Historicity of the Jewish Holocaust

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by patlajan According to your standards the Genocide never happened. If 2,000 Armenians were giving eye witness accounts would you question them? I think not.

Comparing testimonies that defy logic and science, as opposed to outright human butchering, there can be no comparison. Again, I have maintained the Armenians, Cambodians, Ukrainians, Rwandans all have testimonies that do not defy logic or science, whereas there are Holocaust testimonies that defy logic. Furthermore, all the other crimes against humanity have taken a toll of roughly 1 million people for each group respectively, but only the Jewish one has the Kabbalistic 6 million.

And for the thousandth time, it is not a question of "did the Holocaust happen?" because the Holocaust is a series of events, not one giant lump of an event. I have maintained Jews were shot and executed, forced into labor, had their belongings confiscated, died of typhus. Obviously to question the method in which they died is another thing, let's understand this already folks.

[Fadix]

Originally posted by Darorinag It's almost funny how many "witnesses" were pretty much fantasizing about it and fictionalizing it... Elie Wiesel a prime example. He was caught with his lies more than once. And this coming from a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate....

And how many times were you caught with your lies, shall I post a countdown? Ah and Danny, I am still waiting you know what...

[Anonymouse]

I guess Felix doesn't deny Elie Wiesel lied.

[patlajan]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Comparing testimonies that defy logic and science, as opposed to outright human butchering, there can be no comparison. Again, I have maintained the Armenians, Cambodians, Ukrainians, Rwandans all have testimonies that do not defy logic or science, whereas there are Holocaust testimonies that defy logic. Furthermore, all the other crimes against humanity have taken a toll of roughly 1 million people for each group respectively, but only the Jewish one has the Kabbalistic 6 million.

And for the thousandth time, it is not a question of "did the Holocaust happen?" because the Holocaust is a series of events, not one giant lump of an event. I have maintained Jews were shot and executed, forced into labor, had their belongings confiscated, died of typhus. Obviously to question the method in which they died is another thing, let's understand this already folks.

800,000 people were murdered in about 100 days by the Hutu in Rwanada. This shows that the figure of millions is possible, and not "kabbalistic". Look what they were able to do in just 100 days armed mostly with macheties.

[Darorinag]

Hey clown, the word "sonderaktion" is believed to be used for the gassing campagn(as the said “special campagne”) and not as a synonymous for extermination, use a German English dictionary or find a German translator before farting a so-called argument from the other side in order to claim having debunked it.

You are once again using personal attacks. What, do you want me to ignore you once again? I suggest you try posting such offensive terms over at the revisionist forum, and see where that will get you. No knowledgeable person would resort to such words (clown, etc.).

In addition, I know what sonderaktion means. It means special action. I was referring to what it is interpreted to be, decoded, that is. I know German. Do you? Stop battling semantics.

I was not referring to him contracting himself, but rather his admission contradicting the interpretation by revisionists regarding the bunker, Revisionists claims that it was just a cleaning of the bunker, but Kremer clarify it when he refers to the women that were sent to be gassed, that contradict revisionists’ claims.

And what makes us sure that he was telling the truth? And sorry to disappoint you, but I'm no idiot. Maybe you should work on correcting your English though. What proof is there that he was saying the truth? He took back what he said later on, did he not? What makes us sure that he was saying the truth rather than saying just anything to save his *ss? First sentenced to death, then to life in prison, then let go in 10 years... hmmm... I wonder why!

Shall you go read it or shall I post it here to embarrass you ever further Danny boy?

Fadi boy, do post it here. That's what I've been asking for.

This is a clarification during his testimony where he refers to his dairy September 5 writing which you quoted

And how is his confession proven to correctly decode his diary entry? If he took back what he said later on, would it not have been possible that he was lying?

It's pure and simple. A justice system should not take as absolute proof any confessions of guilt. Many people have confessed to things they didn't do to avoid being sentenced for life to prison due to lack of other evidence, and them being the only suspects in the case. This has happened many a time. Later on, it has been proven that the confession was indeed wrong, and that it was done to do some damage control.

