remorse, care, sacrifice are expressions of our souls. Thought is the product of the soul and the free will; that by thinking I am moving my arm. Science would answer this as simply neuron signals or what have you, but can such answers never suffice an organismic consciousness such as man, who is conscious of his existence, of his own sense of self, and questions the universe and existence itself? It is precisely our soul that longs to return to this perfection, to this harmony, which to me means another stage. This is evidenced in all that we do. We all seek to live past our lifetimes in our deeds, our names, to conquer our limited sense of self. The souls need for perfection results in our ideologies and man made systems and moral codes to try to reach that state, and one can see that all the things that humans have created from ideas to inventions to systems, to ideologies, to methods of economics, to the family, to religions, are an attempt to attain that state of perfection, on the material world. The soul is essentially trapped in the body, for which the earthly course is but a stage.

However, to try to want evidence in scientific terms for the soul, I've already told Atom this in our previous discussion, it is pointless. Science or the ability to study nature is simply an extension of the human soul, of our will, and it cannot answer that which is it is a product of. A system of gaining knowledge for the material world cannot answer the immaterial, and you have created a contradiction in such in that you want evidence, for something immaterial. Each person himself must try to understand their own organismic consciousness and soul on themselves. You cannot create a yardstick of measurement for how each individual is connected to rest of the universe. At one point, science becomes totally useless and therefore making this thread an oxymoron of sorts.

[sSsflamesSs]

Originally posted by Anonymouse It is precisely our soul that longs to return to this perfection, to this harmony, which to me means another stage.

The soul is essentially trapped in the body, for which the earthly course is but a stage.

Precisely.

I believe that our understanding of the universe, which is dominantly of the material nature, fails to provide us with the insight necessary to understand our being in this universe.

What makes sense to me is that our whole reason for being here is beyond the bounds of our comprehension, for we have not been conditioned in that manner.

Consciously, we will not be able to make sense of it all for we are looking at it the wrong way. However, subconsciously, our souls, as the mouse said, pull us in a certain direction of perfection that we constantly attempt to reach, with our thoughts, actions, relationships, etc.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by sSsflamesSs Precisely.

I believe that our understanding of the universe, which is dominantly of the material nature, fails to provide us with the insight necessary to understand our being in this universe.

What makes sense to me is that our whole reason for being here is beyond the bounds of our comprehension, for we have not been conditioned in that manner.

Consciously, we will not be able to make sense of it all for we are looking at it the wrong way. However, subconsciously, our souls, as the mouse said, pull us in a certain direction of perfection that we constantly attempt to reach, with our thoughts, actions, relationships, etc.

Indeed, Hitler did note that all our actions are geared toward a certain idealism.

[EvrLstngDaze]

I think you guys are giving way too little credit to science. You have to remember that Modern Science (the real good stuff, like finding out about the structure of atoms, etc.) only started a 100 or so years ago. In the past 100-150 years it has advanced soo much, and continues to do so. Point is, I don't think you can come to the conclusion that science can't prove anything by making logical, self consistent arguments. The universe is not "logical" as we know logic (look at quantum/special relativity)

We are all different, in our thoughts, feelings, personalities, temperaments, reactions, etc.

all this can be explained by different brain wirings. You can turn a happy person into a depressed one. A shy person into an outgoing one, etc. brain electrochem. I've head of a case where they had to remove one of the hemispheres of the brain, and the guy's personality changed.

it cannot answer that which is it is a product of.

I've been struggeling with this question for quite a while, no conclusions yet.

I could go one forever, but I shouldn't, and should start on my work instead

one last thing. I think keeping an open mind is a good idea, not jumping to conclusions or making haphazard conclusions. souls might exist, however just because I don't understand how to explain them, I'm not going to assume they do.

it makes life a lot prettier I suppose, to have souls and mystical things

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by EvrLstngDaze I think you guys are giving way too little credit to science. You have to remember that Modern Science (the real good stuff, like finding out about the structure of atoms, etc.) only started a 100 or so years ago. In the past 100-150 years it has advanced soo much, and continues to do so. Point is, I don't think you can come to the conclusion that science can't prove anything by making logical, self consistent arguments. The universe is not "logical" as we know logic (look at quantum/special relativity)



all this can be explained by different brain wirings. You can turn a happy person into a depressed one. A shy person into an outgoing one, etc. brain electrochem. I've head of a case where they had to remove one of the hemispheres of the brain, and the guy's personality changed.



I've been struggeling with this question for quite a while, no conclusions yet.

I could go one forever, but I shouldn't, and should start on my work instead

one last thing. I think keeping an open mind is a good idea, not jumping to conclusions or making haphazard conclusions. souls might exist, however just because I don't understand how to explain them, I'm not going to assume they do.

it makes life a lot prettier I suppose, to have souls and mystical things

No one is taking credit away from science. What you have listed as examples do not deal with the soul, only with altering moods. Each person has a 'personality' or 'character' imprinted in them that makes them unique, and no one else like them; with their own name, their own history and their own perceptions. You are trying to marginalize that and just lump everything into some nice scientific explanation. Science cannot change that, and what you state is nothing more than screwing with brain signals that everyone has to carry on necessary functions, they do not deal with the ethereal.

Like I've told Adam before, now you get to hear it. To assume that science, the study of how things behave and react in our MATERIAL WORLD, can answer that which is immaterial, is stupid, for to engage in otherwise wishful thinking is human arrogance at its finest. Human intelligence is finite.

[sSsflamesSs]

Would human clones have souls?

Although the human body is far more complex than anything that humans can create "artificially", imagine that they could. If a scientist was able to make a human being from "parts", would it be the same as a human born the old fashioned way?

Just something that came to mind.

[PASAMONSTER]

wouldn't that make him a soul mate LOL

wow

I'm gonna make like Rodin and think a little.

[EvrLstngDaze]

Would human clones have souls?

I guess we're gonna have to try and see, won't we?