Diversity In France!

[Siamanto]

i was reading a thing on yahoo news and on a french blog website a member or supposed member said they were doing it to create a new france. since the guy was in his house on a damn blog website i doubt he was even a member of the groups doing it. but its a possiblity.

ArmenianKid,
You can't base your understanding on bravado and anecdotes. Maybe you know the expression: "lezoun vosgor tchouni."
No, it can't be a possibility; the rioters represent a negligible fraction of the population - much less than 0.01%. Their problems and views are not shared by the rest of the society.

[axel]

Mouse, don't be so judgemental!
seriously, you are mostly right in theory yet the situation is extremely complex in reality (there is a mix of cultural, ethnic, social, historical factors which would require at least a book to try to expose). you have very little knowledge, it appears, of the context, both past and present or else you would know (at the very least) that there is no such thing as "France", merely a putrified corpse with vultures circling around, trying to grab a remaining piece of flesh.
btw it is the so-called "right" who initiated the flooding of france with immigrants in the 70s with its policy of familial reunion ("regroupement familial"). valery giscard d'estaing (incidentally the father of the dead born EU charter), a liberal and trilateral member, was president at that time. this benefited and continues to benefit a number of private interests by providing them with cheap labor.
immigration wasn't chosen or accepted by the french people, it was imposed upon them with a systematic stigmatization of any form of opposition as racist, xenophobic...
now the situation has changed a bit as some see fit to exacerbate tensions with Islam but that is yet another subject...
it is difficult to have an idea of the particular climate of intellectual terror that has reigned in the french republic for the last sixty years unless one has lived there for a number of years.

one should not forget the UN plans for europe are for it to accept about 80 million immigrants by 2050. coupled with the spectacular demographical decline of european peoples (individualism, hedonism...), one should expect europe's ethnic composition to come close to that of the french football team


Siamanto, watching TV5 doesn't cut it either
the integration of african "influences" simply demonstrates the fact european cultures are dead.
it should be noted that "contemporary classical music" as you put it fails to find any audience outside of the pedantic. one must agree with Spengler that Tristan is at same time the apotheosis and the twilight of european music.

[Siamanto]

Mouse, don't be so judgemental!
seriously, you are mostly right in theory yet the situation is extremely complex in reality (there is a mix of cultural, ethnic, social, historical factors which would require at least a book to try to expose). you have very little knowledge, it appears, of the context, both past and present or else you would know (at the very least) that there is no such thing as "France", merely a putrified corpse with vultures circling around, trying to grab a remaining piece of flesh.
btw it is the so-called "right" who initiated the flooding of france with immigrants in the 70s with its policy of familial reunion ("regroupement familial"). valery giscard d'estaing (incidentally the father of the dead born EU charter), a liberal and trilateral member, was president at that time. this benefited and continues to benefit a number of private interests by providing them with cheap labor.
immigration wasn't chosen or accepted by the french people, it was imposed upon them with a systematic stigmatization of any form of opposition as racist, xenophobic...
now the situation has changed a bit as some see fit to exacerbate tensions with Islam but that is yet another subject...
it is difficult to have an idea of the particular climate of intellectual terror that has reigned in the french republic for the last sixty years unless one has lived there for a number of years.

one should not forget the UN plans for europe are for it to accept about 80 million immigrants by 2050. coupled with the spectacular demographical decline of european peoples (individualism, hedonism...), one should expect europe's ethnic composition to come close to that of the french football team

Most of the above characterizes all European and North American societies.
Furthermore, I don't see an issue in a football team that is multi - or mostly - ethnic.

Siamanto, watching TV5 doesn't cut it either

What makes you think that it is based on watching TV5? Assuming, I guess! Of course, since I live in the US, TV5 helps me to stay closer.

the integration of african "influences" simply demonstrates the fact european cultures are dead.

Not necessarily. It can also indicates the enrichment of the European Cultures with foreign elements. That is a subjective "point de vue."

it should be noted that "contemporary classical music" as you put it fails to find any audience outside of the pedantic.

It does not matter whether the public have only embraced the likes of Boulez, Stockhausen, Zimmerman, Sholler or...The general public did not even embrace Berg, Webern, Bartok or...
Still, European Classical Music had an overly underdeveloped rhythmic structure. It also had an extremely poor sound spectrum, as opposed to (Extreme) Oriental music.
Polyrhythmy and Spectral Analysis did enrich European Classical Music.

one must agree with Spengler that Tristan is at same time the apotheosis and the twilight of european music.

