Global Warming

[KanadaHye]

Re: Global Warming

Science requires following the evidence and the experts in the related fields (you know, your climatology PhD as opposed to your B.A./B.S-degreed HS teacher) almost unanimously agree. Listening to the media, you'd think there's disagreement, but there isn't. There's no controversy within the scientific community, just consensus.

Who are these people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...global_warming

[Artashes]

Re: Global Warming

@Eddo -- your last post you say -- I'm not sure other forces are not" in play" (forgot exact wording).
Here is what the main body of scientists have told me --- the natural cycle is always in play, it's not that other forces aren't in active dynamic mode that is the problem. The problem is that as the legitimate scientific community set out to understand the melting glaciers, ice caps, sea ice etc., the --- EVIDENCE --- keeps pointing to pollution that is exclusively produced by man.
I don't believe that any scientists initially went "head hunting" for "man" as the culprit but the evidence keep mounting and pointing to mankinds activities as a disruption of a natural cycle.
All the scientists I'm comming into contact with are telling me they are simply following the tracts and it is because the tracks keep ending up at the polluters door is the reason they are pointing fingers at the polluters direction.
The number of diverse scientific groups that all come to the same conclusion is not a coincident.
The amount of evidence has literally left no dought as to the difference between the natural cycle forces at play and the dynamics of the polluting forces at play and the disruptive character of the polluting forces.
Much of the activity by the world scientific body is defining and quantifying all cyclic aspects and the evidence is truly overwhelming in pointing to mankinds culpability in this matter.
As this research goes on the scientists are getting better at utilizing other scientific know how to help in the hunt.the worlds best are up here right now trucking heavy but in my opinion the average person as well as the financially successful community ?leaders? are both uninterested and are ready to take damn near anybody's word over any ligitimate and ernest scientist.
Artashes

[Siggie]

Re: Global Warming

Nobody actually looked at the NCSE site clearly... Instead of arguing with one another's conclusions and processing information filtered through the media, why not GO LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE that is available and see what conclusion they support. Everyone wants someone else to do the thinking for them and tell them what to believe. Instead of just adopting the belief that best fits with your other beliefs and your world view, suspend decision for long enough to actually look objectively at the evidence and see where it points.

Science requires following the evidence and the experts in the related fields (you know, your climatology PhD as opposed to your B.A./B.S-degreed HS teacher) almost unanimously agree. Listening to the media, you'd think there's disagreement, but there isn't. There's no controversy within the scientific community, just consensus.

[Haykakan]

Re: Global Warming

Eddo is a good example of the difficulty educators like myself are faced with. How do you make a person accept the facts when they won't accept a reasonable argument and their irrational behavior is reinforced by special interest bs science. BS science is actually on the rise as more of our education sectors become influenced by special interest money and this does not bode well for our future either. When i discuss things like inequality, pollution, global warming, special interest, labor unions.. there is always a small percentage of people in my class who seem uncomfortable about what i am saying yet they never ever provide a reasonable argument as to why they seem to disagree. Just recently i had a student who said he disagreed with the point i was making and so i asked him why he disagreed and he couldn't tell me why-he had no argument other then that he disagrees. I think this sort of thinking of believing something wo evidence or reason is a real danger to society and probably stems from religion. I frequent a michigan icefishing forum on the web and i see people so excited about the coming season yet they all know that there may not be a season at all like it was the case last year. The problem of global warming to me seems like a much bigger issue then climate change i think it touches on a much more fundemental topic of the human ability or inability to think and act rationally and this is what worries me the most.

[Eddo211]

Re: Global Warming

Eddo, it's good to see you back in print. --- however ---
Your comment -- "I have found out" and "insignificant in the greater seem of things" comment is 180 degrees opposite of what the main body of scientists are telling me.
The USA gets 80% of its electricity from coal fired plants. Up until a few years ago America was the #1 polluter of the world. Now China has taken#1 spot and India is not far behind. That is not counting all others.
The number of --- BILLION - S - of metric tons of pollutants produced today is enough to dramatically pollute the entire Pacific and Atlantic oceans as well as all other main body's of water and still have enough pollution to pollute the entire lower atmosphere as well as the land masses.
The amount of chemicals and other pollutants being produced in any single year is staggering, let alone the accumulation of many decades.
The oversite and accountability of most of these pollutants is by the producers of said pollutants, and the dollar is what's important to them , not accountability. Their accountability is pathetic and constantly manipulated to put them in a favorable position and has nothing to do with the truth.
Still glad to see you back.
Artashes

The only difference is that you are convinced that humans are the primary cause of global warming but I am not so convinced that other forces are not in effect. Sure we have fcked this world up in the short time we have been here on earth but earth has also changed its weather dramatically. The sea level has risen and fallen by more than 100 feet in the past.

I don't think it is as simple as people think and I don't think these same people realize how hard it would be to go all green even if all governments of the world held hands and prayed together.

[Artashes]

Re: Global Warming

Eddo, it's good to see you back in print. --- however ---
Your comment -- "I have found out" and "insignificant in the greater seem of things" comment is 180 degrees opposite of what the main body of scientists are telling me.
The USA gets 80% of its electricity from coal fired plants. Up until a few years ago America was the #1 polluter of the world. Now China has taken#1 spot and India is not far behind. That is not counting all others.
The number of --- BILLION - S - of metric tons of pollutants produced today is enough to dramatically pollute the entire Pacific and Atlantic oceans as well as all other main body's of water and still have enough pollution to pollute the entire lower atmosphere as well as the land masses.
The amount of chemicals and other pollutants being produced in any single year is staggering, let alone the accumulation of many decades.
The oversite and accountability of most of these pollutants is by the producers of said pollutants, and the dollar is what's important to them , not accountability. Their accountability is pathetic and constantly manipulated to put them in a favorable position and has nothing to do with the truth.
Still glad to see you back.
Artashes

[Eddo211]

Re: Global Warming

One think I have learned in years of flying in different weather is that you respect mother nature.....humans do have an influence in earths dynamic climate changes (like cutting down the rain forests) however I have found out that we are too small in greater skeem of things to bring about a green house effect or an resulting ice age of future.

