Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

[Gunner14]

Re: Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

So lets come to the critical point:
Why do I refer ASALA? To find excuses? No, I will tell below:
First of all, I don't have a persistance for not to call 1915 as genocide. Yes you can give me a definition of genocide and compare 1915 with that definition and come to a conclusion that 1915 was a genocide. The problem here is the term of "genocide" and this so famous "clash of civilisations" How?
Lets once forget Turks-Armenians and think about all genocides. All your examples are Sudan, Cambodia...? What was our definition of Mr Lempkin? What about USA, France, Belgium, Spain? What USA did to Natives perfectly match with that definition. What French did to Algerians, too. What Spanish did for Native Americans? We talk about 1.5 million, there was 25 million native americans before westerns invade the continent. Where are they? Lets come to ASALA to make you understand why Turks don't accept the genocide like this. I don't remember that USA accept that they made genocide, you live at USA so you probably know better than me. ASALA, liberation, justice... very nice words. WHY DO YOU ALWAYS FEEL YOURSELF AS MORALLY SUPERIOR? When Turks did a crime it is crime, but if Armenians bomb airports, kill passengers, murder innocent people who have no relation with your genocide...You even can not call them as murderers. Why? Because you are the good guys. Because Armenians belong to the western civilisation (at least you try to show like it) Because you are Christian. Because you are civilised, when muslim terrorists kill 2000 people at WTC it is a tragedy. But when USA kill 100.000's at Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam...it is just statistics. Because western people have families, they have a life. Others?
I frankly don't like the image and stereotypes that you use to promote your case.

Lets just confess my friend, your people do not believe that a Turk and an Armenian is not equal. Thats why you always try to proove that you are westerner, white, civilised...And Turks are "asiatic", "mongolian", "savage", "barbarian"...

If you continue to support your case with these kind of arguments you will always face with a reaction from the Turkish side. Thats why I believe that the problem should be solved between Turks in Turkey and Armenians in Armenia. Because the emotional problems of diaspora makes the problem deadlock.
Again I repeat, I dont discuss about the genocide itself. I just want to focus how "genocide" is seen from your side and our side.

You got me wrong...... I denounce ASALA's way of doing things. I konw they murdered..... im not denying that why would u say I was? that's just dumb....

Again you bring up other things. why?

Native Americans? Do you know what kind of privillages the Native Americans Have in the USA...... many... and do you know why, becouse the US government has recognized the "genocide" that happend to them even though it occoured 200 years, yes 200 years before they existed...thats like 4 generations....

That's fine by me, let Turkey ackgnowledge some sort of wrong doing in 1915... and let armenians build casinos and our lands tax free.... that sound fair??



You're comparing the Iraq war with the ARmenian genocide? are you kidding me??

I thought you were different but you too are "muhomidised" as i call it....

You're comparing a war involving two countries with millitaries, who were aware that the one would attack the other if certain things didn't happen.... to

A Government killing it's own citizens ....... TURKEY!!!

And I see you're trying to protect the MUSLIM image... and saying wester world sees you as monsters and barbarians... I don't want to get into that........ lets just say fanaticism hasn't been good to your religion....

Now i'm glad you believe what happend in 1915 was genocide...and rational person could see that....

So now what?

Are you saying becaue other countries got away with it Turkey shoud too??? is this an ethical and moral way of living???

Seeing as how moral and ethical the Islam world is.... I would think Turkey would do the right thing..and say yes the ottoma government did a terrible thing...and we are willing offer these reparations... will never ever happend do you know why??? <---- because muslims like the judas... and christians all think they have some kind of superiority because they believe in a God....... that's why attaturk had one good thing about him.... he was a secularist, because he realized the downfall of religion... smart man he was no doubting that.... but this isn't a religious discussion.... we are talking about a government trying to get rid of all of a certain type of group from it's country... and in particular Armenia and turkey

Right now I'm talking to you about the 1915 genocide, if we both can agree that it was a genocide why are we still arguing???