Must????????????? Again, that is a matter of taste and preference. I know many who may not even consider them as...

[Anonymouse]

Of course, ignorance is bliss. Why should we have enough understanding, knowledge of or exposure to about what we arrogantly state? Your recurrent cheap shots about France are quite noticeable. It would have been enjoyable or constructive, only if you had the minimal required exposure/knowledge.

So when someone disagrees with the ever omniscient Siamanto, he/she suffers from ignorance. How dare anyone! When did I ever state that somehow we should limit ourselves in our understanding? I only protested your poor and fallacious notion that somehow being in France, or having been to France was the prerequisite for discussing about France. I never claimed to have been there, nor to have a wise and all knowing outlook on France, but yet you have made this somehow the pinnacle of the whole discussion in order to have something to discuss.

As far as my alleged cheap shots at France, that exists only in the ever imaginitive confines of your mind, which no doubt is in love with France. I do not have any dislike for France. Criticisms of your cherished place perhaps may be misconstrued as such. However, I do have an opinion and a dislike of the trends that I, as an individual have noticed, not just in France, but everywhere else. This has nothing to do with visiting to France, or disliking France. I did not necessarily have to have been there to express my views.

Did anybody deny that - fortunately - France, like many other European countries, believes in and has integrated Socialistic values. Your oversimplifying model and understanding of Socialism is a bit immature and limited to mono-party regimes/experiences such as the Soviet Union. It it also conditioned by the US obsession with Socialism. You seem to have very little understanding of European Societies, their values and mechanisms. Of course, in many ways they are close to the US, but there exists enough differences that matter.

How do you know that my understanding of socialism is somehow based on mono-party regimes, or conditioned by US obsession with socialism? In fact, you don't know that, you just assume that to have some illusory ammo to go by in this internet discussion. Just in that blob of nonsense you have managed to pile up so many assumptions about me, it's like an orgy of assumptions, and is laughable. Yet, you expect to be taken seriously all the while deriding me for somehow not making this more "enjoyable" or "constructive", due to my lack of "required exposure/knowledge".

I do not prescribe to the U.S. governments ideas of what are or are not proper, and what is defined as socialism. Clearly you do not know me and how much contempt I have for this government, and the ideological tendencies that pervade. But here we see a double standard, although you will not admit, yet you engage in the same thing you accuse me of. You accuse me of forming opinions without having full knowledge of the shades in between, yet you engage in precisely the same thing with me, placing me in a monolothic idea of what you deem to be conditioning and typical American not thinking for himself.

I assure you that you need to travel and discover other models of society. Of course, traveling, here, does not mean tourism.

I'm sure travelling has it's benefits but that is not the issue here. You are creating an intellectual Berlin Wall around yourself and this discussion. In effect, you are engaging in a tactic that Fadix engaged in a while ago during the debates about the historicity of the Holocaust. During those discussions, he claimed that anyone who has not read Raul Hilberg's book was not qualified to engage in the discussion regarding the historicity of the Holocaust.

Similarly, here you are setting the bar at traveling. I do not need to travel or have previously engaged in travel, nor is that a prerequisite to allow someone to discuss something. Your self-absorbed and elitist approach is typical. It suggests that you, because you have traveled, are far better and beyond than those other plebians. Those that perhaps consider traveling as tourism, are somehow still not as high up there on the clouds with you, because they have chosen to engage in travel that is different from what you deem to be the proper travelling which will provide the "required exposure/knowledge". In other words, you assume that somehow through tourism people will not get "exposure/knowledge", or what you actually meant, the "required exposure/knowledge" which you deem to be sufficient, not whether they will get exposure or knowledge.

Yes you did state: "Had France respected its homogeneity it would not be in this situation."
Also, it's not about whether it would please or displease, it's about basing it on quality data and knowledge and having a constructive discussion or exchange of views. Your understanding of the French Society is very embryonic and distorted by the gossip one hears in the US.

Yes, I did state "Had France respected its homogeneity it would not be in this situation." In other words there was nothing about comparative points being discussed. I merely threw out an observation, nothing comparative. You squeezed that in for whatever reasons, perhaps just to show your intellectual candor. Anyone can look at France and walk in the streets of Paris and see that it won't be long before the French themselves are a minority. Ha! I'd give them 10 or 20 years. I do have relatives in Paris and Marseille and my aunt visited last year, as well as many friends. It's not like I am making these things up out of thin air, and you can even go into search mode and see that 40% of the current people in France are descended from these immigrant populations.

