Historicity of the Jewish Holocaust

[Anonymouse]

Israel is a prominent ally of Turkey. Imagine if someone like me goes further into history and states that the bulk of the Young Turk movement were made up of Doenmeh Jews, and Ataturk himself was Jewish. Boy would you get perplexed looks on peoples' faces. But ignore this, this is just the rantings of a "hater".

[Anonymouse]

That's right! I forgot, we can't post things that threaten the matrix of the eggplant.

[Darorinag]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Well Dan you just laid it all on the table didn't you? Why not proceed at a more rational course, rather than emotional. Some people here are unaware of what this is. Why not take it little by little, instead of just diving head on into the complex web of the Holocaust.

I already stated I was outlining the basic points - i.e. the fake photos, the chemical analysis of cyanide residues, and the issue with Robert Van Pelt.

I can't possibly go into all that in one shot.

On the gas chambers in Auschwitz:

Calculations have shown that the ventilation facilities in the alleged ‘gas chambers’ of crematoria II and III in Birkenau – facilities designed only for ventilation of ordinary mortuaries – could have performed at most 6 to 8 air exchanges per hour.137 Due to the poor system configuration (inlet right above outlet) and the alleged overcrowding of the room with bodies, half an hour would never have sufficed to achieve harmless levels of hydrogen cyanide following a gassing, even if there had been no Zyklon B still releasing gas for hours on end. The eyewitness testimony claiming adequate ventilation after 20 to 30 minutes in mortuaries 1 of crematoria II and III are thus not credible.138

This pertains all the more for crematoria IV and V as well as for the sinister Farm Houses (Bunkers) which could have been aired out only via one or two doors. Since they are said to have been
equally crammed full of bodies, with the Zyklon B scattered among them, the ventilation time would have been at least one day, the same as was required for ordinary room disinfestations.139

What is more, ordinary rooms would allow for the removal of the Zyklon B, and generally have windows to facilitate ventilation and are not packed with bodies. Eyewitness testimony telling of
work performed without the benefit of gas masks in these ‘gas chambers’ immediately or shortly after the gassing is thus utterly unbelievable. And even if the workers had worn gas masks – carrying the corpses would have been hard work (causing perspiration! cf. Section 3.1.), and in these rooms high in hydrogen cyanide any such work would have been extremely risky due to the potential for poisoning via the skin.

References:

138 A detailed discussion and calculations about the ventilation of this morgue can be found at op. cit. (note 29).

139 Entseuchungs- und Entwesungsvorschrift für die Wehrmacht, H. Dv. 194, M. Dv. 277, L. Dv. 416, Reichsdruckerei,
Berlin 1939; Richtlinien für die Anwendung von Blausäure (Zyklon) zur Ungeziefervertilgung (Entwesung), Gesundheitsanstalt
des Protektorats Böhmen und Mähren, Prague n.d.; Doc. NI-9912 (1) in the Nuremberg Trial; Technische
Regeln für Gefahrstoffe, TRGS 512, Begasungen, BArbBl. No. 10/1989, 72, in R. Kühn, K. Birett, Merkblätter
Gefährlicher Arbeitsstoffe, ecomed, Landsberg 1990.

140 This is also the opinion of the French chemical expert on hydrogen cyanide, B. Clair, op. cit., (note 25), who otherwise
strongly disagrees with my conclusions; i.e., he believes in the NS ‘gas chambers’.

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On the claim that victims had absorbed all the HCN:

G. Wellers was the first to advance the theory that the victims had absorbed all the hydrogen cyanide
by respiration.16 This theory has already been clearly refuted in section 4.2.2.1.

