Historicity of the Jewish Holocaust

[Fadix]

Originally posted by Darorinag As a side-note, and I am not going to discuss who has debunked who anymore, Leuchter Report vindicated:

http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc426v12.html

It is expected you will run away after my answers to you... now stop finding pathetic reasons and answer my post...

as for Leuchter, Rudolf himelsf discredited his report when he said others to ignore his 1994 report which was nearly a copy of Leutcher report(1988).

[Fadix]

Originally posted by vrej hey guys, i just wanted clarification on one thing, were Talaat , enver, and Jemal sephardic zionist jews? thats what i had heard.
I am not saying this is fact, rather i am asking if anyone here knows of anything like this.

Dr. Harry Stuermer in his work published in 1917(Two War Years in Constantinople) refer Talaat as a sephardic Jew(Nogales refer Talaat as Jew as well), there is some evidences for the others as well. But being "Jewish" in their cases was more about encestry rather than a real belief or "religion." Talaat ordered the evacuation of the Baghdad Jews and the Jewish Nili group reported a potential disasterous decision by Talaat regarding Palestine.

The Ittihadist restrictive branch was controled mostly by the Masonary and sephardic Jews, but they were Turkish ultranationalists and not Jewish ultranationalists, since they were against the foundation of Israel and that Jews were included in their labour workers and the first front army constitued of minorities(mostly Armenians).

[Anonymouse]

Just like the Masonic Jacobins and French nationalism, hooray!

[Darorinag]

Originally posted by nairi Dan, I'm simply disappointed, very very disappointed. I seriously thought you had changed when you came back to xxxxxxxx after such a long absence. But I was wrong. The first opportunity you got to bash Jews you took. In your case it's not about "questioning" the holocaust; it's about bashing Jews. That's what I find sad. It's like you're angry at something personal in your life and you use another nation or religion as a punching bag. Exactly the way Turks did in 1915 and Hitler in 1945.

Nairi, disappointed at what? I am not bashing Jews. I might have bashed them on and off on other occasions, but that doesn't mean that the reason I'm a revisionist is because I dislike Jews. That is irrelevant.

And when did I come back after a long absence? First off, when I first came to that forum, I was very "liberal", a communist even. I was not anti-black, or anti-jewish. I was even for mixed marriages. Since then, I have changed my mind. I am not as "stubborn" as you might think I am. I used to passionately argue against capitalism. Now I'm against communism. I have changed my mind because of a discussion I had with someone. My views are not fixed in concrete. I believe in things and I might change my views if I am given good reasons for doing so.

I have taken part in "holocaust" commemoration ceremonies at university. I even read names of "victims of extermination." That was last year. And then I heard about Ernst Zundel, and started reading about him and got into reading revisionist material, and that changed my entire viewpoint. And again, my views aren't changed all that easily. I have read both exterminationist and revisionist material. God knows how much I've been brainwashed during school years, and from the TV, about how evil Nazis were, and how they exterminated 6 million Jews.

And as someone who has been the victim of power abuse and institutional lies, I have a duty to talk loudly against any such behaviour. It is a matter of conscience, not personal dislike or hatred. You might think it's only a bigoted hatred of Jews, but it's not that. It's not even 0.01% that. It has no place in my views about the holocaust. That I accuse zionists of lying does not mean I hate them. There are Jews who speak up against the zionist agenda and the holocaust industry. David Cole and Norman Finkelstein are 2 examples.

In your case it's not about "questioning" the holocaust

Look, obviously, you can't put your bias about my personal views of Jews behind you. If there were a holocaust, no matter how much I hated the Jews, I wouldn't have denied it. I don't deny slavery. I know too much about what the death of a relative means to deny something like that if there is enough proof to support it. But my feelings should not get in the way of objective truth. I have learned to separate the two; otherwise I would've gone crazy. You are assuming things about me that neither you nor anyone else knows or will ever know. I have made my views towards Jews known. I don't hate them individually. I hate their agenda. I hate zionists. Probably as much as the world hates Nazis. It is the same. Only that the media has dissed Hitler for half a century, while zionism continues to be celebrated (while Palestinians are killed every day). As you might know, I am not pro-Arab either, at least not anymore. I have washed my hands off the whole Arab-Jew issue, and redirected that energy into scholarly material like revisionism. I think I have matured past the age of yelling during rallies. Half a year ago, I might not have said this. Now I am. I have changed. So have my views. People change. Just because you've held a certain view of the holocaust for years doesn't mean you can't change it.