People might ask why the word Muslim here is used, “Muslims” was a term used by the NAZI to define those condemned to die.

Was it?

Using Flaurisson fraud claims Danny

You seem to have read the guy too much, that you have referred to him as "Flaurisson" rather than "Faurisson" twice. Well done.

Danny boy, the gassing in question happened outside in one the two Auschwitz gassing bunkers because the Krematorium was closed in July 1942 to be reopened for March 1943, while the “special operation” here is reported in September, when the “inside” gas chamber was closed to be replaced by two “outside” bunkers.

Oh, so now we are asked to interpret "outside" as meaning "outside bunkers"... hmmm, I wonder why he didn't take care to write "outside bunkers" instead of just "outside." Damn, I like this guy, he has some neat coding techniques.

At another instance, Kremer claims that while he sat waiting for the gassings to take place, an orderly carried gas masks for oxygen just in case any of the SS men who were poisoned needed to be "revived." And so they entered and brought the bodies out right away.... Without any ventilation. That is impossible, Fadi boy. He also claims that those who took out the (2000+) bodies were "eating and smoking" while doing their job, which means that they weren't wearing any gas masks...

Kremer use the word bunkers and outside because the gassing during that period were done outside. The fact that you have used this stupid argument shows us how you are after the “truth.”

How do you know that he referred to that for that reason? Maybe he really was referring to some other outside "special action"? How do you know he wasn't referring to something else? It is also notable how those "sonderaktions" coincided with new arrivals coming in.. so what makes us sure that the "special action" wasn't getting those new arrivals sorted out? Or some other thing, such as taking care of those who had died of disease overnight?

Ehe ? Danny boy, he uses the word “darnieder” for typhus and epidemic and NOT “Vernichtung.” So no it could not have been either way.

How do you know he wasn't interchanging words? After all, he used Zyklon B only once in reference to lice, he didn't mention it for the gassing, did he? What makes you sure that he didn't change the words and the manner in which he referred to them?

Vernichtung doesn't mean extermination.

Read his diary you will understand why… of course if you start quoting materials taken from revisionist sites you won’t find your answer. Carbon monoxide was used as well.

Carbon monoxide (CO) gas, however, will be considered briefly at this point. CO gas is a relatively poor execution gas in that it takes much too long to effect death, perhaps as long as 30 minutes, and if poorly circulated, longer. In order to utilize CO, a quantity of 4,000 ppm would be required making it necessary to pressurize the chamber at approximately 2.5 atmospheres with CO. Additionally, CO2 (carbon dioxide) has also been suggested. CO2 is even less effective than CO. These gasses, it has been alleged, were produced by diesel engines. Diesel engines produce exhausts which contain very little carbon monoxide and would require that the execution chamber be pressurized with the air/gas mixture in order to have sufficient gas to cause death. Carbon monoxide in quantities of 3000 ppm or 0.30% will cause nausea and headache after exposure for one hour and perhaps some long term damage.

Concentrations of some 4000 ppm and above will prove fatal for exposure times of over 1 hour. The author would submit that a chamber filled to capacity with persons occupying approximately 9 square feet or less (the minimum area required to ensure gas circulation around the occupants), that the occupants would die of suffocation due to their own exhaustion of the available air, well before the additional gas would take effect. Thus, simply closing the executees in this confined space would obviate the need of either CO or CO2 from an external source.

So you see, Fadi, CO is not a very ideal way of killing off people that quickly...

You are making that up.

I am not.

Here you go:

"On 2 September 1942, at 3 a.m. I was already assigned to take part in the action of gassing people. These mass murders took place in small cottages situated outside the Birkenau camp in a wood. These cottages were called 'bunkers' (Bunker) in the SS men's slang. All SS surgeons, on duty in the camp, took turns to participate in the gassings, which were called 'Sonderaktion' (special action-Editor's note). My part as surgeon at the gassing consisted in remaining in readiness near the bunker. I was brought there in a car. I sat in front with the driver and an SS hospital orderly (SDG) sat in the back of the car with an oxygen apparatus to revive SS men, employed in the gassing, in case any of them should succumb to the poisonous fumes. When the transport with people, who were destined for gassing, arrived at the railway ramp the SS officers selected from among the arrivals persons fit to work and the rest- old people, all children, women with children in arms and other persons not deemed fit to work-were loaded upon lorries and driven to the gas-chambers. I used to follow behind the transport till we reached the bunker. Here people were first driven to barracks where the victims undressed and then went naked to the gas-chambers. Very often no incidents occurred, as the SS men kept people quiet, maintaining that they were to bathe and be deloused. After driving all of them into the gas-chamber the door was closed and an SS man in a gasmask threw the contents of a Cyklon tin through an opening in the side wall. Shouting and screaming of the victims could be heard through that opening and it was clear that they fought for their lives [Lebenskampf]. These shouts were heard for a very short time. I should say for some minutes but I am unable to give the exact span of time."

it is OBVIOUS that the camp typhoid and typhus was all over the place, given the way that the NAZI were treating their prisoners, those diseases are spread because of VERY BAD conditions, and they are spread as well from cadavers, excrements… this is only further evidences that the NAZI were treating their prisoners like animals.

The Nazis themselves had cases of dyphteria, dysentery, and in some cases typhus. Read the diary entry by Kremer. The Nazis also gave haircuts for sanitary reasons (not for using women's hair for socks, as alleged but not proven, as usual)... Despite that, however, there were swimming pools, orchestras, etc. in the camps. Food was scarce, it was war. German nationals themselves had been suffering from starvation and exposure in many many cases. The situation with the camp inmates was not all that bad. There were less than 900,000 Jewish victims in all camps. Let's say 200,000 were shot by the Nazis. That leaves us 700,000 for the epidemic, a very normal and predictable number. More Germans died than 700,000 Jews inside camps...

And FYI, cadavers were burned.

[Darorinag]

Originally posted by patlajan 800,000 people were murdered in about 100 days by the Hutu in Rwanada. This shows that the figure of millions is possible, and not "kabbalistic". Look what they were able to do in just 100 days armed mostly with macheties.

"Possible" is not the same as "it happened". Moreover, in the manner alleged, it was not possible. The crematoria could not have operated at such high levels. It is impossible. It would've been possible if they had just shot them all. They would've had a better chance with an "execution" lie than a gas chamber one. But I guess it turned them on, after all...

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by patlajan 800,000 people were murdered in about 100 days by the Hutu in Rwanada. This shows that the figure of millions is possible, and not "kabbalistic". Look what they were able to do in just 100 days armed mostly with macheties.

No one denies this, and this was perhaps the most extreme case of on the spot savagery. And yet, around a million died in Rwanda. The point is, if such efficiency is possible, why would the Nazis be so stupid to spend millions of dollars to construct an elaborate plan to get rid of Jews? Just shoot them, cost cutting and time preference all rolled into one.

[Darorinag]

Originally posted by Anonymouse No one denies this, and this was perhaps the most extreme case of on the spot savagery. And yet, around a million died in Rwanda. The point is, if such efficiency is possible, why would the Nazis be so stupid to spend millions of dollars to construct an elaborate plan to get rid of Jews? Just shoot them, cost cutting and time preference all rolled into one.

No-o... the Germans had too much time on their hands, they wanted to brutally torture them and have some fun. After all, they didn't have an outside war to fight....

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by patlajan The gas chamber plan is more efficient, and does not seem elaborate to me. The alternative would be to have common soldiers killing civilians many times over. The psychological effects would be devastating and some might refuse to do it. On the other hand having the dirty work be in the hands of a few specialy picked people is more plausable. Flipping a gas chamber switch is a lot easier than looking someone in the eye.

Yet, Jews were shot and executed. Moreover, Armenians, Cambodians, Rwandans all died in those similar manners. It used to be claimed that people were gassed in camps such as Dachau, or the ones liberated by the U.S., and during Nuremberg people were convicted for these allegations. Today it is claimed that no one was gassed in Dachau. Why did they lie during Nuremberg? This is just one of the many bogus incidents.

[patlajan]

These are pointless details. You and Dan are in this for personal reasons. I'm done.