4.2.2.1. Poisoning or Suffocation?
If one assumes an execution time roughly commensurate to that in American gas chambers (10 minutes, with approximately 0.3% hydrogen cyanide per m3), then the concentration of 0.3% by
volume (3.6 g/m3) must have prevailed in even the hindmost corner of the ‘gas chamber’ by the end of the execution process at the latest, i.e., after 10 minutes. Given a free air volume of 430 m3 in the mortuaries 1 of crematoria II and III,133 this corresponds to approximately 1.5 kg of evenly distributed
hydrogen cyanide (3.3 lbs). Since after 5 to 10 minutes the carrier substance has released only 10% of its hydrogen cyanide, then an execution that takes only a few minutes would require the use
of 10 times this quantity, i.e., at least 15 kg Zyklon B (33 lbs). Of course this would work only on the condition that the hydrogen cyanide that is released would reach the victims right away, which
one cannot expect in large and overcrowded rooms. We note, therefore that for the gassing procedures attested to, at least 20 kg of Zyklon B would have had to be used per gassing (44 lbs). The quantities actually attested to by witnesses – 5 to 12 kg (11 – 26 lbs) – thus correspond at best to the
absolute minimum required.

On the basis of detailed calculations, it was demonstrated that the victims could not possibly have breathed the available air volume of the chamber (400 m3) more than once within the 5 to 10 minutes for which the people locked into the ‘gas chamber’ allegedly still lived following the introduction of the poison gas.134 This shows that the respiration of the victims could not have reduced the poison gas content of the air significantly below 50% of its hypothetical maximum initial concentration.
But since the Zyklon B still contains 90% of its original content after the first 5 to 10 minutes following its distribution, i.e., after the death of the victims, the poison gas content of the air will
continue to rise. This shows that under the conditions attested to by the witnesses, the victims could have breathed in (i.e filtered away) only a small fraction of the poison used.
The theory occasionally advanced, that the victims had absorbed all of the poison gas,135 would require that only very small quantities of poison gas were used, so that the people could have acted as living filters for the entire duration of evaporation, i.e., the time for which the Zyklon B released the poison (at least 2 hours). This means that the doses of poison were too small to kill them, i.e., the concentrations were below 0.01% by volume – meaning that less than 500 g of Zyklon B was used.

However, it can be shown that the victims in the airtight chamber would probably have suffocated after only one hour and without any poison gas,134 so that even under these conditions the victims’ complete absorption of the hydrogen cyanide would have failed due to the slow rate of evaporation of hydrogen cyanide from the Zyklon B carrier material. Thus, this theory not only contradicts the eyewitness statements with respect to quantities of Zyklon B and speed of execution, but is also technically utterly nonsensical, since if the victims had been killed by suffocation there would have been no need to expend the costly Zyklon B, which was in short enough supply even without being wasted.[/quote]

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A serious attempt at deception:

Many exterminationists rely heavily on the results of the Krakow Institute of Forensic Research, i.e., the work of Markiewicz and colleagues as published in 1994. These Poles have conducted their analyses with a method which is not able to detect iron cyanide compounds. They did this because they allegedly didn’t understand how such compounds could possibly form:11

“It is hard to imagine the chemical reactions and physicochemical processes that could have led to the formation of Prussian blue [= iron blue, G.R.] in that place.”

Has anyone ever heard that the non-understanding of a phenomenon is a reason for not examining it? For the Poles it obviously was. And even more: They did not even try to refute the theory I presented in one of my publications of spring 1993.163 They knew of this publication, since they quoted
it, but only as an example of the alleged evil deeds of the deniers and whitewashers of Hitler, whom they intend to refute.

11 J. Markiewicz, W. Gubala, J. Labedz, B. Trzcinska, published without knowledge of the authors and without the sampling protocol as “An official Polish report on the Auschwitz ‘gas chambers’” in The Journal of Historical Review, Summer, 11(2) (1991), pp. 207-216. (online: vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/11/2/IHR207-216.html); their own
publication appeared three years later: J. Markiewicz, W. Gubala, J. Labedz, Z Zagadnien Nauk Sadowych, Z. XXX (1994), pp. 17-27 (online: www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/postleuchter.report).

Source of above quoted material: Dissecting the Holocaust (Germar Rudolf)

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It's really hard to talk about something specific unless you ask me to provide proof about SOMETHING. There are many claims about the holocaust, and so there are many aspects to it.