First lets settle this.... and then, if it matters to us we can resolve other "genocides" that you think happend.....


Vietnam? Do you know how much money USA gave vietnam for the damage it caused?

Iraq??? I'm sure you read the paper so you knwo how much money it gives to the new Iraqi government

Japan??? Usa Gave billions in damages for 1944.....

The point is they recognize what they did in retrospect, and attempt to offer some appology...

Turks??? hahaa..... they think they are Allah's gift to the world..... everything they do is justifyed....

[Gunner14]

Re: Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

hmmm...posts are getting really off topic..

Actually this very "on topic." isn't this a thread about dating turks?

Well if we are disscussing Turks....that's on topic eh?

[gizzy]

Re: Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

hmmm...posts are getting really off topic..

[exfo]

Re: Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

^ I stopped reading once i got to the "I don't know if it was genocide" part....

Good for you, you single handed have given me hope that there are rational and sensible Turkies in the world...

Now I go back and read the rest


Ok Im back....

We (your side and my side) need to stop talking about ASALA they were a Armenian politcal orginization (call them terrorist if you like) i don't think they meet today's definition of terrorist, but whatever.... what does ASALA's activities have to do with if Talat and Enver???

ASALA is a different discussion - we can talk about political violence and terrorism and revolutionaries... but I feel they belong on another thread... and really it makes me feel like you don't have enough substance to defend the denying of the genocide in a hisotrical context therefor you (your side) must bring up ASALA....

BTW, are there any Turkish terrorist groups??? perhaps.. eh?

Back to 1915.....

Just to clear things up.... I (my side) believes the ottoman government wanted/planned to destroy ALL armenians...from Anatolia and succeeded to a great degree.

And you (your side) believe that they were just migrating the Armenians out of Anatolia...... and in the process Kurds and soldiers and a "few bad apples" killed armenians.... ?

Good summary?

I seriously want to discuss further why I believe this was a form of Genocide as defined by Lemkin .... but i am just soo excited that you (a Turk) have come this far...


If (if) I could show proof that Talat Pasha...and some other Young Turk Party members .... openly discussed the "destruction" of the Armenians AND will you consider that Maybe there were Ottoman Officials... .who had the idea of getting rid of All the Armenians??? will you..????

And... this is important.........

Genocide - to destroy some race, or religion, or a group of people ..... (something like that im not going to do research) the Key word is "destroy"
that doesn't mean kill each person one by one...... you can deprive people of water and basic necessities... and claim that they just died of natural causes ---- which in a sense is what you're doing...... but if you (not you per say) but a person who wants to rid of Armenians...... all you do is take them to the desert claim they are being deported... (where? no ones for sure).... and on the way 75% die...

To me and I'm not a international law expert or anything, but to me I interpret as Genocide as defined by mr. lempkin.

I think INTENT is part of the definition of genocide.... so if you even try........ Just Try.... it's genocide.....

BTW how do you say stupid things like the xxxish genocide is the only genocide?? Come on...... Dafour, Cambodia, Sudan..... if you don't think these were genocides.... Im beginning to see why Turks and the rest of the world don't see eye to eye on the defenition of genocide....

ok.. good night, or good morning depending where you are....

