Existence of the Soul

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname Knowledge doesn't give answers; answes constitute knowledge. You keep saying that in the absence of knowledge, you must turn to faith, but then you use that faith to make a knowledge claim. I would criticize your use of circular reasoning, but you've already admitted that your argument consists of:

A. I have faith that X.
B. What I have faith in must be true.
C. Therefore, X.

You need to retake Logic 101.

Let me clarify this for you since you are having comprehension problems, or you are intentionally trying to make the erroneous assumption that you can somehow disprove faith by reason, the obvious error is because they are in different realms. Knowledge as we know through reason and science, is limited, for it can only answer temporal questions. It cannot answer questions beyond the material world.

When certain events happen and you live through certain experiences, you realize that between chance and miracle, that it was a miracle. What this then translates to you is that some force unseen interfered with your life, and it was because of this, of having faith in that force that you know that that force exists and is connected to you.

You can call it circular reasoning, you can say reason shows God cannot exist and soul is but our hallucinations, yet it remains that reason is trying to answer questions that are not in its realm. You do not have faith in God because you believe that all knowledge comes from reason, which that in itself is faith, yet cannot admit that at some point human intelligence is finite, and we have faith in alot of the 'knowledge' that we hold dear. Of course you constantly use reason to try to 'disprove' me, yet you just can't understand that reason cannot disprove faith, nor can faith interfere with reason, but at some point, we all have faith, like I explained to you numerous times. Most of our 'knowledge' is really based on faith, just like evolution is based on faith, which you will be fain to admit. Until you can properly read up on some metaphysics, which you probably will claim you have, you won't understand the distinction between faith and reason, for if you have read up on metaphysics, whether the ancient philosophers or the sages of alchemy, or what have you, all realize that there exists two different realms.

I think you should have made both God and Soul in one thread instead of making many separate little threads for these two subjects must collide.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Anonymouse When certain events happen and you live through certain experiences, you realize that between chance and miracle, that it was a miracle. What this then translates to you is that some force unseen interfered with your life, and it was because of this, of having faith in that force that you know that that force exists and is connected to you.

That is reasoning. It is also faulty reasoning, as you are dismissing alternative hypotheses without good cause. Unless God spoke to you and told you he intervened, you are assuming an awful lot.

You're not going to retreat into some extreme fideism to make your position unassailable. If you won't accept any form of negative evidence, you have made your own hypothesis unfalsifiable and an invalid hypothesis.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname That is reasoning. It is also faulty reasoning, as you are dismissing alternative hypotheses without good cause. Unless God spoke to you and told you he intervened, you are assuming an awful lot.

You're not going to retreat into some extreme fideism to make your position unassailable. If you won't accept any form of negative evidence, you have made your own hypothesis unfalsifiable and an invalid hypothesis.

My faith is mine, and to me is testament to a power higher than mere human reason, which is limited and cannot deal with it, thus we have faith.

Your position is beginning to be a tautology in that you keep restarting the same thing over and over when the issue was established long ago.

Faith and reason are two different things, to claim that my faith is faulty reasoning is to assume that all we can know is through reason alone and anything different ( faith ) is not valid, thereby in your own little mind you are making a case for yourself.

[loseyourname]

You have stated before that the human mind, and consciousness in particular, is not a material object; that is, it is not confined to the brain. The brain is only a physical manifestation and is somehow the point of interface between soul and body. Presumable you believe that when the physical body dies, some amount of thinking, and reasoning, will remain. Reconcile this with the fact that you say reasoning is of the brain, and cannot touch the immaterial world.

[Anonymouse]

Presumable you believe that when the physical body dies, some amount of thinking, and reasoning, will remain.

I never said that please stop once again mutating things. But this is yet another attempt by you to pin words on me that I have not said in order to have something to argue against. I said I believe in a hereafter, I don't know what it is obviously but I believe there is something there.

Reconcile this with the fact that you say reasoning is of the brain, and cannot touch the immaterial world. [/B]

I don't see what's wrong here unless you are trying to insinuate that this is some contradiction I made, since above you made me say things I have not said so that you may have something to spot my "contradiction" with.

You're dragging this thread way too long. It should have ended when we all stated our views, yet someone thinks his views should be everybodies and is trying to erase the gap between the polar worlds of reason and faith. Come to think of it, this was the same person who wanted to study human consciousness by going into the biological sciences.

[loseyourname]

Fine then. The thread is over. Continue to isolate and insulate yourself with your fideism. Continue to polarize and dichotomize. I will be the one actually coming up with answers. God forbid (yes, I said God) we should have a dialogue.

You take this a little too seriously, Mousy, as if you are offended that I challenge your beliefs.

[sleuth]

He who does not doubt the non-existence of GOD renders concrete his inadmissable ignorance,as undesrstanding of spiritual elements is spontaneouse.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by sleuth He who does not doubt the non-existence of GOD renders concrete his inadmissable ignorance,as undesrstanding of spiritual elements is spontaneouse.

He who does not doubt anything that isn't reliably backed by the sensory perception of many trustworthy people is a fool - what is your point?

The understanding of anything occurs in stages, though a moment of epiphany might indicate the attainment of full understanding. Nothing is spontaneous except for sensory perception, so unless you are postulating the existence of a spiritual sense, please explain what you are saying. If you are postulating such a sense, then back up your postulation.

[sleuth]

He who does not doubt anything that isn't reliably backed by the sensory perception of many trustworthy people is a fool - what is your point?

I prefer PM Passa do u mind?

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by loseyourname Fine then. The thread is over. Continue to isolate and insulate yourself with your fideism. Continue to polarize and dichotomize. I will be the one actually coming up with answers. God forbid (yes, I said God) we should have a dialogue.

You take this a little too seriously, Mousy, as if you are offended that I challenge your beliefs.

It's not being offended, it's you being ignorant, because you cannot grasp exactly which you stated, the dichotomy between faith and reason and how much faith is in our own every day lives, which you want to simply dismiss because to you knowledge only comes through reason, which is itself a philosohphical or metaphysical assumption.

I have questioned God, from atheist to agnostic, so it's not like I don't know the arguments, nothing is really new here, as the verse from Ecclesiastes would go, but rather it is your persistence that only you would know through reason, which is arrogance, and that faith is marginal, which I proved to you is more of our lives in our everyday lives, than you'd care to admit, for if you did, you would have touched me reasing these, but you ignored them. We have faith in our relationship with someone we love that they will not betray us. We don't know it, but we have faith they won't. It is your persistence that all knowledge comes through reason, and not through faith. I on the other hand believe that knowledge can come from either source, and I have tried to give my own experiences and as well as our practical every day understandings that faith reveals more to us than we might think.

And sleuth, "He who does not doubt the non-existence of GOD renders concrete his inadmissable ignorance,as undesrstanding of spiritual elements is spontaneouse."

That opens up a whole can of worms. I have questioned God, and didn't believe in such a concept, but have come back to have faith in it.