War in The Middle East

[SoyElTurco]

Re: War in The Middle East

Idealism is a good thing but realism is better. Becoming religious does not mean We should be idiot.

If You are muslim, You should fight against your own country because of suppresion over muslims.(As we both know, Muslims are more free at UK or european countries.) will you?

You know the west has successfully achieved imposing its religion down the throats of non-westerners all over the world for the last 400 years? They continue to do so and expect peope to deal with them by interpreting things through their religion. Once we start talking about our own religion they immediately begin to call us "extremists" "radicals" "terrorists" "unrealistic" and what not.

This oppression stuff. think about. iraqi oil is stolen, metals from the congo and other afircan nations are stolen, oil from nigeria, angola, ecaudor and colombia is stolen. These people of these countries live in the mos despicable and inhumane conditions. The governments of these countries are all propped up by the western governments through the IMF and World Bank - essentially unilaterally imposing their own dictatorial governments on these people. Yet if any groups within these countries try to oppose these governments, they are silenced by violence and labeled terrorists.

All this stealing for what?

Why are most of these western governments creating all these horrendous atrocites for all these innocent people? Oh yeah, it so obvious: they need to make sure prices are low for their consumer citizens. So every british and american could drive an truck to a bar or disco every friday night to have an orgy, get drunk, vomit and have sex in their vomit. This is what these people do with their "freedom." This kind of freedom only works if someone else is paying for it, because this "freedom" eventually destroys itself. Do you think every single american and british love one another? its all garbage. americans and other europeans are all cannibals. - thats realism for you.

once i start talking we muslims should be together and not become like the consumer hedonistic west - does that make me an "idealist?" No. I am dispensing pragmatic and essential advice like "stop smoking because it causes cancer."

Palavra, canım kardeşim, don't fall in to bullsh¡t.

[Palavra]

Re: War in The Middle East

if you're muslim, you're not supposed to think like that.

Idealism is a good thing but realism is better. Becoming religious does not mean We should be idiot.

If You are muslim, You should fight against your own country because of suppresion over muslims.(As we both know, Muslims are more free at UK or european countries.) will you?

I should add, Hamas was as disgusting as Israel. Both dont care for life of innocents and we can do nothing about this. No need to make, Israel our enemy. We should stay neutral and just help victims. Not israel or hamas.

the AKP is consolidating its position by alligning itself with public opinion in this issue.

AKP should lead public opinion, not to follow it. Specially, When we are so emotional..

[Armanen]

Re: War in The Middle East

Notice how many joos tend to always associate anti-israeli actions as anti-jooish too, which is of course a logical fallacy. It's akin to saying all zionists are joos.

[SoyElTurco]

Re: War in The Middle East

Israelis evicted from New Zealand cafe
By Dan Goldberg · January 16, 2009

SYDNEY, Australia (JTA) – A Muslim cafe owner in New Zealand evicted two customers because they were Israeli.

Mustafa Tekinkaya, a Muslim from Turkey, heard Natalie Bennie and Tamara Shefa speaking Hebrew at his cafe in Invercargill on the South Island earlier this week and ordered them out.

“He heard us speaking Hebrew and he asked us where we were from,” Mrs Bennie told the local newspaper. “I said Israel and he said ‘get out, I am not serving you’. It was shocking.”

Tekinkaya said he was protesting Israel’s action in the Gaza Strip.

“I have decided as a protest not to serve Israelis until the war stops,” he said.

A complaint was lodged with the Human Rights Commission. New Zealand's race relations commissioner said Tekinkaya was in breach of the law.

Israel’s ambassador to New Zealand Yuval Rotem was scathing. “This anti-Israeli and anti-xxxish sentiment needs to be stopped,” he told The Southland Times.

“At this moment you don't need to bring the Middle East into New Zealand ... you need to take the spirit of New Zealand into the Middle East.” New Zealand is iconic among Israelis as being an outpost of civility.

Also this week, more than 100 pro-Israel supporters rallied on the steps of Parliament in Wellington, the capital. Holding olive branches, they held a minute’s silence for the 1,000-plus people who have been killed in the conflict.

Meanwhile, Father Gerard Burns, the Catholic priest who defaced a memorial to Yitzhak Rabin last week with paint and drops of blood, appears to have emerged unscathed from the incident. He has not apologized, and Wellington’s Catholic Church has not censured him, although Archbishop John Dew has apologized for father Burns’ actions.

Police have yet to decide whether they will lay charges.