So lets come to the critical point:
Why do I refer ASALA? To find excuses? No, I will tell below:
First of all, I don't have a persistance for not to call 1915 as genocide. Yes you can give me a definition of genocide and compare 1915 with that definition and come to a conclusion that 1915 was a genocide. The problem here is the term of "genocide" and this so famous "clash of civilisations" How?
Lets once forget Turks-Armenians and think about all genocides. All your examples are Sudan, Cambodia...? What was our definition of Mr Lempkin? What about USA, France, Belgium, Spain? What USA did to Natives perfectly match with that definition. What French did to Algerians, too. What Spanish did for Native Americans? We talk about 1.5 million, there was 25 million native americans before westerns invade the continent. Where are they? Lets come to ASALA to make you understand why Turks don't accept the genocide like this. I don't remember that USA accept that they made genocide, you live at USA so you probably know better than me. ASALA, liberation, justice... very nice words. WHY DO YOU ALWAYS FEEL YOURSELF AS MORALLY SUPERIOR? When Turks did a crime it is crime, but if Armenians bomb airports, kill passengers, murder innocent people who have no relation with your genocide...You even can not call them as murderers. Why? Because you are the good guys. Because Armenians belong to the western civilisation (at least you try to show like it) Because you are Christian. Because you are civilised, when muslim terrorists kill 2000 people at WTC it is a tragedy. But when USA kill 100.000's at Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam...it is just statistics. Because western people have families, they have a life. Others?
I frankly don't like the image and stereotypes that you use to promote your case.

Lets just confess my friend, your people do not believe that a Turk and an Armenian is not equal. Thats why you always try to proove that you are westerner, white, civilised...And Turks are "asiatic", "mongolian", "savage", "barbarian"...

If you continue to support your case with these kind of arguments you will always face with a reaction from the Turkish side. Thats why I believe that the problem should be solved between Turks in Turkey and Armenians in Armenia. Because the emotional problems of diaspora makes the problem deadlock.
Again I repeat, I dont discuss about the genocide itself. I just want to focus how "genocide" is seen from your side and our side.

[Gunner14]

Re: Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

^ I stopped reading once i got to the "I don't know if it was genocide" part....

Good for you, you single handed have given me hope that there are rational and sensible Turkies in the world...

Now I go back and read the rest


Ok Im back....

We (your side and my side) need to stop talking about ASALA they were a Armenian politcal orginization (call them terrorist if you like) i don't think they meet today's definition of terrorist, but whatever.... what does ASALA's activities have to do with if Talat and Enver???

ASALA is a different discussion - we can talk about political violence and terrorism and revolutionaries... but I feel they belong on another thread... and really it makes me feel like you don't have enough substance to defend the denying of the genocide in a hisotrical context therefor you (your side) must bring up ASALA....

BTW, are there any Turkish terrorist groups??? perhaps.. eh?

Back to 1915.....

Just to clear things up.... I (my side) believes the ottoman government wanted/planned to destroy ALL armenians...from Anatolia and succeeded to a great degree.

And you (your side) believe that they were just migrating the Armenians out of Anatolia...... and in the process Kurds and soldiers and a "few bad apples" killed armenians.... ?

Good summary?

I seriously want to discuss further why I believe this was a form of Genocide as defined by Lemkin .... but i am just soo excited that you (a Turk) have come this far...


If (if) I could show proof that Talat Pasha...and some other Young Turk Party members .... openly discussed the "destruction" of the Armenians AND will you consider that Maybe there were Ottoman Officials... .who had the idea of getting rid of All the Armenians??? will you..????

And... this is important.........

Genocide - to destroy some race, or religion, or a group of people ..... (something like that im not going to do research) the Key word is "destroy"
that doesn't mean kill each person one by one...... you can deprive people of water and basic necessities... and claim that they just died of natural causes ---- which in a sense is what you're doing...... but if you (not you per say) but a person who wants to rid of Armenians...... all you do is take them to the desert claim they are being deported... (where? no ones for sure).... and on the way 75% die...

To me and I'm not a international law expert or anything, but to me I interpret as Genocide as defined by mr. lempkin.

I think INTENT is part of the definition of genocide.... so if you even try........ Just Try.... it's genocide.....

BTW how do you say stupid things like the xxxish genocide is the only genocide?? Come on...... Dafour, Cambodia, Sudan..... if you don't think these were genocides.... Im beginning to see why Turks and the rest of the world don't see eye to eye on the defenition of genocide....

ok.. good night, or good morning depending where you are....

[exfo]

Re: Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

Thank you for your response.... but now, you're beginning to make excuses...