I suggest that you choose a topic, for example, gas chambers at Auschwitz, or crematoria at Auschw. & Birkenau. Whatever you want to discuss.

[Darorinag]

From Dissecting the Holocaust:

Oven Capacity for Normal Cremations at Auschwitz-Birkenau:

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium I
# MUFFLES: 6
OPERATION: × 20 h/day
CAPACITY = 6 x 20 = 120 normal bodies / day

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium II
# MUFFLES: 15
OPERATION: × 20 h/day
CAPACITY = 15 x 20 = 300 normal bodies / day

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium III
# MUFFLES: 15
OPERATION: × 20 h/day
CAPACITY = 15 x 20 = 300 normal bodies / day

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium IV
# MUFFLES: 8
OPERATION: × 20 h/day
CAPACITY = 8 x 20 = 160 normal bodies / day

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium V
# MUFFLES: 8
OPERATION: × 20 h/day
CAPACITY = 8 x 20 = 160 normal bodies / day

This cremation capacity is, however, purely theoretical, because it ignores an important fact: according to the memo of March 17, 1943,128 the normal activity of the crematoria was only 12 hours
per day, thus taking into consideration the inevitable occurring breakdowns of machinery. Hence, the actual capacity was only 60% of the values given above:

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium I
# MUFFLES: 6
OPERATION: × 12 h/day
CAPACITY = 6 x 12 = 72 normal bodies / day

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium II
# MUFFLES: 15
OPERATION: × 12 h/day
CAPACITY = 15 x 12 = 180 normal bodies / day

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium III
# MUFFLES: 15
OPERATION: × 12 h/day
CAPACITY = 15 x 12 = 180 normal bodies / day

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium IV
# MUFFLES: 8
OPERATION: × 12 h/day
CAPACITY = 8 x 12 = 96 normal bodies / day

CREMATORIUM: Crematorium V
# MUFFLES: 8
OPERATION: × 12 h/day
CAPACITY = 8 x 12 = 96 normal bodies / day

Thus, the 46 muffles in the cremation ovens of Birkenau could have cremated a maximum of (46 × 3,000 =) 138,000 bodies. After that, they would have had to be dismantled in order to replace the firebrick. If Pressac were correct in his assumption that these ovens served for the cremation of not only the
100,000 registered inmates who died of natural causes and are proven to have been cremated here, but also for the cremation of an additional 530,000 gassing victims, then the brickwork of the muffles would have had to be replaced (630,000 ÷ 138,000 =) approximately five times. For crematoria II and III alone this would have required 320,000 kg (705,600 lbs) of fireproof material – not to mention the inevitable damage done to the fireproof inner lining of the generators – and if we take the time needed by August Willing in Gusen as guideline, the work would have taken about 9,000 man-hours to complete.

Taking into consideration this restoration of the fireproof brick of two muffles, the six muffles of the Auschwitz I (the Main Camp) were able to cremate a total of 24,000 bodies. From all this it follows that the ovens of Auschwitz I and Birkenau (Auschwitz II) altogether were able to cremate about (138,000 + 24,000 =) 162,000 bodies during the period of their existence. This figure agrees quite well with the number of known, deceased registered inmates.

Thus, the cremation of the supposed gassing victims was physically impossible in technological respects as well.

Carlo Mattogno, "The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau." Dissecting the Holocaust, Germar Rudolf. p. 402-407.

[Anonymouse]

See what I mean? This sort of uncontrolled posting of endless stuff is pointless. Even Fadix engages in this. Why not just stick to the simple things? Even though you may claim you are doing everyone a service by spamming the place with Holocaustian stuff, most people don't even know what Zyklon B is, for you to be posting Crematorium information. In this regard you're just looking for an inn to disseminate the revisionist stuff. Relax, be patient. Simply highlight the basic points of your position, and if the discussion goes further you can back up your position with whatever evidence you have. Right now you are just debating with yourself.