Taken from: http://jta.org/news/article/2009/01/...w-zealand-cafe

[hipeter924]

Re: War in The Middle East

Zionism in Gaza’s Shattered Mirror
Thursday, 15 January 2009, 9:19 am
Column: M. Shahid Alam

Zionism in Gaza’s Shattered Mirror

by M. Shahid Alam

At a time when Palestinian men, women and children, corralled in the ghetto of Gaza since 1948, are daily, hourly, relentlessly, being bombed from the air, land and sea, it is instructive to turn to some of the founding fathers of Zionism, and ask what they might have thought about this obscene consequence of their messianic vision.

In the writings of these founding fathers, the Palestinians rarely merit even a passing reference. You can pore through one of the earliest statements of the Zionist credo, Moses Hess’ Rome and Jerusalem, but you will find not a single reference to ‘Muslims’ or ‘Arabs.’ Twice, the word ‘Palestinian’ enters this venerated text; the first time, it appears in connection with the training of xxxish youth for the “life of a Palestinian farmer;’ and the second refers to the ‘Jerushalmi Palestinian Talmud Sanhedrin.’ Palestine always exists, inscribed on some divine tablet, as Israeli land; but there are no Palestinians.

If you search Theodore Herzl’s The xxxish State, you come away with the same disappointing results. It contains not a single reference to Muslims, Arabs or Palestinians: or even Bedouins. Incredibly, a search through Arthur Hertzberg’s The Zionist Idea, a classic anthology of excerpts from several generations of Zionist thinkers, produced identical results. The Muslims, Arabs or Palestinians never entered into their plans for a xxxish state. To use a term from Lawrence Davidson, this is ‘perceptual depopulation’ of Palestine, at its extreme.

Nearly from the outset, the Zionists exuded power. Palestine was a thing to be bought; and if it was not for sale, they would take it by force. Twice, Rabbi Kalischer urged the head of the Rothschild family and Moses Montefiore to buy Palestine – or, at least, Jerusalem – from the Ottoman Sultan. More than once, Theodore Herzl too offered to buy Palestine from the Ottoman Sultan. He was told, it was not for sale.

That would not derail Zionist plans; they could persuade one or more European powers to take it for the xxxs by force. In 1818, Mordecai Noah, an early American Zionist, proposed that the xxxs could create their own army and do it themselves. Nearly all Zionists were more pragmatic: they decided to let the Europeans do it for them.

This is how Theodore Herzl laid out his plan for creating a xxxish state. “Let the sovereignty be granted us over a portion of the globe large enough to satisfy the rightful requirements of a nation; the rest we shall manage for ourselves (italics added).” Hidden in that innocuous ‘the rest’ are the unmentionable people who inhabited Palestine. Two agencies would suffice to carry out this plan: The Society of xxxs and The xxxish Company.

In the plan that Herzl worked out, The Society of xxxs would “treat with the present masters of the land [the Ottomans], putting itself under the protectorate of the European powers…” Herzl adds that the “creation of our state would be beneficial to adjacent countries…;” but the people living there go unmentioned.

However, Herzl does pay careful attention to more weighty matters, such as how best to get rid of the “wild beasts” in the country they would appropriate. The methods used to colonize Palestine (or Argentina) would have to be modern, using the latest technology. “It is foolish,” he explains, “to revert to old stages of civilization, as many Zionists would like to do.”

Here is how the Zionists should work, Herzl explained, if they “were obliged to clear a country of wild beasts…” “We should not take spear and lance,” he emphasizes, “and go out singly in pursuit of bears; we should organize a large and lively hunting party, drive the animals together, and throw a melinite bomb into their midst (italics added).”

It is most unlikely that Herzl was speaking – even subconsciously, I will grant – of the Palestinians when he explains for the benefit of xxxish colons, how to clear their colony of “wild beasts” such as “bears.”


Nevertheless, who can escape noticing the eerie parallels between the methods that he proposes to get rid of the “wild beasts” and the strategy and tactics that xxxish colonists have adopted since 1948 to clear Palestine of its indigenous population?

Already, in the 1930s, the Yishuv had created “a large and lively hunting party” called the Haganah that would grow very quickly after 1948 into one of the most formidable militaries in the world.

In 1948, this “large and lively hunting party” would launch its first massive drive to “clear” Palestine of the “wild” Palestinians. The “hunting party” has since worked to ensure that the “wild” Palestinian refugees would never return to their lands. Whenever the “wild” Palestinians have ventured out of their refugee pens to re-enter or reclaim their lands, the “hunting party” has deterred them by throwing “a melinite bomb in their midst.”

A second drive to clear out the “wild” Palestinians was launched in 1967, when a much-expanded “hunting party” captured all of Palestine.

