Hezbollah

[Federate]

Hezbollah Begins Formation Of Navy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7f/Yj86lg.jpg
One of the anti-ship missiles that struck the Israeli navy during the 2006 Lebanon war.

Jerusalem - The Middle East Newsline has confirmed the Israeli intelligence community has determined that the Iranian sponsored Hezbollah was forming a navy.

The report said Hezbollah has been working with Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps for naval training and procurement.

And, it said, Hezbollah has developed a naval capability designed to attack Israeli ports and coastal facilities.

"They have operational war ships," said Israel Navy Rear Adm. Ram Rutberg and the commander of the Haifa Naval Base. "We are currently studying their capabilities and maintaining readiness."

Adm. Rutberg, in a Sept. 16 briefing to President Shimon Peres, did not cite platforms acquired by Hezbollah. He said Hezbollah has also been armed with Iranian-origin cruise missiles that could strike Israeli warships.

Sources in Israeli intelligence also confirm that Hezbollah has also been helping Hamas develop a naval capability, so that Hamas could also form a navy in 2009 comprised of fast patrol boats and rubber platforms.

From http://www.thebulletin.us/site/index.cfm?newsid=20126581&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=8

[Federate]

Syria feeds Russian spy tips to Hezbollah - Israel

19 Sep 2008 13:28:21 GMT
JERUSALEM, Sept 19 (Reuters) - Israel believes Russia passes intelligence it gathers about the Jeewish state to Syria and indirectly to Hezbollah guerrillas in neighbouring Lebanon, a senior military officer said on Friday.

The allegations were made by Colonel Ram Dor, chief of information security in the armed forces, to Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth.

They came at a touchy time in relations with Moscow, given Russian arms talks with Syria and the involvement of a Russian state-owned company in building a nuclear power plant for Iran at Bushehr on its Gulf coast.

Russia has, in turn, complained about Israeli arms and training for Georgia, with which it fought a five-day war last month over the Georgian province of South Ossetia. "My assessment is that their facilities cover most of the state of Israel's territory," Dor told Yedioth Ahronoth, describing Russian spy ships that dock in Syria and Russian personnel who he said serve in electronic eavesdropping stations on the Syrian side of the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights.

"The Syrians share the intelligence that they gather with Hezbollah, and the other way around. This we know, because we know how to build a mirror-image that shows us what enemy intelligence knows about us," Dor said.

"So if the Russians help the Syrians get information, and the Syrians constantly pass it on to Hezbollah, it is a reasonable supposition that the information gathered by the Russians also reaches Hezbollah's hands."

Russian officials in Moscow were unavailable for comment.

Moscow has denied providing Syria or Iran with support that could boost their offensive capabilities and in recent years has offered to host Israeli-Arab peace summits.

Israel generally avoids public censure of Russia. Analysts say it is concerned such criticism could hurt efforts to lobby Moscow into scrapping arms sales to Syria or weaken its backing for U.N. sanctions designed to deny Iran the means to make an atomic bomb. Israel suffered surprise setbacks in a 2006 war with Hezbollah which some Israeli military commanders blamed on the guerrilla group's access to Russian intelligence and weapons.

Hezbollah does not volunteer information on its military assets, and Iran and Syria deny providing the group with arms.

According to Yedioth, Israel believes the Russian are spying on it "so significant changes in the region do not catch them by surprise. They are preoccupied with Middle East stability".

From http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LJ227596.htm

[Federate]

Norman Finkelstein - Hezbollah, the Honour of Lebanon - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ

Norman Finkelstein, a Jeewish American political scientist and author, specializing in Jeewish-related issues and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular talks about the Lebanese militia Hezbollah and openly supports and praises their resistance: "They (Hezbollah) show courage, they show discipline, I respect that"...

[Armenian]

Norman Finkelstein - Hezbollah, the Honour of Lebanon - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ

Very powerful interview. Certain elements of his message is something we Armenians need absorb as well. I was first introduced to this righteous xxx about five years ago when he published the book called The Holocaust Industry: http://www.rense.com/general24/kud.htm

The Holocaust Industry pt 1 of 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeVR8xHODxU

[tranquill]

Here is an interesting point:
http://samsonblinded.org/news/government-surrenders-the-separation-barrier-to-palestinians-3127
Israeli analyst argues that the 98% peace deal is fake because Israel
inherently cannot pull it off.

[crusader1492]

Norman Finkelstein - Hezbollah, the Honour of Lebanon - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ

Norman Finkelstein, a Jeewish American political scientist and author, specializing in Jeewish-related issues and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular talks about the Lebanese militia Hezbollah and openly supports and praises their resistance: "They (Hezbollah) show courage, they show discipline, I respect that"...

What a breath of fresh air...an unbiased xxx who speaks with a moral clarity that cannot be denied.

[Federate]

Finally, they admit.
---------------------------
Israelis say spy chief killed Hezbollah commander Mughniyah
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/images/2008/10/05/dagan.jpg
Dagan A panel of experts assembled by Israel's most powerful television channel honored Israeli Mossad chief Meir Dagan as the nation's "man of the year" for, among other things, killing Hezbollah commander Imad Mughniyah in the Syrian capital in February, according to a recent report in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

Up until now, Israel has publicly refused to acknowledge any role in the car bomb blast that killed Mughniyah, who was suspected of masterminding attacks on Israeli targets around the world and was believed to have been the brains behind the Hezbollah militia's surprise performance in the 2006 war with Israel.

Many in Syria and Lebanon suspect the xxxish state's security services had a hand in the assassination.

But according to Haaretz journalist and frequent government critic Gideon Levy, the Israeli Channel 2 panel last week cited "the killing of senior Hezbollah leader Imad Mughniyeh in Damascus, a few more mysterious and unnecessary killings and, of course, the bombing of the alleged nuclear site in Syria" as accomplishments that made Dagan deserving of 'at least 10 Israel Prizes.'"

The television station aired rare footage of outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert meeting Dagan in his office telling him, "You did well," according to Levy.

Levy quoted political analyst Emmanuel Rosen praising the selection:

[He is] a man who has done only good. [He is] a man who would cut the throats of terrorists with his own hands, using a box-cutter — a man of action with a knife in his teeth.

— Borzou Daragahi in Beirut

From http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/10/lebanon-israeli.html

Imad Mughniyeh
http://www.armytimes.com/xml/news/2008/02/ap_lebanondead_080213/08013_mughniyeh_800.JPG

[yerazhishda]

What a breath of fresh air...an unbiased xxx who speaks with a moral clarity that cannot be denied.

Yet he is a xxx who is a traitor to his own people. It's probably xxxs like this that ratted out their own kind in Nazi Germany. I'm very suspicious of any "anti-Zionist" xxx, you know what I mean?

[Federate]

Hezbollah: Israeli MIA escaped, believed dead
http://ap.google.com/media/ALeqM5gmZo4AySZiIkdUwhSBoVtt5I9bHQ?size=s
By SHAWNA OHM – 9 hours ago

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's most famous missing soldier escaped from captivity in Lebanon and probably died 20 years ago while trying to make his way home through difficult terrain, Hezbollah told Israel's government, according to a newspaper report Wednesday.

The Lebanese guerrilla group submitted the report on airman Ron Arad's fate to the Israeli government as part of a July prisoner swap in which Israel freed five Lebanese militants for the bodies of two Israeli soldiers.

Israeli security officials confirmed that the Maariv daily accurately summarized Hezbollah's account. However, they dismissed Hezbollah's claim, noting that the group provides no evidence that Arad died.

Arad's plane was shot down Oct. 16, 1986 by Lebanese militiamen. The plane's pilot was rescued by helicopter and the Israeli military believed Arad, the plane's navigator, was captured alive. Arad was initially held by Amal, a Shiite Muslim group and Hezbollah rival.

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah suggested in a 2006 speech that Arad may have died in the late 1980s, after managing to escape.

In its report to Israel, Hezbollah was more specific.

"The Israeli pilot escaped from his holding cell on the night between the fourth and fifth of May 1988, and headed south toward the (Israeli) occupied security zone," Maariv quoted the Hezbollah report as saying.

The guerrilla group said Arad may have died from a number of causes in the remote, mountainous area, including fever, thirst or falling off a cliff. Hezbollah said it believes Arad is dead, but acknowledged that his remains were never found.

The Israeli officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the classified nature of the information, said they believe Hezbollah submitted the report in a halfhearted attempt to meet Israel's demand for information about Arad as part of the prisoner swap.

From http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jDxDi2moa_aUA5IXwThDsUnRQx6gD93ME4EG0

[Federate]

Hezbollah chief vows Mughniyeh's retaliation is coming
BEIRUT, Oct. 8 (Xinhua) -- Chief of the Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah group Hasan Nasrallah has promised in a recent "semi-internal" meeting of his party that retaliation for the assassination of top Hezbollah commander Imad Mughniyeh is coming,local Al-Akhabar Daily reported Wednesday.

"No backing off from the decision to avenge the assassination of Hajj Mughniyeh," Nasrallah was quoted by the daily as saying during the meeting.

"And no backing off from carrying out the big surprise against the enemy," Nasrallah added.

Mughniyeh was killed in a car bomb in Damascus in February. Hezbollah accused Israel of carrying out the assassination, despite Israel's denial of any involvement.

Nasrallah said he promised Israel, "the enemy," with "a big surprise" if it attacks Lebanon. Israeli officials have vowed to destroy the Lebanese infrastructure should Hezbollah carry out any revenge operation against Israel.

"No one will know the time, the place or the way" of avenging Mughniyeh's assassination, Nasrallah said.

From http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-10/08/content_10166232.htm

[ara87]

Israel gets what they deserve, they're the ones who freaking empowered hezbollah in '06, even the Christians in Lebanon began to side with them

[skhara]

I really like that interview with NF.

Especially how he pointed out about pathetic state of Arabs.

[Federate]

Al Jazeera segment on how Hizballah beat Israel's Merkava tank. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7s5lnjXR5s

[Federate]

Actual footage of Hizballah operation that led to the 2006 Lebanon war - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W40GdKZEd9U&feature=related

[Federate]

Saudis resurrect a rival for Hezbollah
By Sami Moubayed

DAMASCUS - Word is coming out of south Lebanon that Saudi money under United States urging is being pumped into the Shi'ite community - in vain - to create a bloc among Lebanese Shi'ites against Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.

The Saudis are strongly opposed to Hezbollah, claiming that it is an extension of Iranian influence in the Arab world. More recently, the Saudis have began coordinating with former vice president Abdul-Halim Khaddam to break Hezbollah's influence in Lebanon.

In testimony of just how influential Nasrallah is as secretary general of Hezbollah, the Saudis have stunningly failed - despite tremendous efforts and allegations of huge sums of money being spent - at creating a serious anti-Nasrallah team in places controlled by Hezbollah and its ally, the Amal Party of speaker Nabih Berri.

This applies to places like al-Dahiya, the Hezbollah stronghold in the suburbs of Beirut, and cities like Baalbak. That is why they have shifted their attention recently to other districts with "Shi'ite pockets" where Hezbollah does not completely reign, like Nab'a, and certain villages in south Lebanon.

Coinciding with this story and probably related to it, are unconfirmed reports saying that Michael Hayden, the head of the US Central Intelligence Agency, went to Beirut for a secret mission, probably aimed at working towards crushing - or at least disarming - Hezbollah.

That coincided with another high-profile visit by US Under Secretary of Defense Eric Edelman to Beirut, where he met Prime Minister Fouad al-Siniora, signing an agreement to grant automatic grenade launchers to the Lebanese army. The visit - Edelman's fourth in one year - raised eyebrows among members of the Hezbollah-led opposition, who were welcoming Michel Aoun, Hezbollah's main Christian ally, who was returning from a five-day visit to Iran.

The Americans are trying - again - to implement United Nations Security Council resolution 1559, which calls for the disarmament of Hezbollah, through strengthening "US-Lebanon bilateral defense" relations. Since 2006, the US has committed more than $410 million in military assistance to Lebanon - hoping that these weapons can be used to counterbalance the military might of Hezbollah.

The Saudis and Subhi Tufayli
The Saudis, however, are reportedly funding a rival wing of Hezbollah itself, modeled around Sheikh Subhi Tufayli, one of the party's original founders who has been sitting in the dark since the 1990s.

Tufayli started out as a firm supporter of Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, having studied Islam in Najaf (Iraq) during Khomeini's long exile in the holy Iraqi city, before the Islamic revolution of 1979. He returned to Lebanon and helped co-found Hezbollah - with Iranian support - during the Israeli invasion of 1982.

The party broke from Amal, disgruntled at the party's increased secularization and its political rather than military approach, vis-a-vis the Israeli occupation. Men like Tufayli, Abbas Musawi and Nasrallah wanted action, and immediately clashed with Amal and its veteran leader (and now ally) Nabih Berri.

Under Tufayli's leadership, Hezbollah managed to drive Amal from Beirut during the height of the Lebanese civil war in the late 1980s. Under his command rose the young Nasrallah in 1989, leading a commando force against Amal in Iqlim al-Tuffah, and becoming a member of the central command of Hezbollah at the young age of 29.

Tufayli served as the party's spokesman from 1985 to 1989, then became secretary general from 1989 to 1991. Tufayli opposed taking part in national reconciliation talks in Taif, Saudi Arabia, and as a result was expelled (or asked to resign) from Hezbollah under the urging of then Iranian president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. Nasrallah served as Hezbollah's "ambassador" to Iran in 1989-1992. During this time, Tufayli was replaced by Abbas Musawi as secretary general, who in turn was assassinated in 1992, many suspect by Israel.

Nasrallah replaced him at the job, although the party's hierarchy showed that it should have gone to Sheikh Naim Qasim. Veterans of Hezbollah - headed by Tufayli - were surprised at the change of command, considering Nasrallah as too junior politically and religiously, and too young at 31, to become the Party of God's number-one man.

A hardliner, Tufayli once said that his supporters did not dream of eradicating Israel in the near future, but plans to lead a battle that will last "for centuries". More recently, he has distanced himself from Iran for its firm support for Nasrallah, a man whom he respects but envies tremendously. He can't challenge him, beat him, or replace him as head of Hezbollah or the Lebanese Shi'ite community.

He once said that some of the current members of Hezbollah "are taking the country towards destruction under the slogan of fighting the American policies in the region. If someone wants to change the government, does it not mean leading the whole country to chaos and civil strife?"

Tufayli vetoed the "politicization" of Hezbollah, claiming that it should neither run for parliament, nor hold government office, and remain committed to what it knows best: guerrilla war with Israel.

In July 1997, he organized a "hunger strike" of his followers in Baalbak, aimed at embarrassing the pro-Hezbollah government of then-prime minister Rafik al-Hariri. He has since called his small power base the Revolution of the Hungry, similar to the "Movement of the Dispossessed" that was created by Hezbollah's godfather, Sheikh Musa Sadr.

Although the Lebanese government tried to arrest him, it has since let him live freely, keeping close tabs on his activities and making sure that he is absent from public life. In 2000, when Nasrallah liberated south Lebanon against Israel, Tufayli was believed to be politically finished, since Hezbollah was at the apex of its career and no Shi'ite with a right mind could challenge the charisma or popularity of Nasrallah.

But on several occasions he came out and spoke against Nasrallah, objecting to the latter's alliance with Iran and claiming that he broke with Hezbollah because of the overt Iranian agenda of its secretary general. Earlier, in his final act of defiance, Tufayli clashed with the Lebanese state when his followers tried to take over a party-run religious school in Baalbak.

The Lebanese army was asked to intervene, when Iranian cover was lifted off Tufayli, back when the armed forces were under command of pro-Syrian General Emille Lahhoud, who became president of the republic from 1998-2007. The army announced that it had mobilized against Tufayli "on charges of forming armed groups, endangering national security and killing soldiers and civilians".

The Lebanese government of Siniora has tried in vain to get rid of Hezbollah, but was unable to do so due to the party's power base and the repeated victories it scored against Israel since 2000. The UN could not disarm Hezbollah, nor could the United States, or Israel in its failed 2006 war on Lebanon.

According to veteran US journalist Seymour Hersh, the Americans and Saudis even worked towards creating an armed Sunni terrorist group to combat Hezbollah - in reference to Fatah al-Islam, inspired by al-Qaeda - which also ended in vain.

Now, all parties are trying to break Nasrallah's kingdom from within, through splinter Shi'ite groups loyal to people like Tufayli and through the money of dissident Syrians. Any person who has seen how popular Nasrallah was in Lebanon in 2000 or 2006 realizes how foolish it would be to try and challenge him by resurrecting figures like Subhi Tufayli.

Nasrallah is one of the most charismatic and popular figures in the Muslim world. Tufayli is a nobody. Nasrallah achieved victory for his party in 2000 and 2006, whereas Tufayli left behind a troubled - almost forgotten - legacy. Nasrallah distributes money to the poor in order to empower the Shi'ites of Lebanon.

Saudi Arabian money is going to Tufayli's pockets, not to ordinary Shi'ites. Saudi Arabia will never be respected or seen as an honest broker in the Shi'ite community because of its ties to militant Sunni groups like al-Qaeda. That is why nobody aided or financed by the Saudis will ever be accepted by Lebanese Shi'ites.

From http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JJ21Ak01.html

[Federate]

Iraqi website: Nasrallah survived poisoning attempt
http://z.about.com/d/middleeast/1/0/9/0/-/-/0324-nasrallah.jpg
'High-ranking diplomatic sources in Beirut' quoted as saying Israel apparently behind assassination attempt; report says Iranian physicians flown in to Beirut to save Hizbullah chief

Roee Nahmias
Published: 10.22.08, 15:35 / Israel News

An Iraqi news website on Wednesday quoted "high-ranking diplomatic sources in Beirut" as saying that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah survived a poisoning attempt.

According to the state-affiliated website, Nasrallah survived an assassination by a highly toxic chemical just a few days ago. The report has yet to be confirmed by any official source, and Hizbullah media made no mention of the alleged attempt on the Hizbullah chief's life.

According to the Iraqi website's report, Nasrallah suffered grave effects from the poison, and a team of 15 Iranian physicians was flown to Beirut to attend him, and eventually managed to stabilize his condition.

The report quoted "western diplomatic sources" as saying that Israel was apparently behind the assassination attempt, adding that the Shiite group has launched an investigation into the incident.

The origin of the chemical may indicate who was behind the assassination attempt, according to the report.

A senior Hizbullah figure called the report a "fabrication", saying "I haven’t seen Nasrallah in a week, but I know he is in good health."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3611640,00.html

----------------------------------------------

'Nasrallah survives poisoning attempt'

Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah was poisoned last week and his life was saved by 15 Iranian doctors who flew to Lebanon to treat him, the Iraqi Web site Almalaf reported Wednesday, quoting Lebanese diplomatic sources.

The sources were quoted as saying that an extremely poisonous chemical substance was used against the Hizbullah leader.

Nasrallah was reportedly in critical condition for several days, until the Iranian doctors arrived and saved his life. The Hizbullah chief is still feeing unwell, according to the report.

The Jerusalem Post could not confirm the Almalaf report.

The Web site, which is close to the Iraqi regime, claimed that the sources believed it was very likely that the poisoning was an Israeli assassination attempt.

The Iranian doctors arrived in Beirut on Sunday at 11 p.m., reportedly on a special military flight.

Officials even considered flying Nasrallah to Iran for further treatment, the Web site claimed.

Sources close to Nasrallah denied the report and said that although they hadn't seen the Hizbullah leader in more than a week, he was perfectly fine.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1222017595194&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

-----------------------------------

Hizbullah Secy Gen survives assassination bid: Report
Jerusalem, Oct 22: Hizbullah Secretary General, Hassan Nasrallah, has survived an assassination attempt, allegedly plotted by Israel, according to a media report on Wednesday.