Artashes I agree, the reports from the poles are alarming.....not to mention Haykakan's poor ice fishing conditions in US.

Good read

The idea that Global Warming is a natural cycle is well understood from paleo data covering the past 1 million years. Is there a difference between current climate, and the natural cycle? For the past million years the natural climate has oscillated between warm periods and ice ages. This shifting in and out of warm periods and ice ages is correlated strongly with Milankovitch cycles. In order to understand the difference between natural cycle and human-caused global warming, one needs to consider changes in radiative forcing and how this affects systems on earth such as the atmosphere, vegetation, ice and snow, ocean cycles and related effects.

http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/natural-cycle

[Artashes]

Re: Global Warming

Up hear in the northern part of Alaska(approx. 160 miles from the arctic circle) in a small city called" Fairbanks is a university called ( UAF --- University of Alaska, Fairbanks ).
Many scientists are flooding to this university, specifically the " Arctic Research Center ".
A great many scientists are from the circumpolar countries but there are also many other countries represented.
I meet many , many , many, etc. of these scientists. I try to get all the information I can.
I have split these scientists into two groups. One group I call "ligitimate" scientists and the other group I call "politicle hacks". The group I call ligitimate is represents well over 95% (easily) of the scientists I meet.
When I tell them that both the general public and most ( it seems to me ) of the community leaders point to the coming and going of past ice ages and say it (global warming) is a natural occurrence and that they don't believe "mankind is responsible for this climatic change, they(ligitimate scientists) tell me this -�------------- mankind has disrupted a natural cycle --- . In their circle there is no longer any dought that the activities of man is the primary causative factor in the climatic changes we are witnessing today.
2000 was the last real winter I saw up here. Before 2000 starting from about Jan 15th to the end of Feb the high temp was 17 below zero F and it would constantly dip down to 20,30,40,50,60, below zero and colder but never get warmer than about 17 below zero F. In these last 12 years I've seen multiple 50 above F temps. That is only one of a multitude of changes I've seen.
Artashes

[Eddo211]

Re: Global Warming

This is exactly what i am talking about. People are so brainwashed they cannot see the facts no matter how much evidence there is. Yes humans are indeed altering the weather on this planet and we are not the first living things to do so either. Trying its best to switch to clean energy you say? Where? Who? All the energy companies are looking to extract more and more hydrocarbons and why should they not do that when it brings them astoundingly stupid profits? The percentage of energy coming from renewables is a joke. These "perfect storms as you call them are not suposed to happen every few years like they have been. They are called a 100 year storm or once in a life time phenomenon. The storm that devastated the east coast has never ever been recorded previously. Just because hurricanes and ice ages have existed in the past does not mean that we have nothing to do with the weather today. I wonder what our world would be like if people were educated and acted in a rational manner.

Come down Haykakan....you gonna get a heart attack, lol.

1- Nobody said we humans don't have influence on earth's weather pattern (hell I know guys who fly cloud seeding missions). however our influence and carbon deposits are not significant enough to bring in a new ice age, that is what I said.

2- Clean energy is a new and takes time to reach its full potential and we are still very much dependent on crude energy. For example if you have noticed the requirements for new manufactured car engines are much stricter than before and they must meet certain minimum pollution and MPG. In US I just voted for two propositions for increased incentives for clean energy businesses. The smog level (seen from flight) now compared to the 80s are night and day. So yes a lot more work to be done but I believe mankind is at least moving on the right direction.

3- Storms like Sandy happen all the time over underpopulated areas (mostly over the oceans) and never recorded however when they happen over populated areas then it becomes a 100 year storm.

[Haykakan]

Re: Global Warming

This is exactly what i am talking about. People are so brainwashed they cannot see the facts no matter how much evidence there is. Yes humans are indeed altering the weather on this planet and we are not the first living things to do so either. Trying its best to switch to clean energy you say? Where? Who? All the energy companies are looking to extract more and more hydrocarbons and why should they not do that when it brings them astoundingly stupid profits? The percentage of energy coming from renewables is a joke. These "perfect storms as you call them are not suposed to happen every few years like they have been. They are called a 100 year storm or once in a life time phenomenon. The storm that devastated the east coast has never ever been recorded previously. Just because hurricanes and ice ages have existed in the past does not mean that we have nothing to do with the weather today. I wonder what our world would be like if people were educated and acted in a rational manner.

Haykakan are you suggesting that mankind is bringing about an ice age that has happened several times in earths history without humans even in existence?

I think the Western world is trying its best to switch to clean energy.....I don't think there is another choice in the long run and how reserves run out, it is something that will happen we like it or not, but I personally don't think events such as the super storm "Sandy" that we see now is the cause of human influence on earths atmosphere.

What you are witnessing now in eastern US is what is called a perfect storm. You have a very large CAT 1 (lowest lever btw but big) hurricane that mixed with a super cooled low coming down from north and they collided over populated area. In Aviation weather that is the worst recipe for FTSU.