Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

[hagopn]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

That answer always sounds wonderful on paper until you realize that we have to live in groups, and the groups, such as our ethnicity, not just any group identity, are as important as our individual identity and the only macro group that really matters. It is to go to the extreme of naivete if you believe in the "greater human family." (Otherwise, why an ARmenian forum at all?). Such a utopic vision can only happen if there is massive arrested development (no true purpose, direction or will of one's own, no lofty ambitions or idealism, not really, merely low level impulses masquerading as "lofty individualist/democratic ideals") in the short term. In the longer term, things are looking even more bleak. The only real guarantee, as always in the modern era, is strong cultural a form of nationalism, and marriage should support that, preferably a conscious and religiously voluntary (yes, voluntary and infinitely more autonomous than the so-called "individualist" alternative subject to the whims of, at best, mercantile forces, at best) effort would be the ideal. Yet, in this age of rapid communication and rapid indoctrination, which serves all sorts of "individualism" oriented large interests (I highly suggest you take seriously and note the extreme irony, mostly "consumerist" and by default anti-group consciousness and thus anti-nationalist), nations need a nation state as the only functioning and viable support structure for their way of life, marriage being central to this, their inherited group identity, which, in the case of ARmenians, is worth the while.

You seems to be a leftist, and leftists eventually also lose sight of the reason even for nuclear families. After all, Marx said that already has occurred the moment you urbanize, which is nonsense, but Marx specialized in intellectualized nonsense. These women are obviously aware of something, or have been socialized to be aware, beyond personal needs and fulfillment. Russian men are finally seeing that need and as part of being stronger and more worthy men, while ARmenian men, who knew that very well, are slowly starting to lose sight of it. That needs to stop.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

Hopefully we will get back the reputation of a respectful and conservative nationality and culture

A society with a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" ALWAYS means a society with a complete disrespect for and lack of value of women. And one with fear of, and active hostility towards, the individual in general.

[Mher]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

A society with a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" ALWAYS means a society with a complete disrespect for and lack of value of women. And one with fear of, and active hostility towards, the individual in general.

no it doesn't, that's your liberal interpretation of it. There's no reason why your slippery slope argument has to be true. There's no reason you cannot have a reasonably conservative society like America and Western Europe had in its past without slipping into Saudi Arabia. There is much more respect for woman in that society than in modern Western Society that leads to the degrading of the nuclear family

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

no it doesn't, that's your liberal interpretation of it. There's no reason why your slippery slope argument has to be true. There's no reason you cannot have a reasonably conservative society like America and Western Europe had in its past without slipping into Saudi Arabia. There is much more respect for woman in that society than in modern Western Society that leads to the degrading of the nuclear family

Of course part of your idea of what a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" does is to never ask women what they want - so it would never enter your head to ask any woman whether they think your alleged paradise of "a reasonably conservative society like America and Western Europe had in its past" would have been any paradise for them. Bigots like you - whether in Armenia or Saudi Arabia or Greece or anywhere, always seem to think "respect" means enforcing their will over others and telling others what they cannot do. I wonder what dictionary you use, an opposite-of-actual-meaning dictionary?

[hagopn]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

A society with a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" ALWAYS means a society with a complete disrespect for and lack of value of women. And one with fear of, and active hostility towards, the individual in general.

Actually, just the reverse is true. Conservatism is something women prefer even more than men. Hence the dedication to even extreme patriarchal societies with really negligible exceptions. Women have done well with the model Armenians had in rural and urban settings. Armenian writers were willing to deal with the topic of women's rights at least to the point where writers such as Zabel Yessayan would be respected as an intellectual. Unfortunately, the backwards eastern mentality does have a thick residue, but the entire point about the respectfulness of the conservatism advocated is that it is all inclusive, provided that it does protect the group identity.

Your stance is that of a leftist radical who sees only evil in group think, while the same sort of ultra-leftists are absolutely tyrannical in their enforcement of state based totalitarianism to enforce "individual rights" that en up as being no rights at all. Case in point, every single instance where Marxism has been implemented. The idea, the core of the radical "individualist" propaganda and desire for social engineering at the expense of existing, and funcitoning, group identities is precisely to wield the power away from the natural leadership of that group to the benefit of whoever the interested party is, whether it is single-minded ambitious group such as any given Marxist or Fascist outcropping, a corporate or business interest, or a symbiosis of both. There are very few exceptions to this rule.