An Iraqi news website, 'Almalaf', has quoted "high-ranking diplomatic sources in Beirut" as saying that Nasrallah survived a poisoning attempt involving a highly toxic chemical last week and was saved by a team of 15 Iranian physicians who were flown to Lebanon to attend to him.

The Iranian medical team reportedly arrived on a special military flight.

The Iraqi website was quoted by Israeli media as saying that officials considered flying the Hizbullah chief to Iran for further treatment.

A senior Hizbullah figure, however, claimed that the report was fabricated.

"This is a lie and a fabrication. It' true that I haven't seen [Nasrallah] this past week, but he's okay," Al-Hajj Hassan, a Lebanese parliament member affiliated to the groupsaid.

Israel has in the past attempted to eliminate hostile leaders by poisoning them.

In September 1997, a Mossad team tried to assassinate Hamas' political chief, Khaled Meshal, by drizzling poison in his ear. The attempt failed and two of the Mossad agents involved in the plot were captured while others found refuge in the Israeli Embassy in Amman.

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=478150&sid=WOR

[Federate]

Mossad chief Meir Dagan assassinated by Hizballah?
-----------------------------------
Arab Websites report Mossad chief assassinated in Amman. Israeli sources deny
http://www.nogw.com/images/dagan_meir-468.jpg
DEBKAfile Special Report

October 21, 2008, 12:34 PM (GMT+02:00)
Meir Dagan, Mossad director

DEBKAfile reports that Arab Internet sites, most of them Jordanian, claim that 10 days ago on Oct. 12, Meir Dagan, the head of Israel’s external intelligence service, the Mossad, was targeted by assassins while visiting Amman. Some describe a large bomb explosion alongside his convoy and add that Israeli and Jordanian guards with the convoy were injured. Others say Dagan himself was hurt or even killed in the attack. They claim Israel and Jordan are keeping the incident a secret.

DEBKAfile’s sources have no knowledge of any visit by Meir Dagan to the Jordanian capital.

Jordanian officials are trying hard to dismiss the incident. Without going on record, they maintain Dagan paid no recent visits to their capital and was not attacked. This has not been enough to dispel the rumors, according to one of which a hit-man or team linked to Hizballah or Iran managed to avenge the death of Hizballah military chief Imad Mughniyeh in Damascus last February.

The Arab world sees Dagan as master of the hidden Israeli hand which reached into Syria to target Mugniyeh and destroyed Syria’s plutonium reactor in September 2007.

According to another theory, Damascus is working the rumor mill to offset the unfavorable impression generated in the Arab world by its military concentrations on Lebanon’s borders.

Meir Dagan would need to make an appearance in person to dispel the rumors.

The movements of intelligence chiefs who travel in constant fear of their lives, especially in the Middle East, are strictly shrouded in secrecy.

Whether the US CIA director Gen. Michael Hayden, for instance, actually went through with a planned visit to Beirut on Oct. 16, has never been disclosed.

DEBKAfile’s intelligence sources confirm that he was indeed there. The visit was important to make sure that the new head of Lebanese military intelligence, Gen. Edmund Fadal, who traveled to Damascus directly after his appointment to meet his Syrian counterpart, Gen. Asif Shawqat, was not caught in the Syrian net. The service he heads is the staunchest pro-Western military outfit in Lebanon.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5661

[Armenian]

I wasn't aware of the top two developments Federate. I wonder how valid this news is.

[Federate]

Hezbollah missile stock 'tripled'
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45236000/jpg/_45236130_hezbollahtyreafp226b.jpg
Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak has said the Lebanese Hezbollah movement now has three times as many missiles as before the 2006 Lebanon war.

Mr Barak told MPs some of its 42,000 missiles could reach the southern towns of Ashkelon, Beersheba and Dimona, more than 200km (125 miles) from the border.

Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets into northern Israel during the 2006 conflict, killing some 40 civilians.

More than 1,125 Lebanese, most of them civilians, died in Israeli attacks.

The 34-day war started with a border incursion by Hezbollah on 12 July 2006. Eight Israeli soldiers were killed and two others kidnapped, prompting a massive Israeli response.

Gaza truce praised

In a speech on Monday to Israel's parliament, the Knesset, Mr Barak warned that Hezbollah's military wing, the Islamic Resistance, had greatly increased its arsenal since 2006.

It now possessed missiles which could reach far into southern Israel, he said.

"Hezbollah has three times the ability it had before the second Lebanon war and now has 42,000 missiles in its possession, as opposed to the 14,000 it had before the war," he said.

"It has missiles that can reach the towns of Ashkelon, Beersheba and Dimona."

Mr Barak also said that the movement's inclusion in Lebanon's national unity government earlier this year meant that Israel might take wider action against the country's civilian infrastructure in future.

"The integration of Hezbollah into the Lebanese state exposes Lebanon and its infrastructure to in-depth attacks in the event of a new conflict," he said.

Earlier, when addressing the Knesset's foreign affairs and defence committee, Mr Barak also renewed his support for an extension of the ceasefire with Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip, which began on 19 June.

"I'm not sorry for any day or month of calm," he said.

"In each of the two months leading up to the truce there were 500 incidences of Qassam rocket fire and mortar shell fire, a figure which dropped to roughly 10 a month when the truce kicked in," he added.

Mr Barak also rejected calls for a major ground offensive in Gaza to overthrow the Islamist movement, Hamas, which seized control of the territory last year.

"To all the warmongers I say: You have nothing to teach me about war or peace or my duties," the former chief of staff of the Israel Defence Forces said.

"I am defence minister, not war minister, and my job is to maintain as far as possible the maximum of security for Israeli citizens. In any case, if a pre-emptive operation proves necessary, the army will act."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7746615.stm

[Federate]

Hezbollah plot to attack Israeli embassy in Azerbaijan foiled

The London Times revealed Friday that a Hezbollah plot to attack the Israeli embassy in Azerbaijan was foiled last year, after Azeri Intelligence discovered the plot.

Azeri intelligence authorities reportedly first caught wind of the plot weeks after Imad Mughniyah, Deputy Secretary General of the Lebanon-based guerilla group was killed by a car bomb in Damascus last February.

As the date of Mughniyah's assassination draws near there is growing concern that Hezbollah is planning further attacks on Israeli or xxxish targets abroad to retaliate his killing, the Times indicates. Hezbollah's 1800 Unit is said to be working on possible attacks inside Israel.

Hezbollah leader, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, said: "The Zionists will discover that the war they had in July was a walk in the park if we compare it to what we've prepared for every new aggression," says the Times.

The report also stated that the Egyptian intelligence broke up a Sinai-based Hezbollah cell headed by Sami Shehab, a Lebanese citizen. The cell, which also included Palestinians members had allegedly planned to attack Israeli targets.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056226.html

[hipeter924]

In a speech on Monday to Israel's parliament, the Knesset, Mr Barak warned that Hezbollah's military wing, the Islamic Resistance, had greatly increased its arsenal since 2006.

It now possessed missiles which could reach far into southern Israel, he said.

"Hezbollah has three times the ability it had before the second Lebanon war and now has 42,000 missiles in its possession, as opposed to the 14,000 it had before the war," he said.

"It has missiles that can reach the towns of Ashkelon, Beersheba and Dimona."

Mr Barak also said that the movement's inclusion in Lebanon's national unity government earlier this year meant that Israel might take wider action against the country's civilian infrastructure in future.

Israeli racism shows through yet again, and they say they want peace and all the time Israel threatens war on innocent people who have nothing to do with it. Where I have I seen this before? Oh wait. The last war that Israel lost. :rolleyes:

[Anonymouse]

I will be the first to state Israeli atrocities and brutality and the overall nature of the State of Israel. I'll also go so far as to state that Palestinians have a right to self-determination and self-defense against naked Israeli aggression.

However, I draw a line with you folks in terms of honoring Hezbollah or any of these Muslim brotherhood type deals. Let's not forget that just as Judaism and the State of Israel is intolerant toward the other, so is Islam. And Islam is not a religion of peace but very much so a religion of hierarchy, subjugation and order. And lest we forget what Islam is about we need only look at our own Armenian history to see that we were a subject peoples under Islam and were discriminated upon and treated as a second class people.

Most if not all of these Islamic based groups or Islamic fundamentalist organizations seek an Islamic society or a caliphate or some type of deal where they will impose Islam on everyone else. Their mentality and backwardness of thought is against the idea of placing the highest emphasis on culture of a people but on the culture of the religion, because Islam is an all encompassing ideology of one-worldism that reduces people under one banner of sameness.

Let's fall into the trap where we can't see the forest for the trees.

[Tigranakert]

Armenians in Iran enjoy more freedom than their muslim citizens. Most of them respect christians, and we are treated fairly well. But one can not close an eye on all the negative things the revolution brought, women are supressed, beaten and killed almost on daily basis.

My mother told me once that she was carrying my brother in her arms, the special islam-police with AK-47's almost took her to the police station to beat her up, because you could see a little bit of hair (this is what happened to a lot of women, including Armenians). They also killed an Armenian priest. Life for christians in Iran is not so bad as people think in Europe, but it isn't good aswell. We had our own neighbourhoods and schools and did not ''interact'' with them, only for business purposses.

Now that all the xxxish organizations brought the Armenians to America, everything has changed and gone the wrong way. Our power and influence has dramatically declined, as was the initial plan of the j-e-w-s.

They foresaw that in the future the Armenians from Iran would have a connection with an independent Armenia and would repatriate and invest billions of dollers in Armenia. The population could have grown between 500.000 and 1.000.000 Armenians, but now there are at best 100.000 Armenians living in Iran.

Armenians flourished best in islamic countries, we had powerfull and tight communities (Syria, Lebanon, Iran) where we maintained our Armenian heritage and culture because we were different from the muslims. We were christians, they where muslims, and this actually saved us.

The culture of Europa, America and Russia ''xxxxed'' up our identity, western-pop-sex-music-hiphop-culture and their ''same'' religion (Armenians often say, you can marry everything except a muslim) was the cause of assimilation, and the Armenian culture and heritage is forgotten on a massive speed. God bless the islamic countries, for where we flourished, lived and maintained our culture.

Times have changed...

[UrMistake]

Tigranakert do not talk that u dont know of,armenians in europe and in MODERN countrys is better than eny muslim country u just said some facts like the priest and ur mom,then u say God bless them?for what for being stupid?armenians in muslim countrys is the modern kind of citizens that they dont have,dont blame all the wrong to the xxxs all the countrys had there own benefits from not leting armenians to flourish especialy in iran and other muslim countris.

[hipeter924]

I will be the first to state Israeli atrocities and brutality and the overall nature of the State of Israel. I'll also go so far as to state that Palestinians have a right to self-determination and self-defense against naked Israeli aggression.

However, I draw a line with you folks in terms of honoring Hezbollah or any of these Muslim brotherhood type deals. Let's not forget that just as Judaism and the State of Israel is intolerant toward the other, so is Islam. And Islam is not a religion of peace but very much so a religion of hierarchy, subjugation and order. And lest we forget what Islam is about we need only look at our own Armenian history to see that we were a subject peoples under Islam and were discriminated upon and treated as a second class people.

Most if not all of these Islamic based groups or Islamic fundamentalist organizations seek an Islamic society or a caliphate or some type of deal where they will impose Islam on everyone else. Their mentality and backwardness of thought is against the idea of placing the highest emphasis on culture of a people but on the culture of the religion, because Islam is an all encompassing ideology of one-worldism that reduces people under one banner of sameness.

Let's fall into the trap where we can't see the forest for the trees.

Any religion cannot be held as evil simply because humans make it that way, otherwise Christianity would be equally evil for persecution of Cathars, xxxs, women and other groups in society. So you are wrong there. If you ever read say the Koran it tells people to tolerate and respect other religions and not force Islam upon people.

The Ottoman Turks did not follow the Koran word for word, in fact they just used the Koran as something to justify their acts even though the Koran text did not justify it.

The thing always with religion is that it relies on interpretation, since the bible and other christian texts were used to discriminate against women and sadly today the Koran is used in a similar way. But that does not mean the religion is evil, its just the interpretation that is evil.

So because of this I reject your view of Islam, you can't put Islam, Christianity or any religion on scales and say this is evil because it never works that way. It is humans, not the religion at fault, and even then you can't call the followers of one religion all evil, because it never works that way.

Sorry mate, but I can't really see why you view it that way.

[Armenian]

As much as I disagreed with Anon's statements regarding this topic, I disagree with yours as well. On this matter, you two represent the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Armenians in Iran enjoy more freedom than their muslim citizens. Most of them respect christians, and we are treated fairly well. But one can not close an eye on all the negative things the revolution brought, women are supressed, beaten and killed almost on daily basis. My mother told me once that she was carrying my brother in her arms, the special islam-police with AK-47's almost took her to the police station to beat her up, because you could see a little bit of hair (this is what happened to a lot of women, including Armenians). They also killed an Armenian priest. Life for christians in Iran is not so bad as people think in Europe, but it isn't good aswell. We had our own neighbourhoods and schools and did not ''interact'' with them, only for business purposses.

The Middle East's approach towards societal issues are a direct result of the region's popular culture, its man made traditions. The problem is not religion - the problem is male testosterone. Non-Islamic Indians, Chinese, Native American's, Africans, etc., also treat their women horrendously. Moreover, what the West has done to the honor and integrity of women is equally horrendous. One has turned women into sex slaves the other has turned them into work slaves. What's better? Moreover, modern Islamic fundamentalism, especially the one we see in Palestine, Iran and Pakistan, is directly rooted in 20th century geopolitics.

Now that all the xxxish organizations brought the Armenians to America, everything has changed and gone the wrong way. Our power and influence has dramatically declined, as was the initial plan of the j-e-w-s. They foresaw that in the future the Armenians from Iran would have a connection with an independent Armenia and would repatriate and invest billions of dollers in Armenia. The population could have grown between 500.000 and 1.000.000 Armenians, but now there are at best 100.000 Armenians living in Iran.

This is a gross exaggeration, if not a total fallacy. xxxs did not bring Armenians to America in order to weaken Armenian power in Iran and forestall any future movement to Armenia. That is pure and adulterated paranoia. When we speak in such outlandish terms about our foes, be they Turks or xxxs, it undermines our argument and intellectual integrity.

[B]Armenians flourished best in islamic countries, we had powerfull and tight communities (Syria, Lebanon, Iran) where we maintained our Armenian heritage and culture because we were different from the muslims. We were christians, they where muslims, and this actually saved us.

No. Armenians did not "flourish" in Islamic societies. First of all, Syria and Lebanon are not very Islamic per se due to their contacts with Europe, France and Britain in particular. Nonetheless, these two nations have to be looked upon by Armenians as temporary safe havens. We don't even have a hundred year history in the aforementioned nations and already the Armenian population there is more Arab than Armenian. After several generations there will no longer be an Armenian community of Lebanon and Syria.

Historically, second class Armenians were allowed to quietly live and trade in the Persian and Ottoman empires. Although Armenians were not directly oppressed by Ottoman and Persian authorities and many were allowed to succeed in various careers, the vast majority of Armenians nonetheless could not dream of being anything but second class citizens, or gavurs. Life for the Armenian population under Islamic rule was so stagnant and insular that they began to eventually resemble their Muslim neighbors in culture and in demeanor. By the turn of the 20th century the only thing that could really distinguish an Armenian from his/her Kurdish, Turkish or Persian neighbors was religion.

The culture of Europa, America and Russia ''xxxxed'' up our identity, western-pop-sex-music-hiphop-culture and their ''same'' religion (Armenians often say, you can marry everything except a muslim) was the cause of assimilation, and the Armenian culture and heritage is forgotten on a massive speed. God bless the islamic countries, for where we flourished, lived and maintained our culture.

The culture of the western world is the very heartbeat of the world. Without Europe the world will once again decline into the dark ages. I rather have my personal freedom (as well as casual sex and western pop music) than live a desolate life in a little mud hut making donkey saddles all day. Western culture, Russian in particular, brought us Armenians out of the primitive, Islamic, Anatolian/Middle Eastern lifestyle and into the modern world. Without Russia/western culture Armenia today would not have its institutions of higher learning, its great musical composers, its great war heroes, its great poets, its great artists - its republic...

Times have changed...

Indeed. And Islamic societies are still living in the year 1292 - the year the last western Crusaders were expelled from the Holy Land.

[Armenian]

However, I draw a line with you folks in terms of honoring Hezbollah or any of these Muslim brotherhood type deals. Let's not forget that just as Judaism and the State of Israel is intolerant toward the other, so is Islam. And Islam is not a religion of peace but very much so a religion of hierarchy, subjugation and order. And lest we forget what Islam is about we need only look at our own Armenian history to see that we were a subject peoples under Islam and were discriminated upon and treated as a second class people...

I don't want to sound like an apologist for Islam. I see 'modern' Islam as a primitive and backward religion. To me, Mohammad was not a prophet. However, until you live in the Islamic societies of the Levant and Mesopotamia you don't have the right to make the inaccurate claims you just made. If you want to know what Islamic society is truly like speak to a well educated/well exposed Armenian from Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Iraq or Iran. During the civil war in Lebanon the only problems Armenians had was with Lebanese Christians. Talk to Lucin here about what's it like for Armenians to live under Iran's Islamic society.

It's funny that westerners xxxxx about Islam being intolerant throughout history when the exact opposite has been true. Although non-Muslims lived as second class citizens in Islamic societies, non-Christians in Christian societies of the West, especially Muslims, were exterminated out of existence. Although non-Muslims in Islamic societies were second class citizens, many were allowed to reach high levels. All Muslims living under Christian powers in Europe were either killed, converted or expelled. The only reason why 'xxxs' survived in the West was because of their tight control over Europe's money and trade. All classical Islamic powers, including the Ottomans, have been pluralistic and much more 'liberal' than their western Christian counterparts throughout history.

After losing their independence during the middle ages Armenians fared quite well under Islamic powers, including Turkish. Mohammad himself is said to have given Armenians rights in Jerusalem. After the defeat of the Crusaders in the Middle East in the late 13th century, non of the region's Christians were molested in any way by the victorious and vengeful Muslims. Ottoman Sultans allowed Armenians to establish Patriarchates in Constantinople and Jerusalem. Classical Islam has always been magnanimous in victory, and their medieval societies have been much more sophisticated than their Christian counterparts in the West. Moreover, the Armenian Genocide was a result of pan-Turkic and Zionist manipulations.

The current sad state of Islamic societies have to do with the destruction brought upon by Mongols, Turks and Crusaders. Islamic society never fully recovered from the destruction brought upon by the aforementioned. Moreover, the situation was made worst when the Allies hastily redrew the national boundaries of the Middle East at the end of the First World War for the purpose of exploitation and manipulation. The sick, violent and perverted form of Islam we are seeing today is a modern phenomenon brought upon by a century of western policies in the Middle East as well as the CIA's funding of fanatics in Pakistan during the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. And the oppressive Islamic regimes of the Arabian peninsula, who are the West's closest partners in the region, are that way simply because the West set it up that way at the turn of the 20th century because an oppressive/dictatorial regime was the best bet to secure a constant flow of oil from Arabia to the West.

The 'only' legitimate and honorable organization (political and social) in Lebanon is the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah enjoys very warm relations with the Armenian community of Lebanon. However, it's no secret that these people, those against the Zionist state and the West, are being severely pushed to the their limits. They are being turned into wild animals. Just look at what has happened to the historically peaceful and even docile Arab population of Palestine. It's been a century of constant attacks - military, economic and cultural - against them. So, it would not surprise me if one day these people, turned into wild animals, take their revenge on 'all' Christians in the region. And that would be exactly what the West is actually looking for.

