Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

[Siggie]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

Depends what you're healing here. TT would work well if your symptoms are lonliness. It's actually a transfer of heat energy from one person to another... try this, put your hand up against the computer monitor and get as close to it as you can without touching it. People pay $20-60 bucks for a session of this. Just like they do for Yoga. Or a massage. Or have their future predicted by some nut with cards. In an increasingly isolating society, there is more and more demand for things like this.

It's up to the individual to decide what is good or bad for them. Hopefully with some guidance from parents, family members, and other people that care for their well being.... they will be able to make the right choices. For those who don't have such a network of people, I guess they are S.O.L.

TT is not about that. C'mon. This was tested and their claims were disproved.
The point is about false claims. If these people were honest about what they do then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But they are conning uninformed people out of their money. Massage is great for muscle issues, tension, relaxation, etc. But when they start to make unfounded woo woo claims, then there's a problem. The same with chiropractic. If they're treating back problems, then fine, but when they start to claim (like most do) that subluxations (something impossible to demonstrate even exists) are causing all kinds of ailments from cancer to ear infections, then they have crossed a line. People then go do these kinds of treatments which aren't going to help the underlying issue. Even if these bunk treatments don't cause harm (and many do, there are lots of cases of nerve damage and paralysis from chiropractic for example), they can delay effective treatment. For a lot of illnesses delaying treatment in and of itself is harmful. Think about people with cancer who try some woowoo crap for a couple months before then turning to scientific medicine. Those couple months could very well be the difference between life and death. I heard about a study a few months back testing some "alternative" treatment for cancer compared to traditional chemo. It was done for something like 90 days. Then all of those who got that alternative treatment, not having been helped, went for chemo afterwards. But it was too late because they lost precious time; that groups chance of survival was startlingly lower than the control scientific treatment group. I want to say it was at least half, but I'm not sure. I can try to find it if you're interested.

These things come at a cost... they all do!

What about the grieving families who psychics exploit? That's not entertainment. They are not only swindling people who are in that state, but by claiming to be communicating with their dead loved ones they're also craping on their memories of that person. It's not okay and these things are not harmless.

Now someone who realizes that psychics are basically doing a magic trick (cold reading) and they choose to go to one for entertainment, is a different story altogether. I don't have a problem with this.

That's all I'm seeking to do. Provide people with information to make better choices. My point about the homeopathy was to make people aware of what homeopathy actually is.
If people aren't educated about these and don't learn to think critically, ask questions, and do a little research themselves, they can actually be harmed.

For instance a bill passed in Canada recently that gave nurses, some clinicians, etc (with training) to prescribe medication. Sneaky people sneaked naturopaths into that list too and these people don't have any medical training or qualification to prescribe medication, but as if their invalid treatments weren't causing enough harm already, now they can prescribe medication too. This puts the public at risk.
How did this happen? Probably multiple reasons, two of which seems most likely to me: 1) legislators not reading what they vote for and sign into law carefully to have even noticed that naturopath was included, and 2) legislators who saw it, but have no idea what naturopaths do and what naturopathy is who didn't even bother to look into it or ask their staff to pull up some simple balanced (their claims + search for support for those claims) information.

You're arguing for a balanced view, but that's just what I'm trying to do. People are usually only aware of the claims made for these treatments and they assume they can't make these claims without some evidence, but they can. Rx medications and treatments are regulated by the government which requires they demonstrate their efficacy (and safety) either against placebo or the best current treatment and medications are quality controlled to ensure that the active dosage and strength, etc is consistent and inactive ingredients are truly inert and safe, but these "alternative" treatments and herbal stuff are not regulated at all (e.g. buying st. johns wart pills from one manufacturer vs another or even the same manufacturer today vs. 6 months from now could have very different concentration and strength making dosage a nightmare even if worked).

These claims are out there and I'm just trying to show people that there isn't evidence to support them, so I feel that I am being balanced. I am balancing their unchecked claims by pointing out that they're unfounded. If it would be helpful for me to first present their claims before I do so, I guess I can try to do that...

[KanadaHye]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

A lot of the research gets done anyway, but you can't get upset that the government is selective about funding. I would be furious if the government had funded research on TT for example, which is the hokey claim that you can manipulate the aura, thus healing people, by holding your hands over their body. A bit of a misnomer to call it theraputic touch even. There is far more deserving research to be funded than this. Nor do we have the abundant funds to throw away on claims that don't even have logic (let alone legitimate research) backing their assumptions and are often not even scientific claims (e.g. testable, or falsifiable).

Depends what you're healing here. TT would work well if your symptoms are lonliness. It's actually a transfer of heat energy from one person to another... try this, put your hand up against the computer monitor and get as close to it as you can without touching it. People pay $20-60 bucks for a session of this. Just like they do for Yoga. Or a massage. Or have their future predicted by some nut with cards. In an increasingly isolating society, there is more and more demand for things like this.