My mom is very much against my revisionism, both for emotional and practical reasons. She, too, calls me a neo-Nazi, and tells me that being a revisionist won't help me in my future life and career. I don't care. I am not looking for heroism. Heroism is the hoax of fairy tales. What good is it to be a hero when you're dead? I don't care about that. I do care about truth. I want to know the truth. I dislike living in the dark. Perhaps I'm a revisionist for personal reasons too, because I don't know the truth about many of the events that took place during my childhood, but that is not very relevant. It's not the causes that matter. It's the outcome that matters.

That's what I find sad.

Look, I am not bashing Jews. OK? I never bashed Jews in this thread. If I had, I would've been warned by the moderators. Fact is, I never bashed anyone in here. I didn't even express Nazi sentiment. I am not trying to clear Nazis of the blame. I am trying to stop zionists from getting away with their lies. I don't want to live in a hoax world. Do you? Perhaps it's all fine and dandy to live in a shell, comfortable, protectd, but that is not what I want.

It's like you're angry at something personal in your life and you use another nation or religion as a punching bag.

Look, let's leave my personal life out of this. I am not angry at anyone. I want the truth. Nothing but the truth. I want it told in public, taught in schools, celebrated. I want truth, not lies, to be celebrated. I want to stop these lies that are offensive to true victims of genocides.

Exactly the way Turks did in 1915 and Hitler in 1945.

Again, this is where the brainwashed part comes in. There is absolutely no proof that Hitler exterminated Jews. You are bringing the example that you want to prove happened. You are begging the question. It's fallacious. You are bringing an example from a very romantically (it's up to you to interpret this) (un)documented history.

So Dan, tell me this, what order exists that the Young Turks planned a Genocide? You see, I very much think there are oral orders Dan, even for Hitler.

Anonymouse, I am not an expert of the Armenian genocide, so I can't speak about that. I know very little about it. I know very little about the documents. And the reason for that is, I can't get hold of the documents. They are not widely available. There are also less books that deal with it. Perhaps when I am done with the Jewish "holocaust", I will start with the Armenian genocide, and I don't have the obligation to defend the Armenian genocide if there is no PROOF of it. Otherwise I would be a hypocrite.

Besides, I alread said that orders are one thing, the carrying out of orders is another. That there was an order does not mean that it was carried out.

[Fadix]

"I have taken part in "holocaust" commemoration ceremonies at university. I even read names of "victims of extermination." That was last year. And then I heard about Ernst Zundel, and started reading about him and got into reading revisionist material, and that changed my entire viewpoint. And again, my views aren't changed all that easily. I have read both exterminationist and revisionist material. God knows how much I've been brainwashed during school years, and from the TV, about how evil Nazis were, and how they exterminated 6 million Jews."

Pathological liar.

[Sip]

Holly crap fad for a sec I didn't realize you were quoting there

[Darorinag]

Pathological liar.

Listen, Fadix, either you keep civil, or I will ignore you. The only reason I haven't put you on my ignore list is that I am still hoping we can hold a civil discussion.

I am not lying. I have taken part in the holocaust commemoration ceremony at university. It was organized by the Jewish Student Federation. In fact, I read the names right after the President of the university. If you don't have proof that I didn't read those names, do not make such accusations. I had to skip my Human Anatomy class in the morning to read those names. I am not lying. I do not have a reason to lie.

And I must also admit, I am ashamed at having been so blind that I read those names. Now that I look back on it, I realize why I did it. I felt an obligation as an Armenian to do it.

[Fadix]

Originally posted by Darorinag Listen, Fadix, either you keep civil, or I will ignore you. The only reason I haven't put you on my ignore list is that I am still hoping we can hold a civil discussion.

I am not lying. I have taken part in the holocaust commemoration ceremony at university. It was organized by the Jewish Student Federation. In fact, I read the names right after the President of the university. If you don't have proof that I didn't read those names, do not make such accusations. I had to skip my Human Anatomy class in the morning to read those names. I am not lying. I do not have a reason to lie.

And I must also admit, I am ashamed at having been so blind that I read those names. Now that I look back on it, I realize why I did it. I felt an obligation as an Armenian to do it.

Dan, there has been quite some times you were registered on the other forum, and from that day one you already were a revisionist... you claim having read both sides yet you don't even know all the names of the "claimed" killing machines and even less have not read a single book that would bring the evidences... so yes you are lying.

[Darorinag]

OK, Fadi, whatever you say. You go on with your accusations, and I will go on ignoring you. Obviously, you're not interested in holding a discussion. And I am not surprised. Not many exterminationists want to.

If you want to continue the discussion, PM me and I will take you off the ignore list.

[Anonymouse]

This thread is pathetic, one obvious guy with Nazi slant and another pseudo intellectual with a egalitarian Holocaust slant. And the rest is just personal vendettas. I say can this thread already, the nerfbrains have taken over the asylum.