After 1967, the Israeli “hunting party” began to implement a new plan for clearing out the West Bank and Gaza of the “wild” Palestinians. Eager to make room for new cohorts of xxxish settlers, the “hunting party” began to “drive…together” the “wild” Palestinians into ever-smaller enclaves within these newly acquired territories.

In Gaza, the Israeli plans began to run into difficulty with the start of the Second Intifada in 2000. The Islamist Hamas had been gaining strength in the heavily overcrowded and miserable pens to which the Palestinians had been confined since 1948. In preparation for a new approach to neutralizing the besieged Palestinians, Israel adopted a new approach in 2005. It removed its “hunting party,” including xxxish settlers, out of harm’s way, as it moved to seal Gaza’s borders, the better to throw “melinite bombs into their midst.”

It is the ghastly culmination of this new strategy we have been witnessing in Gaza over the past weeks.

Israel is the crowning achievement of modernity in our times, of the rational, efficient and ruthless pursuit of power for one tribe; its success depends now, as in the past, on the massive deployment of “melinite bombs” against virtually unarmed “wild beasts.”

In the words of Herzl, again, Israel seeks to complete its colonial-settler enterprise “in a bolder and more stately style than was ever adopted before, for we now possess means which men never yet possessed.”

Yet, for more than a hundred years since the launching of the Zionist project, the “wild” Palestinians have remained undefeated. For more than thirty years, they faced the “iron wall of British bayonets;” and since 1948, they have courageously stood up against the thickening “iron wall of xxxish bayonets.”

The Palestinians have one resource the Zionists do not have: they have justice on their side.

Yet, justice has not always prevailed when it has been overmatched by brute force. America's dead natives can testify to that. That is the hope that drives Israelis; they are sustained by their conviction that they “possess means which men never yet possessed.”

Perhaps, world conscience will wake up in time to convince the Zionists to the contrary. Perhaps, this can happen before it is too late, before the tide of history has turned decisively against Israel.

Israel can only be sustained if it can score repeated victories against the peoples of the Middle East – clear, quick and stunning victories, like those of 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1982. That has been changing, starting with Israel's unilateral retreat from Lebanon in 2000. Then there was Israel's costly and transparent failure to attain any of its objectives with the massive onslaught against Hizbullah in 2006. Israel faces another failure against Hamas now, against a much weaker foe.

How will Israel save face after this? Will they persist in their attempt to destroy the Palestinians, with a new generation of “melinite bombs” dispatched from the United States? Alternatively, will Israeli mothers force Israeli warmongers to make a sincere determination to make amends to the Palestinians and learn to live with them in a non-racist society?

Let us hope that Israelis – at last – will make the right choice.

*************

M. Shahid Alam is professor of economics at Northeastern University. He is author of Challenging the New Orientalism (2007). Send comments to [email protected]. Visit the author’s website at http://aslama.org.

[hipeter924]

Re: War in The Middle East

Israel has no respect for international borders or human rights which was shown when it invaded Lebanon. So I think its about time that the Arab world started breaking ties with Israel because Israel is dangerous and only cares about its own interests.

[SoyElTurco]

Re: War in The Middle East

I just said what I believe true.

Anyway, I think that I may accept some harm to Turkish benefits for Palestinian childrens. But Still It is foolish

if you're muslim, you're not supposed to think like that.


and to satisfy your theory about self interest:http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_...ash=cea02c37f1

the AKP is consolidating its position by alligning itself with public opinion in this issue.

[Palavra]

Re: War in The Middle East

I just said what I believe true.

Anyway, I think that I may accept some harm to Turkish benefits for Palestinian childrens. But Still It is foolish (So np, USA can accept AG.)

[Federate]

Re: War in The Middle East

Why? who said I am pro-israel(I dislike their war style, kill 10 innocent for one terrorist.) and Generals will not take over again. Only result would be, recognition of AG at USA and I dont care about it.(As I said before, I am neutral at that issue.)

I did not say you were pro-Israel. I thought you were against Turkey taking the side of the Palestinians, remember this?

Turkey has nothing to gain support Hamas and everything to loose fight against israel. Still, We are trying our best against israel and Unlike Egypt we are trying to do something.

(I think, It is still stupid act. That is against the biggest rule of international politics. Follow your own benefit.)

[Palavra]

Re: War in The Middle East

Very good Mr. Erdogan!!! Palavra, you will not like this . I'm really just counting down the days before the generals take over, again.

Why? who said I am pro-israel(I dislike their war style, kill 10 innocent for one terrorist.) and Generals will not take over again. Only result would be, recognition of AG at USA and I dont care about it.(As I said before, I am neutral at that issue.)