It's up to the individual to decide what is good or bad for them. Hopefully with some guidance from parents, family members, and other people that care for their well being.... they will be able to make the right choices. For those who don't have such a network of people, I guess they are S.O.L.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

Further not all the research pushes medication. For instance there IS research about meditation and self-hypnosis and it's been used in medical settings as well as a powerful pain management technique. You're making unfounded assumptions. You have your bias and you are looking for confirming information only (see confirmation bias.

Don't throw that psycho babble at me.... LOL. I don't have a bias, I'm the one pointing out the bias in these articles. Btw, whatever happened to that whole swine flu thing?

[Siggie]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

Sugar pills is used in place of "placebo." They're not actually saying that the homeopathic treatments contain sugar. They're just equating them to a placebo.

As far as the news, I agree. Much of the time it is one-sided, but I don't rely on media; I go look at the research directly to make sure it's not misrepresented by journalists lacking the scientific knowledge to cover the subject well.

Medication marketed for the treatment of cough not being effective doesn't change anything to do with homeopathy.

Further not all the research pushes medication. For instance there IS research about meditation and self-hypnosis and it's been used in medical settings as well as a powerful pain management technique. You're making unfounded assumptions. You have your bias and you are looking for confirming information only (see confirmation bias).

[KanadaHye]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

The title of the thread is mine. And it is true. UGH! Just read up on what homeopathy is and that will become clear. They state it outright. They think that if you put something in water that the water will remember what was once there after you remove it. It's complete crap.

It does not say they contain sugar. It attempts to illustrate the dilutions used with that example.

In the 2nd article, I made an error and pasted some of the reader comments with it. You can see where, because it follows the send us your comments thing.

Anyway, how this is propoganda is beyond me. It says what the claims are and how these claims were disproved by these groups. That's reporting the events. Where's the distortion? Point it out if it's there.

I read up on homeopathy and although it's quacky, it's not just water. Perhaps this particular store was selling B.S. products but homeopathy is more involved than what this article has one believe.

This guy says they contain sugar...
Michael Marshall, from the MSS, said: "We believe that they shouldn't be selling sugar pills to people who are sick. Homeopathy never works any better than a placebo. The remedies are diluted so much that there is nothing in them."

The distortion (as with most articles I read in the news) is written from 1 point of view and usually contains half-truths backed by political motivation. Reporting has become so shady that I don't believe anything I hear or read anymore (especially from western news outlets)

No, cough syrup would not be considered homeopathic. Your link doesn't work, so I can't check this. But at any rate, I don't how this non-rx cough syrup thing supports homeopathy or your claims that alternative medicine treatments don't get researched.

This is how you operate. You call everything you disagree with "propaganda" and then move on to post some random article without tying to anything.

You completely ignored the part where I responded to your claims about the lack of research.

It's not that I agree or disagree with it, the articles are just plain shi-tty and one sided. I don't understand why you have such a hard time tying my articles to your posts. My post clearly says that "cough syrups generally contain drugs in too low a dose to be effective, or contain combinations of drugs that have never been proven to treat coughs" How is that any different then the claims these protesters have against homeopathy?

From my understanding, homeopathy is a "method" of psychological/biological treatment of certain ailments. In some cases, ailments do come from things like stress which trigger allergies (i.e. asthma, hives) which frankly can't be tested in a lab. I used to get asthma attacks when I was a kid and then I'd start panicking because I couldn't breathe so the attacks would get worse. So I learned to calm down and meditate and take my mind off of it which would actually alleviate the symptoms. Granted it's not a cure but it just goes to show that some things are in your head.

Some people get hives and itch uncontrollably (some say that it's triggered by stress in combination with certain foods) or get eczema and natural ingredients like lemon juice are effective in stopping the itch when you'd think that putting acid on your skin would not be such a great idea.

My point is, there are things out there which aren't regarded as "medicine" but if it stops your symptoms and helps you heal, does the average joe care as long as it works?

When you get stung by a bee, do you run and get ointment or just put some ice on it?

[Siggie]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

Take a look at the title "Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!"

Then you read it and it says "with some sugar"

Then you read more and it claims, some homeopathic medicines do work on certain ailments.

The article is complete propaganda....

The title of the thread is mine. And it is true. UGH! Just read up on what homeopathy is and that will become clear. They state it outright. They think that if you put something in water that the water will remember what was once there after you remove it. It's complete crap.

It does not say they contain sugar. It attempts to illustrate the dilutions used with that example.

In the 2nd article, I made an error and pasted some of the reader comments with it. You can see where, because it follows the send us your comments thing.

Anyway, how this is propoganda is beyond me. It says what the claims are and how these claims were disproved by these groups. That's reporting the events. Where's the distortion? Point it out if it's there.

How does the pharmaceutical industry explain the blunder with cough syrup? These are produced by reliable pharmaceutical companies.

"CHICAGO - Despite the billions of dollars spent every year in this country on over-the-counter cough syrups, most such medicines do little if anything to relieve coughs, the nation’s chest physicians say.