Why, indeed, are certain people so hard strung into discrediting nationalism with such lies? it's a question that can only be answered by the counter-punch to nationalism, which is always imperialism of some sort.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

Actually, just the reverse is true. Conservatism is something women prefer even more than men. Hence the dedication to even extreme patriarchal societies with really negligible exceptions. Women have done well with the model Armenians had in rural and urban settings. Armenian writers were willing to deal with the topic of women's rights at least to the point where writers such as Zabel Yessayan would be respected as an intellectual. Unfortunately, the backwards eastern mentality does have a thick residue, but the entire point about the respectfulness of the conservatism advocated is that it is all inclusive, provided that it does protect the group identity.

Your stance is that of a leftist radical who sees only evil in group think, while the same sort of ultra-leftists are absolutely tyrannical in their enforcement of state based totalitarianism to enforce "individual rights" that en up as being no rights at all. Case in point, every single instance where Marxism has been implemented. The idea, the core of the radical "individualist" propaganda and desire for social engineering at the expense of existing, and funcitoning, group identities is precisely to wield the power away from the natural leadership of that group to the benefit of whoever the interested party is, whether it is single-minded ambitious group such as any given Marxist or Fascist outcropping, a corporate or business interest, or a symbiosis of both. There are very few exceptions to this rule.

Why, indeed, are certain people so hard strung into discrediting nationalism with such lies? it's a question that can only be answered by the counter-punch to nationalism, which is always imperialism of some sort.

You really think Zabel Yesayan was respected?

Get yourself to Afghanistan - you will be at home there: an extreme patriarchal society to your liking, and the women there just love it too! You will love their future president - his manifesto bans women studying engineering because because he thinks womens brains are not designed for heavy thinking and ther bodies not designed for lifting things.

But what a strange world view you hold. In it, do dinosaurs still roam the earth? Dinosaurs and Marxists and ultra-leftists and similar extinct creatures. I think the last living real "Marxist" will be some elderly Frenchman in a care home for retired philosophers! But we are still more likely to see a real live Marxist than a female online Armenian - so there won't be any around to contest your "Conservatism is something women prefer" claim. I guess conservatism includes keeping them off the internet.

Now where was it that a law was proposed obliging women visiting internet cafes to be accompanied by a male who would supervise their online activities? Turkey?

[hagopn]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

You really think Zabel Yesayan was respected?

Yes. There is no reason to think otherwise.

Get yourself to Afghanistan - you will be at home there: an extreme patriarchal society to your liking, and the women there just love it too! You will love their future president - his manifesto bans women studying engineering because because he thinks womens brains are not designed for heavy thinking and ther bodies not designed for lifting things.

Evoking extreme examples to discredit legitimate models is nothing new to this fellow. Armenian society has not been, and cannot be, anything of the sort. This reads like the typical ignorant bigot who still think camels are roaming Yerevan, and perhaps that is the fellow's goal.

But what a strange world view you hold. In it, do dinosaurs still roam the earth? Dinosaurs and Marxists and ultra-leftists and similar extinct creatures.

Note the usage of exaggerated comparisons as a form of ridicule, the comparison of Marxism, an ideology that is alive and well in many countries and institutions, with dinosaurs. In fact, Marxists often deny their associations when running for office in this exact same manner. Here the man denies that western Marxism exists and that Marxist mentality is among the overall leftism that permeates "liberalism" of today. There is no such thing as "liberalism" that is in fact free of leftist, therefore also Marxist perhaps as a subset, perhaps not, thought. One only has to visit any given "anti-nationalist" site and see that the principal inspiration is from Marx or other Marxist figures such as Che Guevara.

I think the last living real "Marxist" will be some elderly Frenchman in a care home for retired philosophers! But we are still more likely to see a real live Marxist than a female online Armenian - so there won't be any around to contest your "Conservatism is something women prefer" claim. I guess conservatism includes keeping them off the internet.