And most deniers are just making excueses.

So you're saying if ASALA hadn't killed 15 turkish diplomats in the last 30 years.....

maybe Turks would recognize the Genocide?

Would open discussion to a reconciliation?

Would not hate Armenians?

I'm not calling you a criminal and I am not accusing you or any of your turkish friends of genocide.... but your ancestors.... they did a terrible thing..... you know it!!!!!!!!!

I'm done .. this is pointless.....

It's human nature.... if you do something good, your first thought is it's because of me and how great I am.... you do something bad (genocide), your first thought is it's because of everything else going on in the world besides me.

And now Turks are claiming ARmenians commited Genocide to them... incredible.....

EXFO, just answer one thing.... do you think Armenians were victims, but you don't think that it was genocide....

or do you think that Armenians were killing Turks and in retaliation, turks "defended" themselves and killed like 80% of Armenians?


if you think the first is true, then i welcome discussion with you, if you think the latter is true, i don't want to talk to you because you clearly are lacking the historic knowledge neccessary....

BTW, Your english is fine, and i applaud you annalitic skills, but the denying of the Armenian Genocide has many many layers on behalf of the turks (Pshchogical, political, social, and economic) so unless you are really willing to study this issue .... you're just another turk, with Attaturk tattood on his forhead... and thus... clearly lack objective reasoning...


Good day..

First of all I know that Armenians were the victims of 1915. There was near 2 million Armenians at anatolia before 1915, and %90 of them were exiled. Even only this fact is enough to cover the sizes of this tragedy. One big nation that leave many monumental and cultural tracks is dissapeared from these lands. All those people left their assets and their homeland.
Second, during this exile about half of this population is died during this exile.
Although your perspective is a systematic and planned genocide there were several reasons of these deaths. Yes, one of these reasons was the attacks of Kurdish bandits from surrouning villages, second reason was some of the soldiers that used to organise the exile. They do not protect these people but some of them even join these massacres. (The point here is that most of these soldiers were not the official soldiers of the Ottoman army. The army and even gendarmes were at war at sevaral frontlines and the government hired the criminals from the prisons. This may be a one reason that the government had a "genocide plan" Third reason was the epidemic diseases and hunger that not only Armenians but all people at anatolia suffered with near 2 million deaths. At the end half of the Armenian population was died and the other half is forced to leave to all over the world, mostly to France, USA, Canada.
Now you ask me was it genocide. The answer is I don't know. Why? Because I and you do not have enough information about what really happened at 1915. During 1915 there was millions of official records of the imperial government whcih we can understand the real facts. You mainly address the UK, French, etc. sources of WW1. But if you are a bit familiar to WW1 history you have to understand that most of the news about the "Armenian genocide" by the allied forces were the international propoganda against Ottoman and German governments. Many of them were not reliable such as "blue book, etc." I even dont want to discuss about the famous telegrams which many scholars (not only Turks) call them fake. It is understandable that allied forces promote such "information" during the wartime. But the reality is at least ambiguous.
Believe or not, I really want to know what really happened. I believe myself as an open person and dont care the propoganda from both sides. There is no doubt that something horrible happened, but I only want to know what exactly happened. But both "your side" and "our side" are promoting the same stereotypes. Turkish government conduct a stupid campain that there was a "Turkish genocide" in reality. Yes, Armenian bandits (your freedom warriors) made some massacres at anatolia towards muslims, but the causialties were not more than 10.000. (At this point you do not want to hear this because it doesnt match with a "typical genocide" You want to draw a picture of a perfect genocide, victim and innocent Armenians versus murderer and fascist Turks)
Regarding the international world, I care about the reputable scholars opinions, but not the "ideas" of the ordinary people, parliements, etc. Because one thing we do not agree on the term of genocide is: there was only one genocide in the world which was at ww2 which Germans conducted against xxxs. All of the Europe just watched the genocide. They either supported the genocide or keep silent. This trauma is still valid at deep inside Europe and europeans want to find an accomplice to their crimes. People tell very stupid things such as "Turks built extermination camps, Turkish doctors made experiments against Armenians", even some claim that Turkish government build train lines from east anatolia to the gas rooms. Besides there was not that kind of racist opinion on Turks against Armenias, these theories are impossible that the government was in a war and even could not give food to its soldiers, because of the lack of railway system soldiers can not reach to the front lines, how can they make this kind of "genocide organisation" like Germans?
I can discuss about many more things with you and Sev Zeytun on these facts but I really just want to know the pure reality, and the only way to find the reality is discuss face to face as Armenians and Turks, Armenia and Turkey, not with your and our racist campains.
Note: the term "you" above is not addressed to your personality, but to "your side"
Note 2: Not only 15 but ASALA killed 46 innocent people (including American aand French citizens which their lives may be considered as "more valuable "than Turks according to many) and 299 people wounded.