Over-the-counter cough syrups generally contain drugs in too low a dose to be effective, or contain combinations of drugs that have never been proven to treat coughs, said Dr. Richard Irwin, chairman of a cough guidelines committee for the American College of Chest Physicians.

Drugstore shelves are crowded with cough syrups promising speedy, often non-drowsy relief without a prescription."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10777506/



Some people take cough syrup and it works for them... who's speaking the truth here? Is cough syrup considered Homeopathic?

No, cough syrup would not be considered homeopathic. Your link doesn't work, so I can't check this. But at any rate, I don't how this non-rx cough syrup thing supports homeopathy or your claims that alternative medicine treatments don't get researched.

This is how you operate. You call everything you disagree with "propaganda" and then move on to post some random article without tying to anything.

You completely ignored the part where I responded to your claims about the lack of research.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

It would be an absurd waste of money. It's just distilled water. That is the fact by their own admission. The problem is people don't bother to read it. Why would you test the efficacy of water against a placebo?

The medical community has not been as resistant as you make it seem. The claims that seem deserving of investigation, do get looked at. Acupuncture has been studied for instance. Actually, last night, I read quite a few scientific articles examining the effects of the green tea catechin, epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), on lipid oxidation, among other things, in animals as well as humans.

The New England Journal of Medicine even published a piece yeaaaaaaars ago about the BS healing touch. A lot of the research gets done anyway, but you can't get upset that the government is selective about funding. I would be furious if the government had funded research on HT for example, which is the hokey claim that you can manipulate the aura, thus healing people, by holding your hands over their body. A bit of a misnomer to call it healing touch even. There is far more deserving research to be funded than this. Nor do we have the abundant funds to throw away on claims that don't even have logic (let alone legitimate research) backing their assumptions and are often not even scientific claims (e.g. testable, or falsifiable).

Take a look at the title "Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!"

Then you read it and it says "with some sugar"

Then you read more and it claims, some homeopathic medicines do work on certain ailments.

The article is complete propaganda....



How does the pharmaceutical industry explain the blunder with cough syrup? These are produced by reliable pharmaceutical companies.

"CHICAGO - Despite the billions of dollars spent every year in this country on over-the-counter cough syrups, most such medicines do little if anything to relieve coughs, the nation’s chest physicians say.

Over-the-counter cough syrups generally contain drugs in too low a dose to be effective, or contain combinations of drugs that have never been proven to treat coughs, said Dr. Richard Irwin, chairman of a cough guidelines committee for the American College of Chest Physicians.

Drugstore shelves are crowded with cough syrups promising speedy, often non-drowsy relief without a prescription."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10777506/



Some people take cough syrup and it works for them... who's speaking the truth here? Is cough syrup considered Homeopathic?

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

Due to anxiety and studies I took St John's wort when I was younger, I was told this is the magic fixer instead of CBT or Hypnosis, therapy, etc.

I instead experienced nausea, dizziness and vertigo, in addition to feeling more depressed due to it.

I did once take Bacopa Monieri and that helped me a bit, but in the main part of it all CBT worked far better for improving mood

[Siggie]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

"We would support the call for scientific research and evidence gathering on the efficacy of homeopathic medicines. This would help our patients and customers make informed choices about using homeopathic medicines."

Unfortunately, the WHO and company wouldn't bother researching any alternate medicines on whether or not they are effective since for the most part, they are a cheaper alternative and it wouldn't make sense (economically) to do this.

And don't let our Armenian recipe for "Naneh Limone" out to the public

It would be an absurd waste of money. It's just distilled water. That is the fact by their own admission. The problem is people don't bother to read it. Why would you test the efficacy of water against a placebo?

The medical community has not been as resistant as you make it seem. The claims that seem deserving of investigation, do get looked at. Acupuncture has been studied for instance. Actually, last night, I read quite a few scientific articles examining the effects of the green tea catechin, epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), on lipid oxidation, among other things, in animals as well as humans.

The New England Journal of Medicine even published a piece yeaaaaaaars ago about the BS Theraputic Touch (TT).

A huuuuge study examining ginkgo biloba came out recently showing it did nothing (best thing about it turns out to be that thankfully, it wasn't harmful)

A lot of the research gets done anyway, but you can't get upset that the government is selective about funding. I would be furious if the government had funded research on TT for example, which is the hokey claim that you can manipulate the aura, thus healing people, by holding your hands over their body. A bit of a misnomer to call it theraputic touch even. There is far more deserving research to be funded than this. Nor do we have the abundant funds to throw away on claims that don't even have logic (let alone legitimate research) backing their assumptions and are often not even scientific claims (e.g. testable, or falsifiable).

[KanadaHye]

Re: Homeopathic medicines are JUST WATER!

"We would support the call for scientific research and evidence gathering on the efficacy of homeopathic medicines. This would help our patients and customers make informed choices about using homeopathic medicines."

Unfortunately, the WHO and company wouldn't bother researching any alternate medicines on whether or not they are effective since for the most part, they are a cheaper alternative and it wouldn't make sense (economically) to do this.

And don't let our Armenian recipe for "Naneh Limone" out to the public