[Darorinag]

Anonymouse, in order for someone to read about the holocaust they need to know SOMETHING about it. I can't cover everything in this post. I can't give a detailed scientific description of what Zyklon B is and how it works. They can do a search on it and read about it. This is supposed to be an intellectual discussion, and in any such discussion, you have to know the basics in order to even start reading.

There are no "special" outlines for my position or any revisionist's position for that matter. We can simply debunk any of the claims, including the gas chambers, crematoria, burning pits, executions, and so on.

I am posting small bits and pieces of what I think is very important in proving the non-existence of these things.

Since you didn't come forward and ask me to speak about a particular thing, all I can do is just that. The holocaust discussion is a huge one and one can go in any direction. That is beyond the scope of this thread.

I am not spamming anything with holocaust stuff. I was asked to present my position. I said I can debunk any of the claims of gas chambers, etc. I posted some bits about it. No one came forward and posted anything about what they wanted me to disprove.

I am not looking for anything to disseminate the revisionist stuff. I can do it on a revisionist forum. I wasn't the one who started this thread. Stop blaming me for it. If you're trying to get the thread closed, nice try.

So here, again, is my position:

-Was there a holocaust? No
-Were there deportations? Yes
-Were there camps? Yes
-Were there extermination plans? No
-Were there extermination acts? No
-Were there deaths in the camps? Yes
-Were there gas chambers? No
-Were there any other methods of mass killing? No
-Are the eyewitness accounts reliable? No
-Is the Anne Frank diary a fake? Yes
-Did 6 million really die? No

Pick and choose which ones you want me to prove.

[Darorinag]

I will answer some of the questions anyway.

1. Was there a holocaust?

There is no proof that there was a coordinated plan for extermination, or that any such thing was carried out. There is no denial that many Jews died in the concentration camps, but the reasons for those have nothing to do (not even remotely) with "holocaust." There are German medical records that show that Jews in concentration camps were suffering from typhus. Victims who had succumbed to it were later cremated in order to avoid further spread of the disease. That, however, is no proof that there was any sort of extermination plan.

2. Were there deportations?

Yes there were. However, the horror stories about people drinking their own urine (and survived because of it) on trains on route to concentration camps because they were thirsty are scientifically impossible, because drinking urine would further dehydrate the body.

3. Were there camps?

Yes, there were many camps: Treblinka, Majdanek, Auschwitz & Birkenau, Dachau, etc.

4. Were there extermination plans?

Many exterminationists claim that the plan to deport and murder all the Jews in Europe was arrived to ("the final solution" as they call it) at the Wannsee "Conference." Nowhere in the translation of the Wannsee Protocol does it state that there was a plan to exterminate Jews. There was a plan to deport them, because they presented a threat to Nazi Germany (boycotts, uprisings, and so on).

5. Were there extermination acts?

No. There is no proof that there was. Only "survivor" accounts are available, and they have been proven to be contradictory, some of them even exposed as fraud.

6. Were there deaths in the camps?

Yes there were. Many Jews died of typhus (mostly) and other medical conditions. Some patients were treated at the medical center, according to the medical records at the camps. Births were not uncommon at Auschwitz (and other camps). There was a Polish midwife by the name of Stanislawa Leszczynska, who gave birth to at least 300 children in Auschwitz. Many claim that the newborns were taken away and drowned or thrown into pits, but there is no proof to that, and if it had happened, the midwife would have known, and nowhere does she mention anything about it.

7. Were there gas chambers?

There is no proof that there were any. The cyanide residues do not correspond to the amounts needed to kill the victims in the chamber as fast as the "witnesses" of the process claimed they were conducted. Moreover, a gas chamber needs proper ventilation for more than 15 hours after HCN has been released. Here again, witnesses claim that after half an hour, they opened the door and removed the bodies. That is scientifically impossible.

8. Were there any other methods of mass killing?

There is no proof that there were any. The crematoria were used for burning typhus victims. The burning pits are scientifically impossible, since Oxygen would be needed to burn bodies, and in a pit, Oxygen would be scarce.