Sadly, the persistent and overwhelming anti-Islam propaganda you are constantly exposed to has effected you subconsciously.

[Armenian]

As much as I disagreed with Anon's statements regarding this topic, I disagree with yours as well. On this matter, you two represent the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Armenians in Iran enjoy more freedom than their muslim citizens. Most of them respect christians, and we are treated fairly well. But one can not close an eye on all the negative things the revolution brought, women are supressed, beaten and killed almost on daily basis. My mother told me once that she was carrying my brother in her arms, the special islam-police with AK-47's almost took her to the police station to beat her up, because you could see a little bit of hair (this is what happened to a lot of women, including Armenians). They also killed an Armenian priest. Life for christians in Iran is not so bad as people think in Europe, but it isn't good aswell. We had our own neighbourhoods and schools and did not ''interact'' with them, only for business purposses.

The Middle East's approach towards societal issues are a direct result of the region's popular culture, its man made traditions. The problem is not religion - the problem is male testosterone. Non-Islamic Indians, Chinese, Native American's, Africans, etc., also treat their women horrendously. Moreover, what the West has done to the honor and integrity of women is equally horrendous. One has turned women into sex slaves the other has turned them into work slaves. What's better? Moreover, modern Islamic fundamentalism, especially the one we see in Palestine, Iran and Pakistan, is directly rooted in 20th century geopolitics.

Now that all the xxxish organizations brought the Armenians to America, everything has changed and gone the wrong way. Our power and influence has dramatically declined, as was the initial plan of the j-e-w-s. They foresaw that in the future the Armenians from Iran would have a connection with an independent Armenia and would repatriate and invest billions of dollers in Armenia. The population could have grown between 500.000 and 1.000.000 Armenians, but now there are at best 100.000 Armenians living in Iran.

This is a gross exaggeration, if not a total fallacy. xxxs did not bring Armenians to America in order to weaken Armenian power in Iran and forestall any future movement to Armenia. That is pure and adulterated paranoia. When we speak in such outlandish terms about our foes, be they Turks or xxxs, it undermines our argument and intellectual integrity.

[B]Armenians flourished best in islamic countries, we had powerfull and tight communities (Syria, Lebanon, Iran) where we maintained our Armenian heritage and culture because we were different from the muslims. We were christians, they where muslims, and this actually saved us.

No. Armenians did not "flourish" in Islamic societies. First of all, Syria and Lebanon are not very Islamic per se due to their contacts with Europe, France and Britain in particular. Nonetheless, these two nations have to be looked upon by Armenians as temporary safe havens. We don't even have a hundred year history in the aforementioned nations and already the Armenian population there is more Arab than Armenian. After several generations there will no longer be an Armenian community of Lebanon and Syria.

Historically, second class Armenians were allowed to quietly live and trade in the Persian and Ottoman empires. Although Armenians were not directly oppressed by Ottoman and Persian authorities and many were allowed to succeed in various careers, the vast majority of Armenians nonetheless could not dream of being anything but second class citizens, or gavurs. Life for the Armenian population under Islamic rule was so stagnant and insular that they began to eventually resemble their Muslim neighbors in culture and in demeanor. By the turn of the 20th century the only thing that could really distinguish an Armenian from his/her Kurdish, Turkish or Persian neighbors was religion.

The culture of Europa, America and Russia ''xxxxed'' up our identity, western-pop-sex-music-hiphop-culture and their ''same'' religion (Armenians often say, you can marry everything except a muslim) was the cause of assimilation, and the Armenian culture and heritage is forgotten on a massive speed. God bless the islamic countries, for where we flourished, lived and maintained our culture.

The culture of the western world is the very heartbeat of the world. Without Europe the world will once again decline into the dark ages.

I rather have my personal freedoms (as well as casual sex, getting drunk and western pop music) than live a desolate life in a little mud hut making donkey saddles all day...

Western culture, Russian in particular, brought us Armenians out of the primitive, Islamic, Anatolian/Middle Eastern lifestyle and into the modern world. Without Russia/western culture Armenia today would not have its institutions of higher learning, its great musical composers, its great war heroes, its great poets, its great artists - its republic...

Times have changed...

Indeed; and Islamic societies are still living in the year 1292 - the year the last western Crusaders were expelled from the Holy Land.

[Armanen]

I rather have my personal freedoms (as well as casual sex, getting drunk and western pop music) than live a desolate life in a little mud hut making donkey saddles all day...

I think he is referring to the modern mtv, xxxx culture. Women aren't women, men are like carpets and have no honor, people are all around stupid and super materialistic. This has and will continue to destory the so called 'free socities' of europe and north america. There is such a thing as too much freedom.

Western culture, Russian in particular, brought us Armenians out of the primitive, Islamic, Anatolian/Middle Eastern lifestyle and into the modern world.

True, at the same time though it was Armenia that allowed Europe to prosper while Armenia manned the gates and prevented the turks from spreading to Europe earlier than they did. Not to mention the numerious achievements of ancient Armenia, from whence Greece and later Rome got much of their know how, and they are often thought of as the founders of so called 'western civilization'.

[Tigranakert]

The Middle East's approach towards societal issues are a direct result of the region's popular culture, its man made traditions. The problem is not religion - the problem is male testosterone. Non-Islamic Indians, Chinese, Native American's, Africans, etc., also treat their women horrendously. Moreover, what the West has done to the honor and integrity of women is equally horrendous. One has turned women into sex slaves the other has turned them into work slaves. What's better? Moreover, modern Islamic fundamentalism, especially the one we see in Palestine, Iran and Pakistan, is directly rooted in 20th century geopolitics.


I have a lot of respect for you Armenian, I have learned a lot from you but I think you are wrong in some points. In Iran women were not treated as bad under the Sjah's regime, they were enjoying a lot of freedom and persian men did respect their women, they were not treating their women ''horrendously'', not as much as they do now.

What is better? The one which is the best for us Armenians! In an islamic society our Armenian women, unlike in the West, married only Armenians. They are not being influenced as much by the hiphop-sex-rap-xxxx culture the West produces.

This is a gross exaggeration, if not a total fallacy. xxxs did not bring Armenians to America in order to weaken Armenian power in Iran and forestall any future movement to Armenia. That is pure and adulterated paranoia. When we speak in such outlandish terms about our foes, be they Turks or xxxs, it undermines our argument and intellectual integrity.

Why must it be a total gross exaggeration, can you explain me why the biggest organization in Iran bringing Armenians to America is funded by the xxxs? They arrange everything, be it money, greencards and tickets. Why should they do that? Because they feel sorry for the Armenians?

No. Armenians did not "flourish" in Islamic societies. First of all, Syria and Lebanon are not very Islamic per se due to their contacts with Europe, France and Britain in particular. Nonetheless, these two nations have to be looked upon by Armenians as temporary safe havens. We don't even have a hundred year history in the aforementioned nations and already the Armenian population there is more Arab than Armenian. After several generations there will no longer be an Armenian community of Lebanon and Syria.


I do not know the situation in Lebanon, but I know the societies in Lebanon brought upon a lot of fedayees and nationalistic Armenians, whereas the Armenians in France (with also a history of 100 years) assimilated much faster than the Armenians in Lebanon. Because Armenians adapt faster to the sex-hiphop-fake-christian culture than the ''Arab'' culture in Lebanon.

Also I am talking about the Iranian-Armenian perspective. There is something you Lebanese Armenains did wrong, or maybe the little bit of freedom you got from the Arabs did make Lebanese Armenians Arabs. Armenians in Iran maintained their Armenian heritage and culture for over 300 hundred year, because of their different religion. They all speak Armenian, attend Armenian churches and have a much stronger relation with Armenia. This has recently changed a little bit because of the very few Armenians living in Iran.

The point is, had the Armenians stayed in these countries, will it be Lebanon, Iran, Syria, they would be in huge numbers. They would have their own huge neigboorhoods, their own Armenian schools (what you rarely have in Western sex-countries) and a lot would speak Armenian, unlike Armenians in the West (France, Russia, America). And from the year 2005-and beyond, I would bet tens of thousands of Armenians from Iran, Lebanon, Syria would have moved to Armenia, would have gone on vacation in Armenia, would have had more connection with their motherland (also for the obvious reason that they are closer to their motherland!). A lot, lot more than Armenians in Western countries do now, that is what I am trying to tell. If the Armenians stayed in these countries, a lot of them would have repatriated back to Armenia or at least invest and go to vacation there, buy homes and businesses. Just look how many Parskahayer there are in Armenia, even if they are as few as they are now. Imagine, if they were one million large...

Historically, second class Armenians were allowed to quietly live and trade in the Persian and Ottoman empires. Although Armenians were not directly oppressed by Ottoman and Persian authorities and many were allowed to succeed in various careers, the vast majority of Armenians nonetheless could not dream of being anything but second class citizens, or gavurs. Life for the Armenian population under Islamic rule was so stagnant and insular that they began to eventually resemble their Muslim neighbors in culture and in demeanor. By the turn of the 20th century the only thing that could really distinguish an Armenian from his/her Kurdish, Turkish or Persian neighbors was religion.

I disagree. Armenians were alloyed to party, to make music, to drink. The islamic regime has surpressed it's own ''muslim'' citizens ten times harder than they did on the Armenians. The Armenians are respected in Iran, if you tell someone you are an Armenian he will look upon you with respect, not because of our religion but because of our reputation. A Turk and a Kurd are looked down upon, and are not comparable with Armenians. And even if they ''supress'' the Armenians, this is a good thing. This was the cause we stayed Armenians, we had our own neigboorhoods and we did not mix. The Western-sex-hiphop-rap culture is ten times as bad.

The culture of the western world is the very heartbeat of the world. Without Europe the world will once again decline into the dark ages.

I rather have my personal freedoms (as well as casual sex, getting drunk and western pop music) than live a desolate life in a little mud hut making donkey saddles all day...

Western culture, Russian in particular, brought us Armenians out of the primitive, Islamic, Anatolian/Middle Eastern lifestyle and into the modern world. Without Russia/western culture Armenia today would not have its institutions of higher learning, its great musical composers, its great war heroes, its great poets, its great artists - its republic...


Armenian, the point is that if Armenians stayed in the islamic countries, they would have repatriated much faster back to Armenia when Armenia got her independence, was stable and economical ''free''. I am not saying Armenians must have lived in these countries for their entire life, no! They should have maintained there untill they repatriated back to our free Armenia! What they would have done faster because Armenia would have been ten timer better than the islamic countries they lived in.

I am talking about the Diaspora, not what Russia's influence was on Armenia. If Armenians repatriated, the Armenians now in Armenia could have learned the primitive, islamic-Anatolian Armenians from Iran or Lebanon, the real amazing modern and Western culture they learned from Russia.

Monte Melkonian also discussed this topic and came to the obvious conclusion that Armenians from islamic countries are far more attached to their motherland and patriotic compared to the Armenians in Western hiphop-sex countries.

[Tigranakert]

By the way, the organizations name is Hayasa, a few months ago they ''helped'' my fathers uncle and his family by bringing them to Vienna and from there on to America.

[Krazy]

No. Armenians did not "flourish" in Islamic societies. First of all, Syria and Lebanon are not very Islamic per se due to their contacts with Europe, France and Britain in particular. Nonetheless, these two nations have to be looked upon by Armenians as temporary safe havens. We don't even have a hundred year history in the aforementioned nations and already the Armenian population there is more Arab than Armenian. After several generations there will no longer be an Armenian community of Lebanon and Syria.

Living in one of the countries mentioned, I don't think what you're saying is correct. With the 10+ Armenian schools, 1 Armenian university, 3 Armenian political parties and many Armenian organizations in this small country; I think we are doing a good job to remain Armenians.
Here in Lebanon, we even get blamed of not considering ourselves Lebanese.

btw I had the impression that Armenians in western countries have more chance to lose their Armenian identity than us in Lebanon. It seems without seeing each other, it makes us think the same way regarding the other Armenians.

note: the subject is "Hezbollah". Why are all of you (not only the quote I made) discussing about something not related to Hezbollah? :)

[Armenian]

I think he is referring to the modern mtv, xxxx culture. Women aren't women, men are like carpets and have no honor, people are all around stupid and super materialistic. This has and will continue to destory the so called 'free socities' of europe and north america. There is such a thing as too much freedom.

You know what Armenen, compared to the East the West has always been so-called decadent; at least since Roman times. [It's just that American pop culture pushed the envelope quite a bit] But this is the price a society pays for individual freedoms. However, it is through individual freedoms that progress and development occurs. Therefore, it's a two sided coin. The problem I see in the West today is the 'corporate/government' sponsored American pop culture that is being push on us all by globalists. Nonetheless, I rather deal with social problems such as drug and sex abuse than live like some religious fanatic's slave. Individual freedoms are essential to the forward evolution of mankind. However, knowing the nature of mankind, I agree that it has to be somewhat regulated.

True, at the same time though it was Armenia that allowed Europe to prosper while Armenia manned the gates and prevented the turks from spreading to Europe earlier than they did. Not to mention the numerious achievements of ancient Armenia, from whence Greece and later Rome got much of their know how, and they are often thought of as the founders of so called 'western civilization'.

Yeah well, armed with that information and $2 will get you a ride on the New York City subway... The question is never - what have you done for me in the past. It's - what have you done for me lately.

[Armenian]

I have a lot of respect for you Armenian, I have learned a lot from you but I think you are wrong in some points.

Thank you, enker. We are simply debating a topic, I don't expect you to agree with me on all points.

In Iran women were not treated as bad under the Sjah's regime, they were enjoying a lot of freedom and persian men did respect their women, they were not treating their women ''horrendously'', not as much as they do now.

I agree. I never said otherwise. The problem with Iran is 20th century geopolitics. Had it not been for the West, Iran today would most probably have been the most advanced, most prosperous nation in the region.

What is better? The one which is the best for us Armenians! In an islamic society our Armenian women, unlike in the West, married only Armenians. They are not being influenced as much by the hiphop-sex-rap-xxxx culture the West produces.

In that sense, I agree. In Islamic societies Armenians are forced to keep amongst themselves. However, this brings up the question of Diaspora. What the xxxxing point of maintaining an Armenian identity in the Diaspora?

Why must it be a total gross exaggeration, can you explain me why the biggest organization in Iran bringing Armenians to America is funded by the xxxs? They arrange everything, be it money, greencards and tickets. Why should they do that? Because they feel sorry for the Armenians?

Many things in this world is run by them. And not everything is a xxxish conspiracy to depopulate Armenia. Besides which, Armenia is just a hop, skip and a jump away for most Persian-Armenians. If an Armenian living in Iran wants to leave its probably easier for him/her to move to Armenia than to America. Their primary intention is to undermine the Iranian state.

I do not know the situation in Lebanon, but I know the societies in Lebanon brought upon a lot of fedayees and nationalistic Armenians, whereas the Armenians in France (with also a history of 100 years) assimilated much faster than the Armenians in Lebanon. Because Armenians adapt faster to the sex-hiphop-fake-christian culture than the ''Arab'' culture in Lebanon.

The secret of understanding Lebanon's unique Armenian population is the genocide era ghetto there called Burj hamood. Most of Lebanon's Armenians originated in this ghetto, including myself. And like Palestinians growing up in their refugee camps since 1948 were taught to hate Israelis, Lebanese Armenians were programmed by the Bolshevik Hnchak and National Socialist Dashnak organizations in Lebanon to hate Turks. Living under very low living standards many of the uneducated ghetto dwellers made excellent candidates for paramilitary operations; and some of these individuals ended up in Armenia in the early stages of the Artsakh war. However, the stature of Armenians living in Lebanon is fast diminishing. Armenians there now number less than 100,000 and most of them are very cosmopolitan in nature and character. Nevertheless, don't fool yourself into thinking that Lebanese Armenians maintain a high understanding of pan-nationalism. Lebanese Armenians are simply proud about who 'they' are. It's a tribal pride. They are proud Armenians, they are not nationalists. There is a huge difference between proud Armenian and a nationalist Armenian. Moreover, their deep love for Lebanon can't be compared to a love for any other nation including Armenia. Although they will deny it a majority of them appreciate Turkish culture more than the "Russified" or "Communist" culture of Armenia.

And if you want to hear some of the nastiest things said about the Armenian Republic and its citizens, speak to a typical Armenian from Lebanon, or Syria, or Turkey.

Also I am talking about the Iranian-Armenian perspective. There is something you Lebanese Armenains did wrong, or maybe the little bit of freedom you got from the Arabs did make Lebanese Armenians Arabs. Armenians in Iran maintained their Armenian heritage and culture for over 300 hundred year, because of their different religion. They all speak Armenian, attend Armenian churches and have a much stronger relation with Armenia. This has recently changed a little bit because of the very few Armenians living in Iran.

Iranian Armenians have had the privilege of living in an Islamic society that has respected them. That's it. The Islamic society kept Armenians to themselves and the respect made them comfortable.

But again, what's the point of being 'proud' about how long you have maintained your identity in the diaspora?

[Armanen]

You know what Armanen, compared to the East the West has always been so-called decadent

I wasn't trying to compare the two historically, only recently and even then it's quite hard. Some periods have seen more immorality than others, for example the pre-Victorian era in Europe, or the pre-Ming dynasty in medeval China. It's just in human nature to take the easy route, which is often the immoral one. You hit the nail right on the head with this one, modern pop (sl*t) culture is mass produced and spread through all channels worldwide in order to make as many people as possible brain-dead, mass consumers with nothing on their mind other than the new iPod or new flavor of miller lite that they just have to get. Whether one is ok or even comfortable with this is another issue, but for millions around the world the 'west' has come to symbolize mindless creatures with three main drives: eating, sh*ting and fu*king.

However, it is through individual freedoms that progress and development occurs.

I agree, but you know as well as anyone else that individual freedom can occur just as well and even be directed toward more utility in other types of government too. Too often people place individual freedom and liberal democracy side by side as of the two are mutually inclusive.

The question is never - what have you done for me in the past. It's - what have you done for me lately.

Indeed. And that applies just as well with what the 'west' has done for Armenia.

[Armenian]

Living in one of the countries mentioned, I don't think what you're saying is correct. With the 10+ Armenian schools, 1 Armenian university, 3 Armenian political parties and many Armenian organizations in this small country

You must be "Krazy" if you think you will maintain that status forever. Tell me, how is the Armenian community in Lebanon doing today compared to the early 1970s? And don't blame the civil war, it's the Middle East, and wars there are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. And tell me how close you are to your ancestral homeland, Armenia? Not by words, but by action.

If you are a typical 'proud' Lebanese-Armenian:

You have not set foot in Armenia, although it's literally couple of hours away.

And if you did go to Armenia as a tourist (and not on a gold/diamond buying spree) you probably did not enjoy yourself very much.

You look down at Armenians from Armenia as being either xxxxs or crooks, depending on the gender.

You complain that they speak Armenian mixed with Russian - while you speak Armenian mixed with Turkish, Arabic, French and English.

You feel 'culturally' much closer to Arabs, sometimes the French, and whether you admit it or not, Turks.

I think we are doing a good job to remain Armenians. Here in Lebanon, we even get blamed of not considering ourselves Lebanese.


"Remain Armenians" to what end, Krazy? Living in the diaspora is one thing, but proudly boasting a 'diaspora forever' attitude is counterproductive. What matters in any discussion about Armenians is the well being of the Armenian Republic. Regardless of what you want to believe, the diaspora is a dead end. While the Diaspora exists it should exists for the benefit of the Armenian Republic. Other than an insignificant number of fighters and some small scale benefactors, what has the majority of the proud and nationalistic Lebanese Armenian community done for Armenia?