And yet again you assume that somehow I rely on "gossip" in the "US", as if I consider the U.S. the bastion of information, or whatever you mean by the "U.S." Do you mean the U.S. media, or U.S. government, or French folks I've known in the U.S.? Which would it be Mr. Siamanto, inquisitive minds desire to know!

I wonder who needs to "pay attention?"
Let me please remind you:

Yes, you need to pay attention . The point I was making, and which I already clarified, was the alleged cultural enrichment from dumping millions of foreign blood into your homeland, and which was strangely enough, the whole point of this thread. That is all. You don't have to like it, and it doesn't have to appease your egalitarian tendencies and bias, but that is the way it is.

[Anonymouse]

one should not forget the UN plans for europe are for it to accept about 80 million immigrants by 2050. coupled with the spectacular demographical decline of european peoples (individualism, hedonism...), one should expect europe's ethnic composition to come close to that of the french football team


Siamanto, watching TV5 doesn't cut it either
the integration of african "influences" simply demonstrates the fact european cultures are dead.
it should be noted that "contemporary classical music" as you put it fails to find any audience outside of the pedantic. one must agree with Spengler that Tristan is at same time the apotheosis and the twilight of european music.

[TomServo]

[axel]

Siamanto,

I am afraid people like you (and our friend enger garmir biber who has the excuse of young age) fail to see reality as it is and instead attempt to redefine it through their own ideological prism so that it fits the abstract and purely intellectual vision they have concocted in their head this is quite typical of the "french" left btw

with such an attitude you end up with totally nonsensical declarations such as that of former EU commissioner Emma Bonino: "notre identité, c'est notre avenir"
"Our identity is our future"
!!!!

France was not the artificial nation the republic made it into. it had a past, a religion, a culture. everyting was systematically leveled. complete tabula rasa. the french republic actually rests upon the negation and annihilation of french identity (and the EU project is just an extension of that)

the sad thing is that we see the exact same forces at work in Armenia, of course, with a slightly different ideological make-up. and it seems there is nothing to do about it unless there is a rebirth of national sentiment coupled with a true spiritual renaissance. for, this war we have to fight from within, first and foremost.

[bell-the-cat]

Since I myself feel queezy just glancing at that visual and intellectual atrocity, poor Anonymouse will probably have taken to his bed to recover from it.

[bell-the-cat]

Siamanto,

I am afraid people like you (and our friend enger garmir biber who has the excuse of young age) fail to see reality as it is and instead attempt to redefine it through their own ideological prism so that it fits the abstract and purely intellectual vision they have concocted in their head this is quite typical of the "french" left btw

with such an attitude you end up with totally nonsensical declarations such as that of former EU commissioner Emma Bonino: "notre identité, c'est notre avenir"
"Our identity is our future"
!!!!

France was not the artificial nation the republic made it into. it had a past, a religion, a culture. everyting was systematically leveled. complete tabula rasa. the french republic actually rests upon the negation and annihilation of french identity (and the EU project is just an extension of that)

The more you think of it, the more you realise that the French state and the Turkish state are surprisingly similar in their outlook towards their self-perceived national identity and their past. The French have just had an extra century or so to refine it. I'm sure there will be lots of literature out there on this subject (though probably none of them are by the French!).

[bell-the-cat]

Did anybody deny that - fortunately - France, like many other European countries, believes in and has integrated Socialistic values. Your oversimplifying model and understanding of Socialism is a bit immature and limited to mono-party regimes/experiences such as the Soviet Union. It it also conditioned by the US obsession with Socialism. You seem to have very little understanding of European Societies, their values and mechanisms. Of course, in many ways they are close to the US, but there exists enough differences that matter.

France is not a Socialistic society - it is a "bread and circus" society. Unlike other societies, the children of the working class stay working class and never rise, the middle class stay middle class and never rise or fall, the ruling class stay the ruling class generation after generation and never fall. The glue that sticks the edifice together is for everyone towards the bottom end of the pyramid to be subsidied and supported so that they have just enough for their station in life to be satisfied and not resort to riots and barricades and throwing cobblestones. French society is set up for it to always remain that way, since they remember the horrors of what it was like when society was entirely upset. Insert a rogue element into that cosy, smug arrangement, like a couple of million North Africans, and you are bound to have trouble.