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Re: Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

But hasn't the ASALA been inactive for a while and haven't most of its biggest leaders been assassinated by former ASALA members, MIT, and the Grey Wolves? Also, how will we be able to dicsuss genocide when the Turks don't even believe that there ever was one to begin with? I understand that the ASALA committed lots of unethical crimes in order to get attention but what about before this(other than the general public)? Why wasn't the Turkish government recording any of this before 1975?

BTW: you English is fine. Don't worry about it too much.

Good job sev zeytun! See exfo, there have been many chances (including now) for Turkey to talk about the Armenian Genocide with the Armenians, but Turkey doesn't really want to, but they're informing the Turks that they want to.

[sev_zeytun]

Re: Is it wrong to date Turkish Cypriot people?

Let me give you a very honest answer:

Why don't Turks accept genocide?

I have to go back to ASALA again to make you understand clear about what is happening from our side. There was not a "deny policy" of Turkey about 1915 until 1970s. There was no information such as Armenian geonicide on the history books, but people of 1960s were generally accepted that some horrible things happened to Armenians at WW1.
Then a terrorist group rise called ASALA and started to kill people to promote the Armenian genocide. People in Turkey shocked with this new issue and feel themselves as offended. Most of the casualties was by the ministery of foreign affairs of Turkey and an unprompted reaction appeared by the MFA such as denying 1915 as a crime. Suddenly government sided scholars and diplomats start to promote the actual policy of Turkey today. (Sorry for my English, I hope you can understand what I mean) Then the activities of Armenian lobbies rised. The allegation of these groups was so biased, full of hatred and racist against Turks that a similiar reaction arised from this side.
Maybe if we had a chance to discuss about these issues calmly side by side, today everything would be different. You created such an aggressive policy against Turkey that people here feel that they are threathened by Armenian diaspora to accept a crime that they did not committed. True or false, but this is the actual feeling of people here now. That is why I also accuse your side because of this "acceptance of genocide" problem. Please just try to have a neutral view even to your website. Besides daily lifes (sport, career, etc.) almost everything here is about how Turks are savages, murderers, how can we destroy Turkey, etc. And I don't know how can we find a solution. We could find a solution about the crimes at 1915 ,besides the term of genocide itself, with Armenia but your diaspora also threathened Armenia for not to establish relationships with Turkey without the "confess of genocide"
Turks want to discuss about your accusations but you say that: ok, we can discuss about the genocide later but first accept the genocide!

This is how the problem seen fom this side, not my personal views.

But hasn't the ASALA been inactive for a while and haven't most of its biggest leaders been assassinated by former ASALA members, MIT, and the Grey Wolves? Also, how will we be able to dicsuss genocide when the Turks don't even believe that there ever was one to begin with? I understand that the ASALA committed lots of unethical crimes in order to get attention but what about before this(other than the general public)? Why wasn't the Turkish government recording any of this before 1975?

BTW: your English is fine. Don't worry about it too much.