For me, a single repatriated Armenian in Armenia, or an Armenian that keeps an intimate connection with his/her homeland, is worth more than the entire Armenian diaspora.

[SoyElTurco]

The current sad state of Islamic societies have to do with the destruction brought upon by Mongols, Turks and Crusaders. Islamic society never fully recovered from the destruction brought upon by the aforementioned. Moreover, the situation was made worst when the Allies hastily redrew the national boundaries of the Middle East at the end of the First World War for the purpose of exploitation and manipulation. The sick, violent and perverted form of Islam we are seeing today is a modern phenomenon brought upon by a century of western policies in the Middle East as well as the CIA's funding of fanatics in Pakistan during the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. And the oppressive Islamic regimes of the Arabian peninsula, who are the West's closest partners in the region, are that way simply because the West set it up that way at the turn of the 20th century because an oppressive/dictatorial regime was the best bet to secure a constant flow of oil from Arabia to the West.

The 'only' legitimate and honorable organization (political and social) in Lebanon is the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah enjoys very warm relations with the Armenian community of Lebanon. However, it's no secret that these people, those against the Zionist state and the West, are being severely pushed to the their limits. They are being turned into wild animals. Just look at what has happened to the historically peaceful and even docile Arab population of Palestine. It's been a century of constant attacks - military, economic and cultural - against them. So, it would not surprise me if one day these people, turned into wild animals, take their revenge on 'all' Christians in the region. And that would be exactly what the West is actually looking for.

Sadly, the persistent and overwhelming anti-Islam propaganda you are constantly exposed to has effected you subconsciously.


I think you have a misconception about the misconception. If you read our legal texts, you wouldn't make such a statement based solely on political history. Read our books before you understand our behavior through your comfortable "well-researched," "educated," and "academic" analysis of the current Islamic phenomena.

You probably have no clue how systematic and scurpulous legal texts are. For you to narrow "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam"down to a product of Western fabrication is completely unprecise. Do you not think it's possibe that this "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam" is a product of our own volution based on a valid and legitimate understanding of our legal texts. I'm not saying it is, but what I want to emphasize is that it seems you've completed dismissed or ommitted autonomy that Muslims may have had in producing this "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam" yet perhaps valid interpretation of legal scripture.

Just because outsiders may be able to influence the behaviors of certain pawn populations in the direction they want, that does not mean there aren't intelligent enough people who can independently conclude that the direction of the spinned popuation is not in complete disagreement with the direction it is sanctioned to be in by its own jurisdiction.

One quick example is Wahhabism. Indeed it was perverted strain that emerged in the late 18th century and then played by the British to dismantle the Ottoman Empire. But now, in the 21st Century, it backfired on them (Bin Laden). The point is, Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product though his movement may have been financed by them at one point. Read our own books. Go to the source of our thinking.

[Armanen]

Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product

You're right, he is a western agent. :D

[Armenian]

The point is, Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product though his movement may have been financed by them at one point. Read our own books. Go to the source of our thinking.

Why so touchy, ElTurco? My comments were constructed from a general premise that Islamic populations have an inherent weakness towards manipulation and exploitation due to their insular and backward lifestyles similar to other third world peoples. My comments were simply meant to drive a point across about the political manipulations of the West in Islamic nations without getting into a detailed conversation about Islamic law and the behavioral psychology in individual Muslims. Nor do I care to learn about your books. So, let me rephrase it: Muslims are predisposed to violence and primitive behavior due to certain cultural and religious elements found in their societies. Western powers seeing this have been manipulating it for generations. It's that simple. Are you happy now?

[Federate]

You must be "Krazy" if you think you will maintain that status forever. Tell me, how is the Armenian community in Lebanon doing today compared to the early 1970s? And don't blame the civil war, it's the Middle East, and wars there are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. And tell me how close you are to your ancestral homeland, Armenia? Not by words, but by action.
Of course you have to blame the civil war, people left Lebanon in masses during those long 15 years. As the population decreases, so does the effectiveness of a community. In addition, the unwritten rule of a Diasporan community is this: as time passes by (90+ years now for our Lebanon community), the probability that the community will assimilate increases. However, there are still many Lebanese-Armenians there and quite frankly, I'd prefer their patriotism over some westernized-Armenian who does not know sh!t about his or her heritage. I'm sure you do as well.


If you are a typical 'proud' Lebanese-Armenian:

You have not set foot in Armenia, although it's literally couple of hours away.

And if you did go to Armenia as a tourist (and not on a gold/diamond buying spree) you probably did not enjoy yourself very much.

You look down at Armenians from Armenia as being either xxxxs or crooks, depending on the gender.

You complain that they speak Armenian mixed with Russian - while you speak Armenian mixed with Turkish, Arabic, French and English.

You feel 'culturally' much closer to Arabs, sometimes the French, and whether you admit it or not, Turks.

It's not always fun being called an "akhpar", nor was 46-48. Levon's tyranny did not help at all either, especially with his purging of the Dashnaktsutyun. Your expectations are set too high, Armenian, especially knowing that the Diaspora is nothing but a temporary state of existence, a long countdown to assimilation. Lebanese-Armenians, like all Diasporans, have a legitimate reason of not speaking perfect Armenian. However, the same cannot be true for the motherland where everything is in Armenian, everyone is Armenian and it has been independent of Soviet rule for almost 20 years now. Lebanese-Armenians, despite all the slang (slang also present in Armenia), probably have the best education/knowledge of Armenian among the Diaspora.

Other than an insignificant number of fighters and some small scale benefactors, what has the majority of the proud and nationalistic Lebanese Armenian community done for Armenia?
Lebanon is regularly the top investor in Armenia, even more than Russia (probably up until this year, when the Russian government injected a bunch). For example, see this link from last year http://www.huliq.com/23623/armenia-posts-44-increase-in-foreign-investments-in-q-1 . And something tells me it's not the Lebanese government that is interested in investing in Armenia. Lebanon was from where the majority of "Nerkaght"-ers came from, ASALA, JCAG, ARA were all founded and were HQ-ed in Lebanon, Monte Melkonian learned Armenian in Lebanon etc. You know all this so I am probably preaching to the choir :) They're not all that bad, they should serve as a model for all the Diaspora communities.

[Armenian]

Your expectations are set too high, Armenian,

My expectations are no higher than yours, enker. I expect Armenians regardless of where they live to look towards Armenia as their homeland and stop their clannish behavior, this goes for Armenians from Armenia as well. To me, an assimilated Armenian in the West and a proud Armenian without connections to his/her motherland in Lebanon are the same xxxx. Actually, I would be able to tolerate the assimilated Armenian better...

Lebanese-Armenians, like all Diasporans, have a legitimate reason of not speaking perfect Armenian. However, the same cannot be true for the motherland where everything is in Armenian, everyone is Armenian and it has been independent of Soviet rule for almost 20 years now. Lebanese-Armenians, despite all the slang (slang also present in Armenia), probably have the best education/knowledge of Armenian among the Diaspora.

In reality the opposite was true during the Soviet Years. Moscow suppressed the usage of the Armenian language. The best schools in Armenia operated in Russian. And I would prefer the ugly street slang of Yerevan over the Arabic-Turkish crap spoken in the streets of Burj hamood. Nonetheless, the stature of Armenians in Lebanon is decreasing yearly.

Lebanon is regularly the top investor in Armenia, even more than Russia (probably up until this year, when the Russian government injected a bunch). For example, see this link from last year http://www.huliq.com/23623/armenia-posts-44-increase-in-foreign-investments-in-q-1 .

Dude, please. This is betting silly now. What you are doing here is spin. Russia is said to have invested about a billion dollars into the Armenian economy last year and hundreds of millions in the preceding years and you happened to have found a small time segment on the calendar where Lebanon did better? Get real, please. Over a billion dollars gets pumped into Armenia from Russia annually. Why don't you look into that investment from Lebanon. Was it Armenians in Lebanon or was it some inter-governmental deal between Yerevan and Beirut. What has Lebanon done before that and after that? The fact remains, other than a handful of outstanding individuals, I have not seen anything of substance from Armenians of Lebanon.

They're not all that bad, they should serve as a model for all the Diaspora communities.

I agree that not all are bad, but a vast majority are worthless. And their disdain towards the homeland and its people, regardless of "akhpar", "46-48," "Levon" (who is an Akhpar by the way), is despicable and inexcusable.

I have in my family individuals that would never even think about stepping foot in Armenia. I many know individuals that say Western Armenia is their homeland and not the current republic in the Caucasus. I know many individuals that look upon Armenians from Armenia as lowlives. And these people that I'm talking about, my relatives and friends of my relatives, are "proud Armenians" - like the rest of the Lebanese Armenians. But you tell me, Federate. What good are they as Armenians?

[Federate]

My expectations are no higher than yours, enker. I expect Armenians regardless of where they live to look towards Armenia as their homeland and stop their clannish behavior, this goes for Armenians from Armenia as well. To me, an assimilated Armenian in the West and a proud Armenian without connections to his/her motherland in Lebanon are the same xxxx. Actually, I would be able to tolerate the assimilated Armenian better...
Most Armenians in the Diaspora have no clue about what Armenia, the present independent republic, is. They have been in exile for three generations now so the process of looking towards Armenia is very difficult for them. I wish the same as well but it is very hard to expect that they will, there are all kinds of barriers whether we like it or not. A nation of 10 million speaks 2 dialects and has evolved in two different atmospheres for so long for example.

An assimilated Armenian is no longer Armenian my friend, they are just as good as odars.


In reality the opposite was true during the Soviet Years. Moscow suppressed the usage of the Armenian language. The best schools in Armenia operated in Russian. And I would prefer the ugly street slang of Yerevan over the Arabic-Turkish crap spoken in the streets of Burj hamood. Nonetheless, the stature of Armenians in Lebanon is decreasing yearly.
Despite the existence of suppression, people were all Armenians and the Armenian language was fully functional in the country, being the recognized official language in the SSR (alongside Russian). There was/is no danger of assimilation in our republic.

The stature of the Armenians in Lebanon, like every single Diasporan community, will decrease yearly per the "diaspora rule". The difference is that it took way longer to happen in Lebanon than in any other country. It's been 90 years since the establishment of the Lebanese-Armenian community and they are still going strong.


Dude, please. This is betting silly now. What you are doing here is spin. Russia is said to have invested about a billion dollars into the Armenian economy last year and hundreds of millions in the preceding years and you happened to have found a small time segment on the calendar where Lebanon did better? Get real, please. Over a billion dollars gets pumped into Armenia from Russia annually. Why don't you look into that investment from Lebanon. Was it Armenians in Lebanon or was it some inter-governmental deal between Yerevan and Beirut. What has Lebanon done before that and after that? The fact remains, other than a handful of outstanding individuals, I have not seen anything of substance from Armenians of Lebanon.
It's not silly my friend, I am not spinning anything. That figure was from 2007, here's one from 2005 http://www.armeniadiaspora.net/ADC/news.asp?id=213 . Mind you that the community like you said is shrinking (you claimed less than 100 000) so the investments will generally fall. Russia has over 2 million Armenians, many of them generous billionaires and many of them with family in Armenia, on top of the country being our big brother. It is expected to happen.


I agree that not all are bad, but a vast majority are worthless. And their disdain towards the homeland and its people, regardless of "akhpar", "46-48," "Levon" (who is an Akhpar by the way), is despicable and inexcusable.

I have in my family individuals that would never even think about stepping foot in Armenia. I many know individuals that say Western Armenia is their homeland and not the current republic in the Caucasus. I know many individuals that look upon Armenians from Armenia as lowlives. And these people that I'm talking about, my relatives and friends of my relatives, are "proud Armenians" - like the rest of the Lebanese Armenians. But you tell me, Federate. What good are they as Armenians?
They form part of our Diaspora, which is Armenia's greatest asset. Unfortunately, our greatest asset has been mismanaged internally and from Armenia as well...up until this year with the establishment of the Ministry of Diaspora, I hope.

[Armenian]

An assimilated Armenian is no longer Armenian my friend, they are just as good as odars.

I'm fully capable of appreciating an odar''s company, although my friends are primarily Armenians. I think there is a lot we Armenians can learn from certain westerners.However, when I come across "proud" Armenians who are anti-Armenia I cant find anything redeemable in them. Perhaps one day they may wake up from their stupidity but I am not going to waste my time waiting for them...

It's not silly my friend, I am not spinning anything. That figure was from 2007, here's one from 2005 http://www.armeniadiaspora.net/ADC/news.asp?id=213 . Mind you that the community like you said is shrinking (you claimed less than 100 000) so the investments will generally fall. Russia has over 2 million Armenians, many of them generous billionaires and many of them with family in Armenia, on top of the country being our big brother. It is expected to happen.

These figures are very misleading, enker. So, based on that list of top foreign investors in Armenia Greece is supposedly a top investor as well? The money that pushed Greece to the top of the list has to do with a single project, one investment, Armentel, never mind that they totally xxxxed it up and eventually sold it to the Russians. With the Lebanese investment, the 50-60 million dollar figure probably has to do with the Lebanon based Vivacell, Armenia's largest wireless company, which was also then sold to the Russians last year (for over $400 million). Nonetheless, Russia has been by far Armenia's largest trading partner to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars annually. Without Russian trade, investment and money transactions Armenia simply would not survive. Let's not create fairytales regarding Lebanon. Please.

[Anonymouse]

I don't want to sound like an apologist for Islam. I see 'modern' Islam as a primitive and backward religion. To me, Mohammad was not a prophet. However, until you live in the Islamic societies of the Levant and Mesopotamia you don't have the right to make the inaccurate claims you just made. If you want to know what Islamic society is truly like speak to a well educated/well exposed Armenian from Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Iraq or Iran. During the civil war in Lebanon the only problems Armenians had was with Lebanese Christians. Talk to Lucin here about what's it like for Armenians to live under Iran's Islamic society.

It's funny that westerners xxxxx about Islam being intolerant throughout history when the exact opposite has been true. Although non-Muslims lived as second class citizens in Islamic societies, non-Christians in Christian societies of the West, especially Muslims, were exterminated out of existence. Although non-Muslims in Islamic societies were second class citizens, many were allowed to reach high levels. All Muslims living under Christian powers in Europe were either killed, converted or expelled. The only reason why 'xxxs' survived in the West was because of their tight control over Europe's money and trade. All classical Islamic powers, including the Ottomans, have been pluralistic and much more 'liberal' than their western Christian counterparts throughout history.

After losing their independence during the middle ages Armenians fared quite well under Islamic powers, including Turkish. Mohammad himself is said to have given Armenians rights in Jerusalem. After the defeat of the Crusaders in the Middle East in the late 13th century, non of the region's Christians were molested in any way by the victorious and vengeful Muslims. Ottoman Sultans allowed Armenians to establish Patriarchates in Constantinople and Jerusalem. Classical Islam has always been magnanimous in victory, and their medieval societies have been much more sophisticated than their Christian counterparts in the West. Moreover, the Armenian Genocide was a result of pan-Turkic and Zionist manipulations.

The current sad state of Islamic societies have to do with the destruction brought upon by Mongols, Turks and Crusaders. Islamic society never fully recovered from the destruction brought upon by the aforementioned. Moreover, the situation was made worst when the Allies hastily redrew the national boundaries of the Middle East at the end of the First World War for the purpose of exploitation and manipulation. The sick, violent and perverted form of Islam we are seeing today is a modern phenomenon brought upon by a century of western policies in the Middle East as well as the CIA's funding of fanatics in Pakistan during the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. And the oppressive Islamic regimes of the Arabian peninsula, who are the West's closest partners in the region, are that way simply because the West set it up that way at the turn of the 20th century because an oppressive/dictatorial regime was the best bet to secure a constant flow of oil from Arabia to the West.

The 'only' legitimate and honorable organization (political and social) in Lebanon is the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah enjoys very warm relations with the Armenian community of Lebanon. However, it's no secret that these people, those against the Zionist state and the West, are being severely pushed to the their limits. They are being turned into wild animals. Just look at what has happened to the historically peaceful and even docile Arab population of Palestine. It's been a century of constant attacks - military, economic and cultural - against them. So, it would not surprise me if one day these people, turned into wild animals, take their revenge on 'all' Christians in the region. And that would be exactly what the West is actually looking for.

Sadly, the persistent and overwhelming anti-Islam propaganda you are constantly exposed to has effected you subconsciously.

Oh please save me the guff about how we are all slaves of Western propaganda but you have figured this out because you have lived among Muslims and therefore we are all wrong and you are right.

What you conveniently do is the same thing you accuse "Westerners" of doing, and that is cherry picking those things which conform to your ideology and conveniently ignoring all those details that are harmful to your argument.

I have not come here in an effort to smear Islam, the substance of that religion and its history does it itself, but merely to give a proper balance to the almost unchecked Islam praise that goes on in this forum by you and several other posters.

I understand what you guys are doing, and you are providing a counterweight to the pro-Israeli propaganda in the Western world, which is fair and just. I also agree the way Hamas, or Hezbollah are portrayed in the media is again frustrating and unjust.

However, be that as it may, let's not forget the fundamental point that Islam is still Islam, and it is a closed-system, in that it has its own set of rules and regulations and lest you think it is high and dandy, it is not, for it is precisely based in distinguishing between those who are and are not Muslim, and all laws and taxation revolve around these religious lines of demarcation. If Islam is so good, why have Armenians more or less sought to leave Islamic societies and have done so?

Islam is not just a religion, but it is also a culture, an outlook and way of life and embedded in political and familial relations. Contrary to the Western world which has a division between the religious and secular worlds, Islam never underwent such a transformation and thus it has remained stagnant for ages.

As Mises said of Islam, "The religion of Islam has not changed since the days of the Arab conquests. Their literature, their philosophies continue to repeat the old ideas and do not penetrate beyond the circle of theology. One looks in vain among them for men and movements such as Western Christianity has produced in each century. They maintain their identity only by rejecting everything foreign and ‘different,’ by traditionalism and conservatism. Only their hatred of everything foreign rouses them to great deeds from time to time. All new sects, even the new doctrines which arise with them, are nothing more than echoes of this fight against the foreign, the new, the infidel."

And let's not forget the incident a while back with those cartoons of Mohammad that incited the Muslims across the Muslim world to attack and burn the Danish and other Western embassies because they were offended. So now, not even a Westerner in their country can dare express freedom of thought because it is offensive to some backward Muslims. Nor shall we forget the murder of Theo van Gogh. That Armenians fared well under Islamic societies is duly noted and no one argues against that. There have also been not so pleasant experiences of being second class citizens.

My point is, if Islam becomes a power again, which it will, and/or establishes a caliphate or gets Armenians under its rule of thumb, it will not be pretty and we would dream of the days when we were our own secular kings.

[Krazy]

I don't have time to answer by quoting part by part but I noticed from one of Armenian's reply that he's basing his analysis by what his relatives do. Please do not generalize what your relatives are saying and claim all the Lebanese Armenians are like that.
For example, I know many Armenians in USA who don't even speak Armenian. Can I generalize it on all the Armenians in USA?
Hopefully one day you'll visit Lebanon and during that visit, I advise you to visit the Armenian schools and scouts.

About the investments (even though I believe not everything comes with money), I don't have figures with me right now but you have to take into account the number of citizens and make a relative comparison. Please do so Mr. Armenian and let us know the numbers.

I prefer such discussions to happen in a different thread and not inside Hezballah thread.

[Hye_Psycho]

My point is, if Islam becomes a power again, which it will, and/or establishes a caliphate or gets Armenians under its rule of thumb, it will not be pretty and we would dream of the days when we were our own secular kings.