9. Are the eyewitness accounts reliable?

No. Many contradictions have been found between various survivors' accounts. Many have been exposed as fraudulent or otherwise a work of fiction claimed to be non-fictional. Anne Frank's diary is one example (written by Meyer Levin - court case: Otto Frank vs. Meyer Levin).

10. Is the Anne Frank diary a fake?

Yes. In a court case between Anne Frank's father, Otto Frank, and Meyer Levin, Meyer received $50,000 after a court ruling in his favour, because Frank had implanted a piece of dialogue from the author Levin, and claimed it was his daughter's intellectual work. The trial wasn't officially reported, but records of it still exist.
In addition to many impossibilities in the diary itself.

11. Did 6 million really die?

No. Regardless of the manner in which they died (by "extermination" or disease), the number of victims was much lower than 6 million. Again, there have been many calculations that prove that the 6 million number is wrong. But I will not post the studies here because you can read them on the web, from reliable scientific and statistical sources such as Germar Rudolf's book. Ernst Zundel's "Did 6 Million Really Die?" is also a good source ( http://www.zundelsite.org/english/harwood/Didsix01.html )

Auschwitz victims' numbers have fluctuated constantly for 50 years:

In Dec. 1945, the number was close to 8 million for Auschwitz alone.

By Oct. 1946, it was down to 4 million, and this figure was held until Jan. 1990.

In Jan. 1990, there was a steep fall in the number of victims at Auschwitz, from 4 million to MUCH less than 1 million (at most half a million).

By July 1990, the number had increased to 2 million.

In Sept. 1993, it was around 800,000.

On Jan. 23, 1995, the number went up to 1.5 million.

On Jan. 25, 1995, the number skyrocketed to 4 million again.

[Anonymouse]

I like to state that I disagree with you on the level of killings. I am of the persuasion that there will be those catalysts that will act outside of orders and resort to exterminations themselves, i.e. shooting executing, in the lower ranks of the Einsatzgruppen.

Furthermore, as far as the extermination plan and Wannsee Protocol, there is no concrete written document. I would imagine it would be counter productive and stupid of someone to write it down and detail his plans for extermination. The discussion around this eventually hovers around the term "Ausrotten" or "Ausrottung", which has several meanings auf Deutsch, including to "weed out".

[Sip]

Re: Historicity of the Jewish Holocaust

Edited by loseyourname: Please stick to posting constructive commentary.

[Darorinag]

I like to state that I disagree with you on the level of killings. I am of the persuasion that there will be those catalysts that will act outside of orders and resort to exterminations themselves, i.e. shooting executing, in the lower ranks of the Einsatzgruppen.

I am not denying that there were NO killings per se. It is possible that there were some shootings and executions due to people trying to run away, etc. However, there is no proof to that either. The only photos that "show" shootings have been proven to be fakes. The rest of the photos are of people allegedly marching to gas chambers, with no proof that they actually are.

The Einsatzgruppen were concerned with Communist commisars. The only "proof" they have that Hitler gave orders that they not only kill the captured Soviets but also Russian Jews is a claim that he gave a verbal order. The written order by Hitler, signed by Keitel identified the tasks of the Einsatzgruppen, clearly stating that its purpose was to fight communist indoctrination.

Again, there is no proof that such things happened in the lower ranks of the Einsatzgruppen.

Furthermore, as far as the extermination plan and Wannsee Protocol, there is no concrete written document. I would imagine it would be counter productive and stupid of someone to write it down and detail his plans for extermination.

Maybe. But that is just speculation. It could be that it really wasn't there. This is where bias comes in.

Exterminationists use the Wannsee Conference as their starting point in "proving" that there were plans of extermination. Reitlinger, Manvell, Frankl, who claim that there WAS a plan, say: "The minutes are shrouded in the form of officialdom that cloaks the real significance of the words and terminology that are used" (The Incomparable Crime,London, 1967, p. 46).

Now, look at that. Are we supposed to believe that there were plans for a holocaust based on one unclear word? It could've meant one thing or the other. It doesn't provide any proof that it was a "cloaked" statement.