More fuzzy nonsense under the pretense of factual statements: "French janitor cleaning toilets for old philosophers" and so on. Marxism is increasingly popular among the younger university students, and Che Guevara is more popular than ever before. In fact, the entire "Occupy Wall Street" movement and its offshoots have roots in Marxist associations in these very universities.

It is a fact that women, in the west as well as it is becoming evident, prefer conservatism due to the balance and stability it offers. The trend of "coming out" on this topic perhaps started with Taylor Caldwell in the 1970s, but took a pivotal leap with Danielle Crittenden in the 1990s. Hardly are these women advocating the silly English model, the "women are trophies" Victorianism, and the ARmenians, interestingly, were ahead of the west with our own Zabel Yessayan, about whom Mr Fuzzy Bash The Nationalist probably knows little if nothing about.

Here is an interesting article on Caldwell, but, as things go, the LA Times reporter was also a bell-the-catt "bash the conservative with half-truths" sort: http://articles.latimes.com/1985-09-...rcial-artist/2

Here's Crittenden's original opus that made a lot of waves and changed priorities for millions of women, back to conservatism, but with an interesting balance that the Brits in their Victorian heydey couldn't figure out: i.e. Something that ARmenians always knew, that women can participate fully, hence the women's vote in 1918 Armenia: http://www.amazon.com/WHAT-OUR-MOTHE.../dp/0684859599

But, then again, hardly does this man above intend to be honest in anything he writes.

Now where was it that a law was proposed obliging women visiting internet cafes to be accompanied by a male who would supervise their online activities? Turkey?

Here, we are reminded again with the implication that anything a nationalist conservative says is "equal to and must be associated with Turkey."

it is a rather annoying tick, almost like picking one's nose.

[hagopn]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

Quote Originally Posted by Mher View Post
no it doesn't, that's your liberal interpretation of it. There's no reason why your slippery slope argument has to be true. There's no reason you cannot have a reasonably conservative society like America and Western Europe had in its past without slipping into Saudi Arabia. There is much more respect for woman in that society than in modern Western Society that leads to the degrading of the nuclear family

This above by Mher is actually a very reasonable statement.

Below, however, the kaleidoscopic engine called bell-the-cat, transforms it into something entirely different.

Of course part of your idea of what a "respectful and conservative nationality and culture" does is to never ask women what they want - so it would never enter your head to ask any woman whether they think your alleged paradise of "a reasonably conservative society like America and Western Europe had in its past" would have been any paradise for them. Bigots like you - whether in Armenia or Saudi Arabia or Greece or anywhere, always seem to think "respect" means enforcing their will over others and telling others what they cannot do. I wonder what dictionary you use, an opposite-of-actual-meaning dictionary?

Oh, "of course," sure, "yeah, "wink, wink." "We know what you really mean, wink wink." "When you say nuclear family, you really mean burkas and acid in the face."

This fellow is simply incredible; funny in a butt-of-the-joke sort of way, but quite the muse.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

The occupy movement is badly needed in American society and it is a shame that it is not more active. The fascist style laws which have been passed may have something to do with it being less active. I think you guys are drifting off topic here - perhaps opening another thread would be appropriate..

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian with a not-Armenian girl

The occupy movement is badly needed in American society and it is a shame that it is not more active. The fascist style laws which have been passed may have something to do with it being less active. I think you guys are drifting off topic here - perhaps opening another thread would be appropriate..

The occupy movement originated in American society. The reason it was oppossed so violently was that it was aiming big.

In Armenia it has been smaller - so not so strongly opposed - and maybe more focused, limited to opposing minibus fare rises, oligarchs' kiosks, illegal developments by politicians and oligarchs, and park destructions and so on. And, like its equivalent in Turkey, it originated in concerns over environmental destruction. I don't know if you made posts on those events, and if they were the typical posts of typical online Armenians (opposing anything positive done by others, supporting the church-state-criminal oligarchy that rules Armenia, and full of bile and personal insults). I'm sure Hagopn would have been making them if he had been around. Here it is always safe to assume the worst: it may not start out the worst but it will always end up at it.