A well conceived argument, especially given the horrific treatment Armenians had to endure under the various Arabic caliphate regimes, which expanded their control over the Armenian Highlands. Motivated By the promise of dark-eyed Armenian Virgins, they massacred Armenians on mass, plundered cities, burnt down churches with villagers still inside them... Armenians were declared Dhimmis plenty of motive for then Arab governor of Armenia, Abd-Allah, to wreak a path of death and destruction in his travels around the country.

The bottom line is that under the Islamic Arab rule of Armenia, the caliphate was nothing short of savage, barbaric and in some circumstances proto-genocidal. But how much of this was the actual workings of theological Islam? As apposed to the institutional political creature? It’s the very same monster that rears its ugly head in Christianity, Judaism ext…

Albeit the Arabs treated us terribly, did the self-absorbed, self-righteous Greek clergymen of the Byzantine Empire treat us any better? At the very same time we had a religious fight on our hands against Islam, the Greco-Christian orthodox dogs were doing just as worse in their geopolitical tyrannic bid to bring the Armenian Church into their fold.

It’s the extremist, political-religious doctrines, which spur on violent and barbaric actions. I try and always give the benefit of the doubt to religion and in particular Islam. But logic tells me Anonymous is right, it’s true that their doctrine is especially repressive for the non-believer.

The problem I have is, having not read the Koran, establishing whether those extreme sentiments are actually true (i.e. Mohamed’s spoken words) or Zionist/western manipulation or offcourse that political bureaucratic creature driven by corrupted individuals ??

[Armenian]

My point is...

It's funny that your post basically repeated everything I have been saying to you and to ElTurco, albeit from a different perspective.

This is not a personal contest to see who can out debate the other, try to be objective and a little more well versed in the region's history.

This argument does not have to be based on whether or not we Armenians want or should to live under Islamic rule. This is a silly proposition. Let's get our minds out of the swamps of the past, we have a free Republic that can defend itself and we also have a Christian/western/secular giant in the region that won't be going anywhere any time soon... Moreover, global Islam will 'not' be making a come back. If you really believe that its proof that you are truly effected by western (more specifically neocon/Zionist) propaganda.

And my point is: Islam per se is not the problem, the problem is regional geopolitics and culture clash. Whoever gains supreme power in any given region they will be prone to abuse their power regardless of religion or nationality. No one here is advocating living under Islam, God forbid. We had too many centuries of that. However, an argument can be made that if we Armenians had to 'choose' living under Islam over living under some secular western power, it would be in the best longterm interests of the Armenian people to live under Islam. Nevertheless, it is also in Armenia's short term and long term interests to be in a close alliance with an Islamic nation like Iran, respect entities like Hezbollah and feel for the plight of Palestinians and Iraqis.

And addressing Hye Psycho's reply:

We must remember that Armenian history, until recent years, was written by our clergy. Thus, they are biased to a great degree. Non-Christian Mongols, Turks and Arabs were recorded in their annals as mythological barbarians. While all the clergy's negative materials written about the no-less violent Byzantines have been more-or-less theological disputes. Culture plays a big role in perception. It's not a secret to any serious historian that historical events are often exaggerated by the writers of history for political purpose. The reality of history is somewhat different, often times quite different. For example: the war between Armenians and Persians at Vardananq is a one sided and quite exaggerated account of what actually may have taken place. There were no 360,000 Persian attacking in the plains of Avarayr, Vasak was not a traitor to the Armenian people (he was actually a pragmatic patriot) and Zoroastrians were not Godless demons. Although the Arab invasion of the Armenian Highlands was brutal (just like the Roman, Persian, Assyrian, Macedonian, Byzantine, Mongol, Turkic invasions of the area) Arab Caliphates nevertheless did managed to form an alliance with Armenia's Bagratuni nobles and even backed them in their problems with Byzantium. A period of progress and development was ushered under this alliance.

Islam like Christianity is not a monolith. Peoples of Islam are not a monolith. Are they generally speaking backward, yes. Are they prone to vigilance, yes. Have we suffered under their rule, yes. But the aforementioned could be said of many non-Muslim peoples we have been in contact with - Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Persians, Bolsheviks, Mongols, etc.

Brutality has no religion. Brutality is derived from a lack of education, greed and/or desperation. Persistent western propaganda about Islam has effected all of you.

[jgk3]

nice post Armenian. The keeping of cultural perspectives and geopolitical reality balanced cannot be stressed enough. I guess otherwise, understanding history, let alone the present, becomes a futile, self absorbedly shortsighted act.

[Anonymouse]

It's funny that your post basically repeated everything I have been saying to you and to ElTurco, albeit from a different perspective.

This is not a personal contest to see who can out debate the other, try to be objective and a little more well versed in the region's history.

This argument does not have to be based on whether or not we Armenians want or should to live under Islamic rule. This is a silly proposition. Let's get our minds out of the swamps of the past, we have a free Republic that can defend itself and we also have a Christian/western/secular giant in the region that won't be going anywhere any time soon... Moreover, global Islam will 'not' be making a come back. If you really believe that its proof that you are truly effected by western (more specifically neocon/Zionist) propaganda.

I disagree with this. That you personally think Islam will 'not make a comeback' is completely irrelevant to the way things seem to be headed. Secular societies are in decline. While people in secular societies are dabbling in their enervated passions and searching for the ideal thrills, traditional and religious societies like Arabs are breeding like rabbits making the future soldiers of a revitalizing and hungry civilization.

After all, who at the time could have predicted that Rome, or the Soviet Union would one day collapse? Even around Israel, the Palestinian birthrate is staggering and exponentially rising and outpacing the xxxish population in that area and will in the future outnumber them.

And my point is: Islam per se is not the problem, the problem is regional geopolitics and culture clash. Whoever gains supreme power in any given region they will be prone to abuse their power regardless of religion or nationality. No one here is advocating living under Islam, God forbid. We had too many centuries of that. However, an argument can be made that if we Armenians had to 'choose' living under Islam over living under some secular western power, it would be in the best longterm interests of the Armenian people to live under Islam. Nevertheless, it is also in Armenia's short term and long term interests to be in a close alliance with an Islamic nation like Iran, respect entities like Hezbollah and feel for the plight of Palestinians and Iraqis.


And this is my point, you cannot separate geopolitics and culture from the religion in Islam because it is an integrated system. You are using Western metrics and trying to apply it to the Middle East. This is precisely why Samuel Huntington wrote "The Clash of Civilizations" not because geopolitics and culture are different from the religion in Islam, but precisely because this is one and the same in Islam.

I also disagree that it would be in the interest of Armenians living under an Islamic society as opposed to a Western secular one. Let's ask some Armenians about the not so pretty nature of living under the thumb of Islamic rule where you are told what status you are, how you must dress, etc. Islam is backward in that it stunts growth and intellectual progress and you want Armenians to live under an atmosphere of such ultra-conservatism? You would want Armenians to live as second class citizens in Islamic society because of their religion? To pay the jizya and make life more difficult for them? So Islamic authorities can seize churches whenever they wanted them without due process?

This is the way Islam had been for centuries until Western pressure forced a weakened Ottoman empire to loosen these and emancipate the dhimmis. Even most governments in the Middle East are a relic from an era where Western power was strong and imposed these values and parliamentarian forms of government on these societies. As Western power is now receding, these traditional societies are beginning to show cracks and reverting back to their older ways of fanaticism.

While Armenia should maintain warm and good relations and try to keep neutral, this has nothing to do with the arguments at hand. Armenia can still be respectful and neutral in affairs that don't concern it, without somehow giving anything up.

I appreciate and respect all the contributions you and many of the nationalist posters here have offered over time, but I completely disagree with this blind cheerleading of Islam. You can still state your grievances and your anti-Western and anti-Israeli persuasion without having to go from one roof to under another.

[Armenian]

I don't have time to answer by quoting part by part but I noticed from one of Armenian's reply that he's basing his analysis by what his relatives do. Please do not generalize what your relatives are saying and claim all the Lebanese Armenians are like that.

Dude, regardless of one's nationality, Armenian, Turk, xxx or European, I respect intellectual honesty.

Why are you so intent on protecting the "Lebanese" aspect of Armenians. Why don't you just come out and say it, Krazy: To me Armenia is just an ideological notion in my mind, but I'm a proud diasporan-Lebanese-Armenian and I will die as one...

Had you said that I'd have more respect for your argument.

One of the many problems we have as a nation today is precisely this primitive tribal mentality - Russian-Armenian, American-Armenian, Lebanese-Armenian, Iranian-Armenian, Hayastantsi-Armenian. [The other major problem we have is the destructive diaspora mentally. And another problem is our unhealthy obsession with the genocide]

We are all xxxxing Armenians and regardless of where we live our homeland is Armenia, or it should be. If you don't look towards Armenia as your actual homeland, and Armenians there as your compatriots, then regardless of how well you speak the Armenian language in the diaspora you are worthless in the long run as an Armenian.

For example, I know many Armenians in USA who don't even speak Armenian. Can I generalize it on all the Armenians in USA?

I agree with you, and you can generalize like that. Most American-Armenians are forever lost. But let me ask you 'again' - What good is your Armenian language in Lebanon if you have no personal connections to the homeland? If you want to impress me, speak to me about how connected you are to your homeland, Armenia.

Hopefully one day you'll visit Lebanon and during that visit, I advise you to visit the Armenian schools and scouts.

I was born in the ghetto, Burj hamood. I spent my early childhood in Beirut. I currently live in the US. I've been back to Beirut a couple of times. To tell you the truth, Lebanon 'never' crosses my mind, unless Israel is bombing it. And, as an Armenian, I can't understand your absolute and unconditional worship of that place. Lebanese-Armenians have many-many excuses for not being close to Armenia - but their love for Lebanon is and will always be unconditional.

Garegin Njhteh is rolling over his grave watching the "proud" Armenians of Lebanon and elsewhere.

Incidentally, my criticism is not only against Lebanese Armenians. I have similar and even harsher criticisms towards American-Armenians, Turkish-Armenian and Hayastantsi Armenians. It's just that for a group of people that speak so vociferously about "Armenian pride," Lebanese-Armenians are 'complete' disappointments for me.

Please do so Mr. Armenian and let us know the numbers.

Well Mr. Krazy, from my personal observations, based on a given diaspora's 'relative ability,' proud Armenians of Lebanon are trailing behind other "less Armenian" diasporas like America, Iran, France and Russia - when it should be leading. I suggest you seriously and objectively think about this topic. In my humble yet well informed opinion, Lebanese-Armenians are way too comfortable about your Armenianness.

I prefer such discussions to happen in a different thread and not inside Hezballah thread.

No. Hezbollah is a Lebanese entity that has friendly relations with the Armenian community there. We were talking about Armenians in Muslim societies. It's a natural progression of debate.

[Armenian]

I disagree with this. That you personally think Islam will 'not make a comeback' is completely irrelevant to the way things seem to be headed. Secular societies are in decline. While people in secular societies are dabbling in their enervated passions and searching for the ideal thrills, traditional and religious societies like Arabs are breeding like rabbits making the future soldiers of a revitalizing and hungry civilization.

There is merit in what you are saying here. But this problem is not with Islam per se, it's with all third world nations. If Islamic nations were allowed to develop naturally, that is without western interference, I think they would be experiencing the same problems the West is experiencing today regarding a decline in population. Islamic peoples today are being driven towards extremes, and since they are predisposed towards aggression due to their culture and religion, they are reacting in extreme fashion as a result. Poverty and attacks for the outside breeds violence, fanaticism, backwardness and oddly enough population growth. And when you add to this mix religious fervor, you create a very volatile powder keg. Islam today is becoming a volatile powder keg. If Islam is to rise in the future it will have done so as a result of what has been happening to them during the past one hundred years.

Most people don't realize that at turn of the 20th century Islam was actually in a steep decline. And then came in the greedy western oil companies, western intelligence services, western organized assassinations, western funded dictators and monarchs, western manipulated civil wars, western funded revolutions, the western organized Islamic terrorism, the Zionist state, massacre of Muslims, invasion of Islamic nations, anti-Muslim propaganda... Another society of people would have rolled over and played dead. But due to certain inherent aspects of the tenants of Islam the opposite has taken place.

No matter how one looks at this issue, the West has created this monster.

I also disagree that it would be in the interest of Armenians living under an Islamic society as opposed to a Western secular one.

I personally would rather live in a western/secular society. But rest assured, the Armenian community will eventually die in such an environment. As the communities of Iran and Turkey have shown, Armenians living under Islamic rule tend to keep their identity somewhat. This does not mean that they will have wonderful lives.

Let's ask some Armenians about the not so pretty nature of living under the thumb of Islamic rule where you are told what status you are, how you must dress, etc. Islam is backward in that it stunts growth and intellectual progress and you want Armenians to live under an atmosphere of such ultra-conservatism? You would want Armenians to live as second class citizens in Islamic society because of their religion? To pay the jizya and make life more difficult for them? So Islamic authorities can seize churches whenever they wanted them without due process?

Although in places like Palestine and Iran not a single Armenian church has been closed by Muslims, as droves of churches in the West gets shut down due to a lack of attendance, I more-or-less agree with what you are saying here. But it's pointless to bring this up in this discussion.

As Western power is now receding, these traditional societies are beginning to show cracks and reverting back to their older ways of fanaticism.

Anywhere you find Islamic fanaticism you will find it to be a direct result of western exploitation and manipulation.

I appreciate and respect all the contributions you and many of the nationalist posters here have offered over time, but I completely disagree with this blind cheerleading of Islam. You can still state your grievances and your anti-Western and anti-Israeli persuasion without having to go from one roof to under another.

Anon, have you not read any of my comments regarding Saudi Arabia, Chechnya or Pakistan? Who the xxxx here is "cheerleading Islam." This is nothing but a figment of your imagination. Regarding my so-called cheerleading, I will continue praising Hezbollah and Iran for very valid reasons, and I will continue cheering the Palestinians against Israelis.

The rest of the Islamic world, especially the religious Sunnis who currently are or have been backed by the West, are utter garbage.

[Tigranakert]

Armenian, since Armenia was not independent they could not play a role in the lives of the Diaspora Armenians. But is it not the duty and task today of the Armenian government to attract the Diaspora? If the Diaspora is assimilating today and in the future, the blame is also on the Armenian government. How can it be that the government formed a Ministry of Diaspora in 2008 and not ten years earlier?

It is true that the Diaspora brings with her some dangers too, but do you really think our government is ''nationalistic'' and wants the best for us as a nation? Aren't the reforms who are taking place now the result of the protests, after the oligarchs got scared. As much as I dislike P-xxx-trosyan, I do not praise our president Serge Sarkisyan. Do you think the Republican Party will gradually transform into a ''nationalistic'' one from the inside?

[Anonymouse]

Anywhere you find Islamic fanaticism you will find it to be a direct result of western exploitation and manipulation.

And was it Western 'exploitation' and 'manipulation' that resulted in Islam's fanatic rise and spread in the first place?

[Armenian]

And was it Western 'exploitation' and 'manipulation' that resulted in Islam's fanatic rise and spread in the first place?

Which rise? The first one, in the middle ages? Before you answer that question, as yourself what caused the fanatic rise of Christianity in northern Europe and the new world, the Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, the Assyrian Empire, the Mongol Empire, the American Empire, the Russian Empire, Hellenism, Bolshevism, Nazism, Napoleonism, Globalism, etc... xxxx happens....

[Armenian]

Armenian, since Armenia was not independent they could not play a role in the lives of the Diaspora Armenians. But is it not the duty and task today of the Armenian government to attract the Diaspora?

Only a government that is well established, secure and very prosperous can afford to engage in extracurricular activities like that.

Right now the Armenian government's primary task is to protect the borders of the republic and create an economic environment where free trade can develop. Considering its very limited assets, and the screwed up political nature of the Caucasus, the government in Armenia is barely capable of doing this fundamental task today. Besides, such activities should be approached very carefully. Recently official Yerevan has begun to do just that, 'slowly' open up to the diaspora. However, diaspora brings with it problems as well. If diaporan Armenians were allowed to vote in Armenia's elections last year, a criminal like Levon would most probably have won the elections there last year. Let's not paint the Armenian Diaspora is fabulous colors. Armenian diasporans are a convenient vehicle upon which western and Turkish intelligence services operate. Look at the English speaking participants of websites such as ArmeniaNow and Hetq to see what I mean. While there are many well meaning diaporans there are also those who work for foreign interests, the Armenian Assembly of America is one example of what I am talking about here. And there are a xxxx load of Turkish-Armenians that work for the Turkish MIT. There are lesbo/gay rights groups, there are US government funded freedom and democracy groups, there are anti-Russian groups, there are cult groups, there are pro-Turkish groups (TARC)... You name it. There are also twisted individuals like Jirayr Sefilian stirring trouble in the homeland. Moreover, Levon had a big part of this support base in the diaspora. And there are also those in the diaspora that go to Armenia merely to get an affordable education, to purchase cheep xxxelry/gems and antiques and perhaps indulge in some sexual encounters as well.

Diaspora Armenians can be an asset as well as a liability. Thus, the diaspora has to be handled with caution.

If the Diaspora is assimilating today and in the future, the blame is also on the Armenian government.

Your complaint here is unfair and very unrealistic. It is an individual's right to decide which way he or she is headed. If for example an Armenian diaporan wants to marry an odar and assimilate do you think the "Armenian government" should send in a special forces unit to put a stop to it? Stop being silly. We don't live in a laboratory test tube where our actions as individuals are controlled by others. Every single diasporan community has the responsibility to maintain its connection to the Armenian homeland, regardless of the government.

The government in Armenia can barely keep its borders safe and it's people fed and it's going to help you maintain an Armenian identity in the diaspora???

Get real, please.

How can it be that the government formed a Ministry of Diaspora in 2008 and not ten years earlier?

Simply because there were problems of trust. Although much of the distrust has its roots in the Cold War mentalities, some is warranted. If left unchecked, diasporans could easily overwhelm the nation culturally and politically - and not necessarily for the better. Now that the government is in a strong position, now that is has about twenty years of experience at independence, it can now afford to develop such relations. I foresee this agenda getting better as the years progress.

but do you really think our government is ''nationalistic'' and wants the best for us as a nation?

To the best of their intellectual, physical and spiritual abilities - yes. The current government in Yerevan is nationalistic. There is a lot of uneducated and inexperienced sentiments amongst Armenia's politicians today but that does not mean that they don't mean well. And the quality of politicians is slowly changing for the better. Sezh Sargasyan's administration is a good example of this change for the better. I believe that Serzh Sargsyan, Robert Kochayan, Arthur Bagtasaryan, Tigran Sargsyan, Edward Nalbandian, Vazgen Manukyan, even Dodi Gago, are nationalists in their own way. There are also many young upstarts today who will be even better when the time comes for them to serve.

Aren't the reforms who are taking place now the result of the protests, after the oligarchs got scared.

No. The reform were gradually taking place before the whole xxxx blew up early last year. The violent protests of the Levonakans hurt the Armenian republic severely and sowed the seeds of discontent between Armenians in Artsakh and Armenians in Armenia. What Levonakans did was very dangerous and treacherous. The protests also almost brought a treasonous criminal like Levon into power. The protests may have sped up some reforms, but at the time is brought the Armenian nation to the brink of major disaster. As a nationalist, I wont risk disaster for the sake of fast reforms.

As much as I dislike P-xxx-trosyan, I do not praise our president Serge Sarkisyan. It is true, it takes time, but when can there be a healthy opposition who can actually win the elections, or do you think gradually the Republican Party will transform into a nationalistic one, from the inside?

Serzh Sargsayn is the best man for the job at this point in our nation's political development. To tell you the truth, we Armenians don't deserve a better politician. A nation's government is a reflection of the nation. Having said that I believe that Serzh will prove to be the best president we have yet had. And once the new generation of Armenians gradually replaces the oldfarts in politics today you will see the quality of the political establishment rise dramatically.

And on paper at least, the Republican party in Armenia is very Njhtehakan. It also has noble beginnings. All it needs now is some committed idealists to propel it forward to its potential.

As I see it, the problem in Armenian politics today is - inexperience, incompetence and Bolshevik mindsets. This will changes with time. The changes, however, have to be homegrown, in other words not imported from the West. And such changes have to be gradual. The political environment in Armenia needs evolution not revolution.

[Anonymouse]

Which rise? The first one, in the middle ages? Before you answer that question, as yourself what propelled the fanatic rise of Christianity in northern Europe, Hellenism, Bolshevism, Nazism, Mongols, the American Empire, etc...

All empires spread by force, that's not the point. The point here is Christianity in relation to Islam. Christianity was defended by the sword to stop the spread of Islam by the sword and finally succeeded in Vienna. Prior to that, the crusades were a delayed response merely to stave off the Islamic aggression which grew bolder in the 11th century. They were to defend Christians in Islamic lands, not to spread religion.

As Bertrand Russel once said, "Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam. Marx has taught that Communism is fatally predestined to come about; this produces a state of midn not unlike that of the early successors of Mahommet. Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, spiritual, concerned to win the empire of this world."

[Armenian]

All empires spread by force, that's not the point. The point here is Christianity in relation to Islam. Christianity was defended by the sword to stop the spread of Islam by the sword and finally succeeded in Vienna. Prior to that, the crusades were a delayed response merely to stave off the Islamic aggression which grew bolder in the 11th century. They were to defend Christians in Islamic lands, not to spread religion...

Please study how Christianity was spread in northern Europe and in some part of the Caucasus (hint: it was through a bloody Crusade). Also study how Christianity was spread amongst native Americans of the new world. And study how the Crusading episode in the Middle East came into being in the first place.

A little synopsis of the First Crusade:

Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus asked European powers, the Western Church, to help him fight off 'Seljuk Turks' who had succeeded in overrunning Anatolia after the Byzantines annexed the Armenian Kingdom and scattered its nobility. Alexius had 'not' asked Europeans to fight Arabs nor to liberate Jerusalem. Pope Urban took Alexius' plea as an opportunity to rally the fragmented and warring Europeans around the church banner and give them a "sacred" task. "God wills it" was the popular slogan. By some strange providence, the result was a major social movement that initially took root in the territories of modern France but soon spread like wildfire throughout Europe and eventually ended up being a bloody fiasco where not even Christian Byzantines were spared the brutality of European Christians.

At the time of the first Crusade in 1095-1097, no Christian in the so-called Holy land was being persecuted by the region's native Muslims. A generation before, a Seljuk governor, who even by Muslim accounts was a violent lunatic, had burned down the Holy Sepulcher in a fit of rage. If I recall right, the Turk in question was eventually killed by other Muslims in some confrontation. The region's new rulers, the Egyptian Fatamids, then helped the Christians of the Holy Land rebuild their sacred site and reinstate their rights. Before the Franks got to the region the natives of Holy Land, Christian and Muslim, had a common understanding. Although Byzantium often did battle with Mesopotamian and Levantine Muslims, they never persecuted the civilians of the opposition living in their lands. Byzantium had Muslim populations, Muslim administered regions had Christian populations. And these both had xxxish populations. From Spain to Persia, there was no oppression of Christian subjects by their Muslims overlords at the time the Crusades began.

The problem at the time was the newly arrived and very violent Turks of Asia Minor, who just happened to be Muslims as well.

Even with all the death and destruction the Franks brought upon all the inhabitant of the Levant, Christian xxx and Muslim, the Muslim victors were very merciful towards the region's native Christians after the Franks had been expelled.

Crusader history is one thing I know very well, Anon. I probably have every major book written on the topic.

[Anonymouse]

Please study how Christianity was spread in northern Europe (hint: it was through a bloody Crusade). Also study how Christianity was spread in the new world. And study how the Crusading episode in the Middle East came into being.

Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus asked European powers, the Western Church, to help him fight off 'Seljuk Turks' who had succeeded in overrunning Anatolia after the Byzantines annexed the Armenian Kingdom and scattered its nobility. Alexius had 'not' asked Europeans to fight Arabs nor to liberate Jerusalem. Pope Urban took Alexius' plea as an opportunity to rally the fragmented and warring Europeans around the church banner and give them a "sacred" task. "God wills it" was the popular slogan. By some strange providence, the result was a major social movement that initially took root in France but soon spread like wildfire throughout Europe and eventually ended up being a bloody fiasco where not even Christian Byzantines were spared the brutality of European Christians.

At the time of the first Crusade, no Christian in the so-called Holy land was being persecuted by the region's native Muslims. A generation before a Seljuk governor, who even by Muslim account was a violent lunatic, had burned down the Holy Sepulcher in a fit of rage. If I recall right, the Turk in question was eventually killed by other Muslims in some confrontation. The region's new rulers, the Egyptian Fatamids, then helped the Christians of the Holy Land rebuild the sacred site and reinstate their rights.

From Spain to Persia, there was no oppression of Christians subjects by their Muslims overlords at the time the Crusades began. The problem at the time was the newly arrived and very violent Turks of Asia Minor, who just happened to be Muslims as well.

Even with all the death and destruction the Franks brought upon the inhabitant of the Levant, the Muslim victors were very merciful towards the regions native Christians.

Crusader history is one thing I know very well. I probably have every single book written on the topic.

The focus of this was not how Christianity was spread. Of course Christianity was spread by violence as well in many parts. But can you truly claim that Christianity was spread more violently than Islam? That is the point. Differences are in degrees, not kinds. Your defense of Islam is an uphill battle.

And I don't know what you are aiming for divulging your knowledge of the crusades. My only point was that the crusades were launched not for any imperialistic goal of spreading religion, or booty.

Maybe you should review your history of the crusades because you ignored how in Jerusalem prior to the crusades Christians were second class and persecuted. They were crucified, executed, and of course there was the jizya. Even WikiAnswers seems to have this:

The Crusades resulted as a reaction of Muslim aggression against the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantines). The Muslims were running constant aggressive conquest campaigns on Christian lands as part of their imperialistic expansion. In 638 the Muslims conquered Jerusalem - the holy land where xxxs and Christians would pilgrimage to. The Christian pilgrims to there were persecuted by the Muslims greatly. Over 60 Christian pilgrims were crucified in one short period by the Muslims. A Muslim governor of Caesarea in the 8th Century often seized pilgrims, one large group from Iconium was seized and they were all executed as spies (except for some that chose to convert to Islam instead of facing the sword). Muslims would ransack the churches if the pilgrims didn't pay protection money. Christian iconography and crosses were banned by the Muslims so many churches were pillaged and defaced. Caliph Mansur (around the 8th Century) ordered that the hands of all Christians and xxxs be stamped with a distinctive symbol which helped them be 'humiliated' and identified for paying of the Jizzya (tax for being Christian). Converts to Christianity were executed (such as the ex-Muslim monk in 789). Churches and monasteries conquered by the Muslims were plundered and monks and clergy were often murdered such as Saint Theodosius monastery in Bethlehem. By the start of the 9th Century most Christians fled from their hometown to Christian cities such as Constantinople that were still under the Byzantines. In 937 during Easter celebrations, specifically Palm Sunday, Muslims rampaged through Jerusalem against the Christians and destroyed their churches including Church of Calvary and the Church of the Resurrection. It wasn't until the 960's (up to 200 years later) than the Christians actually reacted to this violence and persecution. Cities taken by force such as Crete, Cilicia, Cyprus, Antioch and even parts of Syria were reconquered by the Christians.

In 974 the Muslims then launched an official offensive under Sunni Caliph Abbasid against the Byzantines. The campaign of Muslims against the Christians lasted for around 30 more years until a short ceasfire while the Muslims fought against themselves. Then at the beginning of the 11th Century the Muslims again started their offensive against the Christians under Abu 'Ali al-Mansur al-Hakim and this was taken out on the average Christian. Churches were burnt, church property was seized. Over the first 10 years of the 11th Century over 30,000 churches were destroyed by the Muslim aggressors.

They even destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulcher - the traditional site marking were Christ was buried. The Caliph ordered the tomb be destroyed.

All the Christians and xxxs of Jerusalem (and other Muslim territories) were forced to wear heavy crosses and wooden calves around their neck. It wasn't until 1021 that this persecution decreased.

In 1056 hundreds of Christians were expelled from Jerusalem and European Christians were blocked from the pilgrimage to the city. On entering Jerusalem in 1077 3000 xxxs and Christians were murdered by the Muslim invaders.

Then we get to where the story you quoted began - in response to the calls for help by the Christians persecuted throughout the Middle East and former Byzantine Empire territories the Western Church sent help.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_the_original_purpose_of_the_Crusades

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) by Robert Spencer

A History of Palestine by Moshe Gil

A History of the Crusades by Steven Runciman

Paroxysms of violent persecution erupted yet again in October—November 923 C.E. according to the patriarch of Alexandria, Sa'id b. Bitriq, as well as two Muslim chroniclers [summarized by Gil]: [63]

...the Muslims attacked...in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday (26 March 937) and set fire to the southern gates of Constantine's church and to half of the exedra, whereupon the Church of the Calvary and the Church of the Resurrection collapsed...According to al—Makin and al—Maqrizi, the Church of the Resurrection and the Church of the Calvary were also robbed of their treasures...It seems at the same time the Muslims attacked in Ascalon again. According to Yahya b. Sa'id, the assault was made on 'the great church there, known by the name of Mary the Green. They destroyed it and robbed it of all its contents and then set fire to it'...The bishop of Ascalon then left for Baghdad to get permission to rebuild the church, but he did not succeed. The church was left in ruins, for the Muslims who lived in Ascalon agreed amongst themselves that they would not allow it to be built again. As to the bishop, he never returned to Ascalon and remained in Ramla until his death.


http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/05/jihad_begot_the_crusades_2.html

These were well before the first crusade, so how can you claim "no Christian in the so-called Holy land was being persecuted by the region's native Muslims." That is untrue.

[Armanen]

Not the greatest video but I think it gets the point across about Armenians needing to head back to the Homeland sooner or later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iukfnFfs-5o&feature=channel_page

[Armenian]

The focus of this was not how Christianity was spread. Of course Christianity was spread by violence as well in many parts. But can you truly claim that Christianity was spread more violently than Islam? That is the point. Differences are in degrees, not kinds...

That's the frigging point, Anon. The differences between Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, is only degree of death and destruction they have caused. Beyond that, there is no difference between the religions. And yes, historically speaking, Christianity has more blood on its hands than Islam. It's just that you living in a Christian society, or formerly Christian society, are blinded to this fact. And this statement is coming from a Christian.

My only point was that the crusades were launched not for any imperialistic goal of spreading religion, or booty.

The Crusades were launched exactly for that - "for imperialistic goal, spreading of religion and booty."

However, as usual, the peasants and young nobles were psyched up by lofty theological slogans. It's no different today, just substitute the term Christianity with the terms Democracy and Freedom...

So, in a few generations from now, another Anonymouse in a virtual debate with another Armenian, will state that the American Empire went to war against the primitive Muslims of the Middle East in defense of Democracy and Freedom and when the other Armenian disagrees, the other Anon he will post several articles from the web (if there is such a thing as a web then) that feature Muslim fanatics attacking peaceful westerns to back his claims.

I'm amazed at the degree of your stubbornness, Anon.

Maybe you should review your history of the crusades because you ignored how in Jerusalem prior to the crusades Christians were second class and persecuted. They were crucified, executed, and of course there was the jizya. Even WikiAnswers seems to have this:... These were well before the first crusade, so how can you claim "no Christian in the so-called Holy land was being persecuted by the region's native Muslims." That is untrue.

Anon, please. If you want to continue this debate with me do serious research first. I am talking about reading scholarly books written by seasoned historians and not websites with obvious agendas. You are giving me bits of selective information without historical background or context. So, in a sense, what you are doing here is silly. If you want references PM me I'll be glad to give them to you. This debate has digressed to who can have the last word. I have seen you argue just for the sake of arguing. I'm not going there with you.

So, I'm done. Have the last word.

[Anonymouse]

So because there is evidence which goes against the grain of what you're stating it must be because it is not "scholarly" enough or "serious"? This is silly, you're right. And who cares about the last word? That's not why we discuss these things.

The original point being was that there is this unchecked praise of these Islamic groups that goes on in here which is just silly in my opinion considering these people and their religion are contrary to the values we hold in esteem and we of all people should know that having lived under them.

Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., are all fine and dandy as resistance against Israeli aggression, but beyond that, I see no reason to praise them. They are fundamentally different and juxtaposed in a way that is antithetical to the interests of nationalists or those who seek hold high the virtues of a country and nation, an earthly aim, as opposed to Allah, a heavenly aim.

[skhara]

Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., are all fine and dandy as resistance against Israeli aggression, but beyond that, I see no reason to praise them.

I praise them only as that personally. Actually, I don't praise Hamas really -- I do like Hezbollah however -- could care less about their views on Allah and their social outlook. Besides, you can't really claim there is no nationalist aspect to these groups -- Hezbollah are Lebanese and are Lebanese focused -- they represent and protect the interests of Lebanese Shia's. Likewise Hamas and Palestinians.

[Tigranakert]

Armenian, I totally agree with you that the Diaspora Armenians also bring with them some dangers, ofcourse the diaspora must be handled with caution.

I did not say the Armenian government must control the lives of the Diaspora Armenians, but they can promote the Armenian heritage, culture and history by way of ''propaganda'' (telling the truth, whereas Turkey is telling lies as propaganda). Turkey and Israel (ofcourse not comparable with our budget) both have a strong connection with their Diaspora, both having a huge propaganda-information-machine. Who else but Armenia herself can attract the Diaspora Armenians? Thus I believe it is the task of the Armenian government to promote our cultural heritage, to promote repatriation (to involve in the communities of the Armenia Diaspora) and when they fail in this important aspect, the blaim is also on independent Armenia herself.

You are right, it takes time, Armenia must be stable first and must be able to feed her own citizens, but I think this can be accomplished sooner with the help of the Diaspora Armenians (and thus by attracting them).

I totally disagree that a nation's government is a reflection of the nation. A lot of government's in the world came in power through force and corruption, not by the will of the people. Armenia deserves the best politician. There are a lot of ''obvious'' things our government neglects or does wrong, I wonder if you read the articles of Dr. Armen Ayvazyan?

Can you explain to me for example, why the government still does not have a ''plan'' as regards showing the map of Armenia/Artsakh? Why does the Armenian government fail to react to the ''Khojaly suicide-massacres'' by brining the slaughter forward in Baku and Sumgait?


As I see it, the problem in Armenian politics today is - inexperience, incompetence and Bolshevik mindsets. This will changes with time. The changes, however, have to be homegrown, in other words not imported from the West. And such changes have to be gradual. The political environment in Armenia needs evolution not revolution.


Totally agree, a lot of current politicians are inexperienced. I heard Seyran Ohanyan lives in a small appartment in downtown Yerevan, I do not think ''true nationalist'' can save up tens of millions of dollars like our president Serge Sarkisyan and Robert Kocharian (tsakhadzor resort, companies, restaurants, bank), living in a villa whereas other brothers and sisters live in small boxes where they have been living in for 20 years after the Gyumri earthquake. No, a true nationalist would give all his money building new homes for our poor brothers and sisters throughout Armenia.

[KarotheGreat]

Armenian, I totally agree with you that the Diaspora Armenians also bring with them some dangers, ofcourse the diaspora must be handled with caution.

I did not say the Armenian government must control the lives of the Diaspora Armenians, but they can promote the Armenian heritage, culture and history by way of ''propaganda'' (telling the truth, whereas Turkey is telling lies as propaganda). Turkey and Israel (ofcourse not comparable with our budget) both have a strong connection with their Diaspora, both having a huge propaganda-information-machine. Who else but Armenia herself can attract the Diaspora Armenians? Thus I believe it is the task of the Armenian government to promote our cultural heritage, to promote repatriation (to involve in the communities of the Armenia Diaspora) and when they fail in this important aspect, the blaim is also on independent Armenia herself.

You are right, it takes time, Armenia must be stable first and must be able to feed her own citizens, but I think this can be accomplished sooner with the help of the Diaspora Armenians (and thus by attracting them).

I totally disagree that a nation's government is a reflection of the nation. A lot of government's in the world came in power through force and corruption, not by the will of the people. Armenia deserves the best politician. There are a lot of ''obvious'' things our government neglects or does wrong, I wonder if you read the articles of Dr. Armen Ayvazyan?

Can you explain to me for example, why the government still does not have a ''plan'' as regards showing the map of Armenia/Artsakh? Why does the Armenian government fail to react to the ''Khojaly suicide-massacres'' by brining the slaughter forward in Baku and Sumgait?


As I see it, the problem in Armenian politics today is - inexperience, incompetence and Bolshevik mindsets. This will changes with time. The changes, however, have to be homegrown, in other words not imported from the West. And such changes have to be gradual. The political environment in Armenia needs evolution not revolution.


Totally agree, a lot of current politicians are inexperienced. I heard Seyran Ohanyan lives in a small appartment in downtown Yerevan, I do not think ''true nationalist'' can save up tens of millions of dollars like our president Serge Sarkisyan and Robert Kocharian (tsakhadzor resort, companies, restaurants, bank), living in a villa whereas other brothers and sisters live in small boxes where they have been living in for 20 years after the Gyumri earthquake. No, a true nationalist would give all his money building new homes for our poor brothers and sisters throughout Armenia.

I'm a person from Gyumri and you can't use Gyumri to criticize the goverment or the people living there. you say that the rich don't do anything for the city or the people but that's very wrong. They do, the city is being rebuild step by step. And almost all of the people who have lost their home have gotten one. There are very little domics left. And most was build by the government and the rest was by the rich who wanted to help. Do you think it's cheap to build all those buildings. And why didn't you give all your money to help rebuilt he city?

[Palavra]

The focus of this was not how Christianity was spread. Of course Christianity was spread by violence as well in many parts. But can you truly claim that Christianity was spread more violently than Islam? That is the point. Differences are in degrees, not kinds. Your defense of Islam is an uphill battle.

And I don't know what you are aiming for divulging your knowledge of the crusades. My only point was that the crusades were launched not for any imperialistic goal of spreading religion, or booty.

You realy dont know what was crusades do you. It was against to all non-christians.. That is why armenian mentioned northern europea. It was not only against muslims.

Maybe you should review your history of the crusades because you ignored how in Jerusalem prior to the crusades Christians were second class and persecuted. They were crucified, executed, and of course there was the jizya. Even WikiAnswers seems to have this:

They destiny was most probably better than muslims at Europea.

Anyway, Islamic nationes never built a joint force against non-believers(Unlike christians.) and we have not "missionaries". Just think again, who is more expansionist.

It is also interesting, largest muslim nation in world, choose islam without islamic occupation.(This is also true for majority Turks.)

I am not even talking, what christians did at africa and america.

[Armenian]

I did not say the Armenian government must control the lives of the Diaspora Armenians, but they can promote the Armenian heritage, culture and history by way of ''propaganda'' (telling the truth, whereas Turkey is telling lies as propaganda). Turkey and Israel (ofcourse not comparable with our budget) both have a strong connection with their Diaspora, both having a huge propaganda-information-machine...

Enker, this is what I mean by you sounding silly. You are comparing Armenia, a tiny, resourceless, impoverished, landlocked, embattled nation in the Caucasus with Turkey and Israel?!?!?!

This is ludicrous.

Did you realize that Turkey has one of the biggest economies in the world. Turkey is Europe's China. Istanbul hosts the world's fourth largest group of 'Billionaires' - after Moscow, New York and London. The Turkish army is the second largest in Europe, second only to Russia. And don't even attempt to bring up the Zionist State in comparison to Armenia.

Damn. What is wrong with you Armenians???

Who else but Armenia herself can attract the Diaspora Armenians? Thus I believe it is the task of the Armenian government to promote our cultural heritage, to promote repatriation (to involve in the communities of the Armenia Diaspora) and when they fail in this important aspect, the blaim is also on independent Armenia herself.

Leave the government in Armenia alone and let them do their jobs. Like I said, given our resources, they will have a hard enough time protecting our borders. You, I and every other self-respecting Armenian in the diaspora has the obligation to promote Armenia to compensate for our lack of resources. We, the grass roots of the surviving diaspora, have to take it upon ourselves to promote Armenia. Figure out how you can participate in promoting Armenian interests.

I totally disagree that a nation's government is a reflection of the nation. A lot of government's in the world came in power through force and corruption, not by the will of the people. Armenia deserves the best politician. There are a lot of ''obvious'' things our government neglects or does wrong,

Generally speaking, governments are a reflection of the people they rule over. This does not apply to situations like Iraq where governmental change was brought upon by foreigners by the use of force. Take a close look at various other nations, Turkey, Russia, EU, India, USA, Britain, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and you shall see that in essence the rulers reflect the very nature and character of the people they rule over. So, yes. Our corrupt oligarchs and our ignorant politicians reflect the current state of our people's character.

I wonder if you read the articles of Dr. Armen Ayvazyan?

I know him personally. I have great respect for him. Although he engages in "constructive criticisms" (something Armenians don't want to learn) of the Armenian government, he nevertheless would love to land a position with the current government; and he considers Levon Ter Petrosian a treasonous criminal as well.

Can you explain to me for example, why the government still does not have a ''plan'' as regards showing the map of Armenia/Artsakh?

The map of Artsakh is a major global geopolitical issue, its outcome can have very serious consequences internationally. Realize that it took Russia, a nuclear superpower, close to twenty years to bring Abkhazia and South Ossetia back under its fold and its will probably take another twenty years if not more to bring Crimea back to Russia. And here we are acting big over Artsakh. If the global community really wanted to get Armenians out of Artsakh do you actually think Armenia could successfully refuse? Anyway, the Armenian government is not going to compromise serious diplomacy or/or political maneuvering just to satisfy your whims, however good intentioned they may be. It may one day come down to pulling back from some of the areas in Artsakh, maybe not. However, the final determinant will not be based on our wishes, nor will the final determination be made by you, I, or even the Armenian president. Take a close look at who and what we are in the world today. There are 'much bigger' and 'much more powerful' forces at play here. Little hint: Russia is the key to our success. As long as Moscow sees our Armenia as a strategically important ally Artsakh is not going anywhere, and it may even further increase in size. Nonetheless, we all need to hope for the best. However, I have no doubt that the current administration in Yerevan can be fully trusted to do the right thing regarding Armenia/Artsakh.

Why does the Armenian government fail to react to the ''Khojaly suicide-massacres'' by brining the slaughter forward in Baku and Sumgait?

One of the more obvious answers here is - complacency. We are the victors, we have Russia's backing, we enjoy good relations with Iran, we enjoy good relations with the EU and the US... So, in a sense, we don't care. I agree with you that the government should be more aggressive and proactive regarding these types of matters.

I heard Seyran Ohanyan lives in a small appartment in downtown Yerevan,

In my opinion, Seyran Ohanian deserves a palace. He is one of our 'very few' professional and seasoned warriors. My respects for Sargsyan to recognize this about Ohanian.

I do not think ''true nationalist'' can save up tens of millions of dollars like our president Serge Sarkisyan and Robert Kocharian (tsakhadzor resort, companies, restaurants, bank), living in a villa whereas other brothers and sisters live in small boxes where they have been living in for 20 years after the Gyumri earthquake. No, a true nationalist would give all his money building new homes for our poor brothers and sisters throughout Armenia.

Enker, you are still very young, inexperienced and naive. You still need to understand the world you live in. And I mean no offense by saying this. I was the same... You are talking about 'human' failings. The Nazis, the epitome of nationalism, were guilty of the same crimes. In relative terms, the same could be said of every single nation on earth today, including the best of the West. Men will be men, and regardless of ideology there will always be gluttony, greed, and corruption amongst rulers. Don't forget, rulers of a nation reflect the people of the nation. I have absolutely no problems with Sargsyan making millions, if not billions, due to his connections as president. If anyone should be filthy rich it should be the president.

And all those Armos in LA, Beirut or Yerevan that complain about Sargsyan/Kocharyan doing this and that - would be the first ones doing this and that if they were in power.

My advise, learn to accept/understand/deal with the corruptible nature of mankind, you'll be a much happier person for it.

And don't believe in the majority of the stupid rumors revolving about Sargsyan and Kocharyan. Armenians, as a people, love to 'gossip' and 'destructive' gossip is what they excel in.

Let's please end this conversation.

[gmd]

Armenian, you raise an important point here:

You, I and every other self-respecting Armenian in the diaspora has the obligation to promote Armenia to compensate for our lack of resources. We, the grass roots of the surviving diaspora, have to take it upon ourselves to promote Armenia. Figure out how you can participate in promoting Armenian interests.

In what ways do you believe tangible contributions can be made by Armenians worldwide? Keeping in mind the diversity of Armenians do you have more then one recommendation so that involvement can be on a wider scale and focused on multiple fronts?

[Haykakan]

I know this question was not directed at me but i would like to say that a great way we can help our country is to go there and try to be as much a part of it as we can.Most people in the diaspora havent even been to hayastan (some of the biggest self proclaimed hayrenasers).Forming bonds In our homeland with our people, our history/culture and even nature is the greatest feeling you will have. This connection will benefit both you and the people of Hayastan.

[Lernakan]

I know this question was not directed at me but i would like to say that a great way we can help our country is to go there and try to be as much a part of it as we can.Most people in the diaspora havent even been to hayastan (some of the biggest self proclaimed hayrenasers).Forming bonds In our homeland with our people, our history/culture and even nature is the greatest feeling you will have. This connection will benefit both you and the people of Hayastan.

Bravo, I fully agree with you. It's actually sad that in some cases we need to convince a diaspora "Armenian" to visit Armenia. However I do witness that more and more Armenians in my environment visit Armenia and most of them keep returning every year.

[SoyElTurco]

Turkey has one of the biggest economies in the world. Turkey is Europe's China. Istanbul hosts the world's fourth largest group of 'Billionaires' - after Moscow, New York and London. The Turkish army is the second largest in Europe, second only to Russia.

that's whats up.

[Armanen]

that's whats up.

Yeah, a paper tiger which can't come to terms with its past, hasn't been in a real war since the 1920s the only real action being against a few thousand poorly armed kurdish militia. Quite an achievement...NOT! :crying:

[SoyElTurco]

Yeah, a paper tiger which can't come to terms with its past, hasn't been in a real war since the 1920s the only real action being against a few thousand poorly armed kurdish militia. Quite an achievement...NOT! :crying:

Okay fine, you guys next.

[Armenian]

Armenian, you raise an important point here: You, I and every other self-respecting Armenian in the diaspora has the obligation to promote Armenia to compensate for our lack of resources. We, the grass roots of the surviving diaspora, have to take it upon ourselves to promote Armenia. Figure out how you can participate in promoting Armenian interests. In what ways do you believe tangible contributions can be made by Armenians worldwide? Keeping in mind the diversity of Armenians do you have more then one recommendation so that involvement can be on a wider scale and focused on multiple fronts?

You have raised a 'personal' question. Personal, in the sense that the answer to your question is dependent upon the capabilities of the individual answering it.

In my opinion, however, regardless of where an Armenian lives and who an Armenian is married to - be it Armenian, European, Middle Easterner or Asian - the primary task of an Armenian parent/parents is to raise first and foremost - Armenians. This is the 'fundamental' base from upon which the answer of your question can be derived from in the longterm. And raising Armenians essentially means raising a child that is secure with his/her identity, sees the Armenian Republic as his/her homeland and sees Armenians living there as compatriots. This is the fundamental key to solving all our problems. Each and everyone of us has an obligation, especially in the diaspora, to nurture a healthy sense of Armenianism in our offsprings. The sad reality of the matter is, however, the vast majority of the Armenian diaspora today as well as a significant portion of the Armenian population in our republic is either lost or worthless to the republic.

There are many things an individual can do to promote Armenia, use you imagination. Of the more immediate things that can be done are the following:

If wealthy, invest in the country. If entrepreneurial, start a business in the county. If professional, and financially secure, do your profession in the country. If young, and a citizen of the republic, serve in the military of the country. If a student in the diaspora, write your school thesis/paper/report on relevant Armenian topics. If a no body, try hard to become something in life.

Talk to your non-Armenian peers about your heritage and homeland. Post information on the web (discussion forums/YouTube) pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. Write articles in local Armenian papers pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. Partake in important community affairs that have to do with the Armenian Republic. Volunteer to serve within one of several organizations that carry out important cultural/social/professional services in the republic...

One can also support good Armenian organizations in the diaspora such as the ANC or the ARF. I also need to mention here that one should not support stooges in our communities that work for the US government, entities such as the Armenian Assembly and various English language news media outlets such as ArmeniaNow and Radio Liberty. Do not support or read materials produced by American based Armenian historians such as Nina Grsoian, Richard Hovanesian, Ronald Suny and director of Armenian studies at Harvard, James Russel, a Zionist xxx.

Nevertheless, and most of all, as the other members here have correctly stated, and it can't be overemphasized - we diasporans need to either move to Armenia or vacation there. At the very least, even if you don't do any of the above, I would like to see diasporan Armenians frequently visiting the Armenian republic and perhaps purchasing a home there, place where they can call home in the homeland.

It is said that there are around ten million Armenians in the world today, and many more if we take into account those assimilated during the past several generations. Just imagine. If a significant portion, not even a majority, perhaps 1/4 or 1/3 of out total population, did any of the above, Armenia would be a powerful self-sustaining/self-reliant nation. The potential is there.

And there is no need to engage in pessimistic talk about none of this coming to fruition because of this or that...

Just do 'your' part. Take it upon 'yourself' to do it and set a good example for others. You can be one of the greatest promotions/assets/tools/resources of the Armenian Republic.

Regardless of where one lives Armenia should be consider homeland

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/1516978.jpg

Վարդանանք http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hivQiSAEAC4&NR=1

This is Armenia! [Part 1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rplovmZKNYI

This is Armenia! [Part 2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECmtdhSjcFk&feature=related

Armenia (CNN commercial): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=addR8C-8qJs

Armenia on CNN (Part2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uAb0KO-RYc&feature=related

[Lucin]

I praise them only as that personally. Actually, I don't praise Hamas really -- I do like Hezbollah however -- could care less about their views on Allah and their social outlook. Besides, you can't really claim there is no nationalist aspect to these groups -- Hezbollah are Lebanese and are Lebanese focused -- they represent and protect the interests of Lebanese Shia's. Likewise Hamas and Palestinians.


Islam is not a religion to be praised. We all know more or less what the true Islam and its backward, racist teachings are about. If you don't know, then take a look at the Torah. They are quite similar.

I more or less agree with you, here. But like it or not, from a Palestinian perspective, Hamas regardless of their social outlook, regardless of their religious beliefs, should be the spokesman of any self-respecting Palestinian, for now.


Tigranakert,
The priest who was killed was an evangelist who was converting Muslims into Christianity. Apparently, he had received several warnings from the Patriarch to stop it too but fell on deaf ears...

There are just so many misconceptions and misunderstandings that I am not willing to get engaged into such discussions. It's just futile.

[hipeter924]

Hezbollah are all and all the good guys. They are only around 10,000 strong and they fought off the whole Israeli military in Lebanon. It has to be one of the worst military failures in Israeli history. People are nervous around Hezbollah, in fact 60,000 people left Lebanon because they gained more power there.

But you have to remember Lebanon is a stable democratic nation, its elections are always fair, and that Israel wanted to invade and destroy the whole Lebanese nation not just Hezbollah.

So whether or not Hezbollah committed terrible things (which it has) it largely redeemed itself from saving its own nation from Israeli domination and conquest. So I don't love Hezbollah but I do respect what they have done. ;)

[Federate]

Hezbollah are all and all the good guys. They are only around 10,000 strong and they fought off the whole Israeli military in Lebanon. It has to be one of the worst military failures in Israeli history. People are nervous around Hezbollah, in fact 60,000 people left Lebanon because they gained more power there.
No one is nervous around Hezbollah except the useless Maronite population in Lebanon who still think they hold all the cards there despite most of them fleeing on boats to Canada and Detroit while it was the Muslim quarters being bombed by the J3w.


But you have to remember Lebanon is a stable democratic nation, its elections are always fair, and that Israel wanted to invade and destroy the whole Lebanese nation not just Hezbollah.
No my friend, Lebanon can hardly be considered a "democracy". If Lebanon was a democracy, Hassan Nasrallah would be the president and the Shi'a would have majority in parliament. Check out Lebanese politics if you want more info on their unique system of governance. It was designed by the French so that the Christian population always remains in power. However, since those cowards all flee and Muslim breed fast, the minority is shrinking further more.


So whether or not Hezbollah committed terrible things (which it has)
How has it committed terrible things? Can you give me an example?

[Armenian]

So whether or not Hezbollah committed terrible things (which it has)...

Like what :confused:

[hipeter924]

Like what :confused:

The Israeli's blame them for some random massacre in South America. I don't know if that can backed up.

[hipeter924]

No my friend, Lebanon can hardly be considered a "democracy". If Lebanon was a democracy, Hassan Nasrallah would be the president and the Shi'a would have majority in parliament. Check out Lebanese politics if you want more info on their unique system of governance. It was designed by the French so that the Christian population always remains in power. However, since those cowards all flee and Muslim breed fast, the minority is shrinking further more.

Maybe but its a better democracy than Israel's. ;)

[Armenian]

The Israeli's blame them for some random massacre in South America. I don't know if that can backed up.

Israel blames them for global warming as well. What's your point?

[hipeter924]

Israel blames them for global warming as well. What's your point?

That even though they have done some alleged bad acts in the past. Hezbollah are still the good guys because of what they did in defending Lebanon against Israel. ;)

[SoyElTurco]

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7153

[Haykakan]

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7153

It amazes me that turcks have such strong feelings about the palastinian crisis yet they deny what they themeslves are guilty of.The armenian genocide was much more severe then the gaza crisis but they deny having done anything bad to us and instead blame us for it.It would be like blaming the palastinians for the suffering they just endured.Yes the isrealis are evile becaus their state is based on a racist policy(zionism) but so were the turcks when they slaughtered inoocent unarmed women and childeren in the most gruesome ways imaginable.There is no way one can support the palastinians while fighting the armenian genocide recognition and still be considered a rational or sane person.

[Palavra]

It is too different thing. Turks are not supporting Hamas because of her politics. Turks are against israel because of her politics.

Anyway, Isrealis are not evil. People who kill innocents are evil

[UrMistake]

then all turk grandfathers are evil good job.

[Haykakan]

It is too different thing. Turks are not supporting Hamas because of her politics. Turks are against israel because of her politics.

Anyway, Isrealis are not evil. People who kill innocents are evil

I am making a point that zionism is a evile notion since it is flat out racism. A state based on such a notion dooms itself from the very begining becaus its society is based on this notion and must believe a lie to exist.It really is kind of what Turkey has done since the genocide, it lies to itself and tries to hide from its own history.The act of seeing the world as you wish it to be vs for what it realy is will handicap a person or a nation in many ways.xxxs fighting against zionism and turcks who are willing to accept their own history are the people who are really trying to help their own countries but are looked upon as traders by their own ignorent masses.

[hipeter924]

I am making a point that zionism is a evile notion since it is flat out racism. A state based on such a notion dooms itself from the very begining becaus its society is based on this notion and must believe a lie to exist.It really is kind of what Turkey has done since the genocide, it lies to itself and tries to hide from its own history.The act of seeing the world as you wish it to be vs for what it realy is will handicap a person or a nation in many ways.xxxs fighting against zionism and turcks who are willing to accept their own history are the people who are really trying to help their own countries but are looked upon as traders by their own ignorent masses.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

[Palavra]

then all turk grandfathers are evil good job.

My english is bad. Yours is worse.

I am making a point that zionism is a evile notion since it is flat out racism.

Well, armenianism, turkism or every nationalist ideas have such racism. Israel or xxxs are not such special case.

A state based on such a notion dooms itself from the very begining becaus its society is based on this notion and must believe a lie to exist.

Every nation in world built their own fake history.

[Haykakan]

Palavra you are confusing pride for ones country with hate for others.A person can be proud to be armenian or russian or greek or whatever without hatered for other races.You can be a nationalist without being a racist.The point i was making is that racism is synonymous with zionism and the turkish national movement.As a matter of fact many of the zionists and turkish nationalists hate palastinians and armenians more then they like their own country.Building a fake history is exactly what turkey is doing but thats not what everyone else does. There are objective sources you can compare any official state position on history with.It is not a conspiracy when the whole world says there was a armenian genocide and turkey is the only country that says no there wasn't.Turks and xxxs are hurting themselves by wearing blinders and pretending that reality is whatever they say it is.

[Palavra]

Palavra you are confusing pride for ones country with hate for others.A person can be proud to be armenian or russian or greek or whatever without hatered for other races.You can be a nationalist without being a racist.

A thin line. Anyway, tell me If Russian, armenian or greeks hate other nations.(I just used your examples.)

The point i was making is that racism is synonymous with zionism and the turkish national movement

So you just want to make a point? Please support it with facts.

As a matter of fact many of the zionists and turkish nationalists hate palastinians and armenians more then they like their own country.

I do not think, You realy know what are you talking. Turkish nationalist does not hate palastinians. They support arabs(I cannot talk about israel but where did your knowledge comes? About Turkish nationalists, It is totally false) are you trying to make a point acording to your fantasies?

By the way, armenian hate or armenia is not important part of Turkish identity.(Unlike, Turkish hate of armenians) It is funny(If not ironic.) you accuse Turks.


Building a fake history is exactly what turkey is doing but thats not what everyone else does.

Realy? so tell me one country who interest with her own crimes. You can find absolutely none. Everycountry is right at every war.

There are objective sources you can compare any official state position on history with.

Objective sources? where are they?

is not a conspiracy when the whole world says there was a armenian genocide and turkey is the only country that says no there wasn't.

My friend even I believe There was a genocide or at least an ethnic cleansing, I am sure(more powerful word than believe.) a latin at america have no interest with armenia or turkey. Their knowledge about AG comes from armenians. They are not searching AG, They are hearing it from armenians.

It is stupid to believe we are stupid. We know, why a lot country accepted AG and It has zero relation with reality. If you realy believe it that so much country interested with justice, You are naive.(at least.)


Turks and xxxs are hurting themselves by wearing blinders and pretending that reality is whatever they say it is.

That is another point without proof. Also It is absurd to group Turks and xxxs as one.


Anyway, Noneed to destroy such a lovely "we hate xxxs" thread with "We hate turks" mentality.

[SoyElTurco]

the discussion about zionism=racism or nationalism=racism i believe belongs in the intellectual lounge. it doesnt engage the topic of the thread "Hezbollah"

[Haykakan]

Ok Pal i am starting to believe that arguing with you is pointless.Your lack of mastery over the english languadge seems to be menifesting itself in the ways u interpret what is written.This conclusion u reached is a good example (I do not think, You realy know what are you talking. Turkish nationalist does not hate palastinians. They support arabs(I cannot talk about israel but where did your knowledge comes? About Turkish nationalists, It is totally false) are you trying to make a point acording to your fantasies?).Obviously i was refering to xxxs vs palastinians and turcks vs armenians and not to anything else.However in responce to your comment of (That is another point without proof. Also It is absurd to group Turks and xxxs as one.),it is very much fair to compare what is happening in isriel with what happened in turckey. I never said xxxs and turcks are one but they are doing the same thing and are in a similar state of racism and denial of the truth.And again i am not refering to all turcks and xxxs.Here is another falacy(Realy? so tell me one country who interest with her own crimes. You can find absolutely none. Everycountry is right at every war.)USA has given indians special rights and lands, Germany has given the xxxs lotsa money. These are just a couple examples.I realy dont have time to correct every stupid mistake you make. Perhaps it would be best if you go improve your english and brush up on nonturkish sanctioned history before you try to win any arguments here.

[Federate]

I love these little games the Westerners like to play. They are establishing contact with the political wing but not the military wing... :laugh: Well no sh!t? You don't negotiate with the military wing of a political group. And it's not like the two wings have any differences...
------------------------------------------------------
UK restores links with Hezbollah
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45539000/jpg/_45539437_poster_afp226.jpg

Britain says it is re-establishing contacts with the political wing of the Lebanese movement Hezbollah.

The move follows "positive political developments" in Lebanon, officials from the UK Foreign Office said.

It comes about 10 months after Hezbollah signed a unity accord in Lebanon and joined the government.

Only last year, the government put Hezbollah's military wing on a list of proscribed organisations over its alleged training of insurgents in Iraq.

"We are exploring certain contacts at an official level with Hezbollah's political wing, including MPs," said a spokesperson for the Foreign Office.

The spokesperson said the UK was doing "all it can" to support Lebanon's unity government, of which Hezbollah's political wing is a part.

"Our objective with Hezbollah remains to encourage them to move away from violence and play a constructive, democratic and peaceful role in Lebanese politics, in line with a range of UN Security Council Resolutions."

The spokesperson said Britain would continue to have no contact with Hezbollah's military wing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7927025.stm

[Eddo211]

That is interesting news.

If I had to guess Federate I would say that this is all about weakening the Iranian Mullah’s ability to leverage Hezbollah against Israel.

[Eddo211]

I will be the first to state Israeli atrocities and brutality and the overall nature of the State of Israel. I'll also go so far as to state that Palestinians have a right to self-determination and self-defense against naked Israeli aggression.

However, I draw a line with you folks in terms of honoring Hezbollah or any of these Muslim brotherhood type deals. Let's not forget that just as Judaism and the State of Israel is intolerant toward the other, so is Islam. And Islam is not a religion of peace but very much so a religion of hierarchy, subjugation and order. And lest we forget what Islam is about we need only look at our own Armenian history to see that we were a subject peoples under Islam and were discriminated upon and treated as a second class people.

Most if not all of these Islamic based groups or Islamic fundamentalist organizations seek an Islamic society or a caliphate or some type of deal where they will impose Islam on everyone else. Their mentality and backwardness of thought is against the idea of placing the highest emphasis on culture of a people but on the culture of the religion, because Islam is an all encompassing ideology of one-worldism that reduces people under one banner of sameness.

Let's fall into the trap where we can't see the forest for the trees.

I don’t think this can be put any better.

I hope this is truly understood by Armenians. Everything is not what it is on the surface, take it from someone who has rode through it………Ha

[Federate]

Hezbollah 'found moles, foiled Israeli cell'
http://www.presstv.ir/photo/20090418/beglari20090418190348984.jpg

Hezbollah has successfully foiled an Israeli espionage operation, which saw the infiltration of spies into the movement, a daily reports.

The Lebanese newspaper al-Hayat reported that the members of a spy ring including a Lebanese officer identified as General Adib al-Alam successfully infiltrated Hezbollah, but the movement managed to find them.

Last week, the Lebanese media reported that the country's security service in cooperation with Hezbollah disbanded two espionage cells run by an operation out of Israel.

The spies are said to have used special equipment to guide Israeli warplanes during the 33-day war between Israel and Lebanon in 2006.

Adib was reportedly running one cell along with his wife and nephew and the second cell comprised of three other spies.

The Lebanese officer has confessed that he had been trained by the Israeli spy agency Mossad.

According to the al-Hayat report, Hezbollah has adopted new measures to prevent the infiltration of Israeli spies in the future.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=91826&sectionid=351020203

[Haykakan]

I dislike any group which tries to claim religious superiority or is linked to religion in any way. Having said this, if it wasn't for these guys arming themselves, Lebanon would now be another Israeli province. Isreal is a racist state in addition to being religously intollorant. The xxxish state persecutes christians and muslims in its persuit of zionism(a purely racist concept). Westerners see Israel in a better light because western media is dominated by xxxs and one should not forget this fact when forming a opinion.

[Yedtarts]

I dislike any group which tries to claim religious superiority or is linked to religion in any way. Having said this, if it wasn't for these guys arming themselves, Lebanon would now be another Israeli province. Isreal is a racist state in addition to being religously intollorant. The xxxish state persecutes christians and muslims in its persuit of zionism(a purely racist concept). Westerners see Israel in a better light because western media is dominated by xxxs and one should not forget this fact when forming a opinion.
Very well said!

[Federate]

Capture of 'spies' hits Israel

BEIRUT, Lebanon, June 25 (UPI) -- The roundup of around 40 alleged Israeli agents in Lebanon in recent weeks has in all probability been a serious blow for Israeli intelligence at a time when its longtime adversary, Hezbollah, is bracing for another onslaught by the xxxish state.

Both sides are nervous -- Israel because valuable eyes and ears inside Lebanon have been lost, Hezbollah because the existence of these cells, some of them set up 25 years ago, was an immense security failure on its part and will mean it will have to do a lot of housecleaning and reorganizing.

All this means is that two of the Middle East's most ferocious adversaries, whose intelligence war over the years has been one of the most heated in the region, have both been badly damaged and want to hit back.

The turmoil in Iran and the emergence of a hard-line, right-wing government in Israel under hawkish Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu fuel this unease and sense of vulnerability on both sides. And in the volatile Middle East, those are usually portents of trouble.

With one cell after another being rolled up, the Israelis will no doubt have told whatever other intelligence assets they may have in Lebanon to lie low. And it seems clear, given the rank of some of the Lebanese arrested in the crackdown, that the Israelis had penetrated Lebanese society and its military widely and deeply.

The alleged agents included a former general in Lebanon's premier security service, two army colonels and a former mayor. Lebanese authorities say most of those arrested, including those just listed, have all confessed that they had been spying in Lebanon for years.

Some said they were recruited by Israel's various intelligence services -- Mossad, which operates outside Israel; the Shin Bet internal security service, which operated in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories; and Aman, military intelligence -- as far back as 1982 when Israel invaded Lebanon.

In Lebanon, given Hezbollah's nationwide military structure and the danger it poses for the xxxish state, the Israelis will have to rebuild the networks smashed by Lebanese intelligence and Hezbollah's security branch to regain the intelligence flow that is vital to military operations.

This means that to an extent that can only be guessed at, the Israelis are more vulnerable regarding Hezbollah than they have been for many years.

When Hezbollah abducted Israeli soldiers on the border on July 12, 2006, Israel responded with wave after wave of airstrikes in what became a 34-day war. The Israelis were able to destroy bunkers containing most of Hezbollah's long-range rockets capable of striking deep into Israel, almost to Tel Aviv, in under an hour.

Their intelligence was that good, and some of that must have come from agents they had on the ground. Those assets may no longer be available, and the Israeli air force may not be able to strike with such devastating accuracy next time around.

Hezbollah, too, is jumpy, and with some reason. From what information is available about the alleged spies' activities, they were focused primarily on tracking Hezbollah leaders and key operatives, identifying command centers and safe houses.

Several senior Hezbollah officials who were assassinated were probably targeted by intelligence provided by the Israeli agents. At least one of these agents had secured a commercial contract with Hezbollah's administrative branch to maintain its vehicles and had planted tracking devices in them that went undetected for years.

It does not take a great stretch of the imagination to surmise how many secret facilities and key Hezbollah operatives were uncovered in what must stand as one of the most successful espionage operations mounted in many years.

It seems that the assassination of several senior Hezbollah figures likely resulted from the activities of the Israeli spy rings. Among those killed was the Shiite movement's fabled and shadowy operational chief, Imad Mughniyeh, the most wanted fugitive in the world until Osama bin Laden struck on Sept. 11, 2001.

Mughniyeh, indicted in the United States for the June 1985 hijack of a TWA jetliner in which a U.S. Navy diver was murdered, was assassinated in one of the most secure districts of Damascus, the Syrian capital, after a meeting with Syrian intelligence chiefs.

A bomb placed in the headrest of his SUV was detonated by remote control when he got into the vehicle. It was one of the most spectacular assassinations in the Middle East for years. It hit Hezbollah hard, and it has carried out no operation of any significance against Israel since then.

http://www.upi.com/Emerging_Threats/2009/06/25/Capture-of-spies-hits-Israel/UPI-66891245950455/

[Haykakan]

Zionists being executed, i want front row seats. Pass the popcorn!

[KanadaHye]

Zionists being executed, i want front row seats. Pass the popcorn!

:laugh: I wanna see heads rolling....

[hipeter924]

Zionists being executed, i want front row seats. Pass the popcorn!
I doubt they would kill them, as I am sure they could use them for political leverage or a prisoner exchange.

[KanadaHye]

Lebanon accountable for Hezbollah: Netanyahu

The Lebanese government is responsible and will be held accountable for any attacks launched on Israel by Hezbollah, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Monday.

Speaking to Israel Radio on Monday, Netanyahu said the militant group is an official part of the Lebanese government.

"It should be clear that the Lebanese government, as far as we are concerned, is responsible for every attack … launched from its territory against Israel," Netanyahu said. "It cannot hide and say 'Well, that's Hezbollah and we don't control them.'"

In Lebanon’s June election, the Hezbollah-led alliance claimed 57 seats.

Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said recently that his group has replenished its weapons stock since its 2006 war with Israel and now has more than 30,000 rockets. Hezbollah fired nearly 4,000 rockets at Israel during the 2006 conflict.

The fighting in July and August 2006 lasted 34 days and killed around 1,000 people, the majority of which were civilians in Lebanon.

Netanyahu's comments come a day after he said Israel's 2005 withdrawal from the Gaza strip was a mistake that did not bring Israel peace or security.

"To my regret, the opposite occurred, and we know that Gaza became a Hamas base under Iranian control from which thousands of missiles have been fired, including in the last campaign," Netanyahu said. "In short, this did not bring peace."

The prime minister was speaking to his cabinet, commenting on the four years since the government dismantled its settlements in the area.


http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/08/10/netanyahu-hezbollah-gaza.html

[Federate]

Israel spying devices found by UN
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46573000/jpg/_46573070_israelspybody.jpg

Israeli spying devices that were planted during the 2006 war with Hezbollah have been discovered in southern Lebanon, the UN has said.

UN peacekeepers discovered the buried devices when they were blown up by remote control by Israel on Sunday.

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora accused Israel of blatantly violating the UN Security Council resolution that led to the end of fighting.

Israel has declined to comment directly on the matter.

Mr Siniora said an Israeli plane flying above peacekeepers and Lebanese troops investigating the blasts constituted further violation of the resolution.

The incident comes at a time of increased tension between the Lebanese authorities and Israel.

Earlier in October the Israeli army released a video which it said showed Hezbollah removing munitions from the scene of an explosion near the city of Tyre.

Under the same UN Security Council resolution, there should be no weapons south of the Litani river except in the hands of regular Lebanese forces and peacekeepers.

Hezbollah subsequently broadcast its own video which it said disproved the claims.

It also says overflights by Israeli spy-planes violate the resolution.

The war between Hezbollah and Israel in 2006 lasted 33-days during which time Hezbollah fired a hail of rockets into Israel and the Israelis bombed carried out a huge bombing campaign across Lebanon and a large ground incursion.

More than 1,125 Lebanese died during the conflict, as well as 119 Israeli soldiers and 40 Israeli civilians.

Israel made little headway in ground operations and the war ended inconclusively with Hezbollah's military wing largely intact.

The UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1701 (2006) calling for the end of hostilities, the demilitarisation of the south of Lebanon and a mandate for a UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) to oversee the implementation of the resolution.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8314352.stm

[KanadaHye]

More than 1,125 Lebanese died during the conflict, as well as 119 Israeli soldiers and 40 Israeli civilians.

Israel made little headway in ground operations and the war ended inconclusively with Hezbollah's military wing largely intact.

The UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1701 (2006) calling for the end of hostilities, the demilitarisation of the south of Lebanon and a mandate for a UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) to oversee the implementation of the resolution.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8314352.stm

In other words, Israel targeted civilians instead of taking on the freedom fighters much like they did to the Palestinians in Gaza.

[Federate]

In other words, Israel targeted civilians instead of taking on the freedom fighters much like they did to the Palestinians in Gaza.
Of course, the casualties number is carefully worded to not distinguish between the Lebanese civilians and the Hezbollah soldiers while the article clearly states how many Israeli soldiers and Israeli civilians were killed specifically.

The numbers are 1,191 Lebanese civilians killed and 4,409 injured. In addition, 250 Hezbollah soldiers were killed.

[KanadaHye]

Israelis 'seize Iran arms ship'

Israel's navy has intercepted a ship carrying hundreds of tonnes of Iranian weapons intended for Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Israeli military has said.

The Antiguan-flagged vessel, Francop, was boarded 160km (100 miles) off the Israeli coast, the military said, and has been towed to the port of Ashdod.

PM Benjamin Netanyahu said the arms were intended to strike Israeli cities.

In recent months Israel has stepped up efforts to combat the smuggling of arms to both Hezbollah and Hamas militants.

Hezbollah has not yet commented on the latest incident.

Iran and Syria have both rejected Israel's allegations.

'Disguised cargo'

The Israeli military said marines had boarded the 137m (450ft) Francop after its captain agreed to the search and no force was used.

The vessel was intercepted "near Cyprus", the Israeli military said, though it gave no further details on where this took place.

The country's deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai, said the ship's crew were not thought to have been aware of the smuggling operation.

A spokesperson for the military said there were "dozens of shipping containers, carrying numerous weapons, disguised as civilian cargo among hundreds of other containers on board".

The spokesperson added: "The weapons originate from Iran and were intended to reach the Hezbollah terror organisation for use against the state of Israel and its citizens."

The Associated Press news agency reported the vessel was operated by Cyprus-based shipping company United Feeder Services and the company had said the cargo was picked up in Damietta in Egypt.

The exact route of the ship has not been confirmed but Israel's Haaretz newspaper said it originated in Iran and had docked in Yemen and Sudan before using the Suez Canal.

A United Feeder Services source told news agencies the ship was scheduled to dock in Lebanon.

The Israeli military said an Iranian document had been found on the ship.

A military spokesperson said: "All the cargo certificates are stamped at the ports of origin and this one was stamped at an Iranian port."

However, in a news conference in Tehran broadcast on Iran's state-run Press TV, visiting Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Muallem said the ship was not carrying Iranian-made weapons and that the cargo comprised Syrian exports to Iran.

Mr Netanyahu congratulated the army, navy and security forces on a successful action to prevent the supply of weapons.

Since Israel's offensive in Gaza last December and January, the Israeli navy and air force have been have conducting intense searches in the Mediterranean and the Red Sea for ships smuggling weapons either to Hezbollah or to Hamas in Gaza.

In February Israel said a vessel detained off Cyprus was carrying Iranian weapons to Hamas in Gaza. Iran denied the claim.

In 2002 the Israeli navy captured the Karin-A, which was carrying some 50 tonnes of arms thought to be destined for Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8341737.stm

[AlphaPapa]

I will be the first to state Israeli atrocities and brutality and the overall nature of the State of Israel. I'll also go so far as to state that Palestinians have a right to self-determination and self-defense against naked Israeli aggression.

However, I draw a line with you folks in terms of honoring Hezbollah or any of these Muslim brotherhood type deals. Let's not forget that just as Judaism and the State of Israel is intolerant toward the other, so is Islam. And Islam is not a religion of peace but very much so a religion of hierarchy, subjugation and order. And lest we forget what Islam is about we need only look at our own Armenian history to see that we were a subject peoples under Islam and were discriminated upon and treated as a second class people.

Most if not all of these Islamic based groups or Islamic fundamentalist organizations seek an Islamic society or a caliphate or some type of deal where they will impose Islam on everyone else. Their mentality and backwardness of thought is against the idea of placing the highest emphasis on culture of a people but on the culture of the religion, because Islam is an all encompassing ideology of one-worldism that reduces people under one banner of sameness.

Let's fall into the trap where we can't see the forest for the trees.

Amen.

[Catharsis]

Hezbollah restored dignity to Lebanon in particular and Arabs in general from almost constant bullying by the Israelis. Too bad so many of the Arab (often brutal) regimes do not support them calling them terrorists (when the former rules through autocratic and repressive means), but the general Arab public admires their unequal yet heroic fight against Israeli incursion.

[AlphaPapa]

Of course Arab states call them terrorists. They're actually resisting zionism and making them look stupid.

[ArmSurvival]

Hezbollah restored dignity to Lebanon in particular and Arabs in general from almost constant bullying by the Israelis. Too bad so many of the Arab (often brutal) regimes do not support them calling them terrorists (when the former rules through autocratic and repressive means), but the general Arab public admires their unequal yet heroic fight against Israeli incursion.

Yes, most gentiles were happy when Israel was defeated, regardless of political or religious sympathies. Even though my father (a Lebanese citizen) is totally opposed to Hezb when it comes to their politics and agenda, he has nothing but good things to say about the ass-whipping they handed to Israeli soldiers.

The 2006 war was the first time an Arab army (or any army) stopped the Israeli army in its tracks. There is a lot of misinformation about Hezb only excelling at guerilla warfare. In the few head-to-head engagements between Hezb and the IDF, Hezb made them retreat due to their superior tactics.

[Catharsis]

Yes, most gentiles were happy when Israel was defeated, regardless of political or religious sympathies. Even though my father (a Lebanese citizen) is totally opposed to Hezb when it comes to their politics and agenda, he has nothing but good things to say about the ass-whipping they handed to Israeli soldiers.

The 2006 war was the first time an Arab army (or any army) stopped the Israeli army in its tracks. There is a lot of misinformation about Hezb only excelling at guerilla warfare. In the few head-to-head engagements between Hezb and the IDF, Hezb made them retreat due to their superior tactics.

Indeed, I don't agree with Hezbollah's Muslim fundamentalism, but they were the only force that did save Lebanon from another humiliation and even possible occupation. They also do not impose their fundamentalism on other forces within the country, which is again much more tolerant than Israel will ever be.

[KanadaHye]

Indeed, I don't agree with Hezbollah's Muslim fundamentalism, but they were the only force that did save Lebanon from another humiliation and even possible occupation. They also do not impose their fundamentalism on other forces within the country, which is again much more tolerant than Israel will ever be.

Hezbollah's fundamentalism stems off from knowing the fundamentalism of the Israeli government.

[Catharsis]

Hezbollah's fundamentalism stems off from knowing the fundamentalism of the Israeli government.

Yes, very well put, since it has turned into a survival mechanism for the resistance there, absolutely.

[Federate]

Indeed, I don't agree with Hezbollah's Muslim fundamentalism, but they were the only force that did save Lebanon from another humiliation and even possible occupation. They also do not impose their fundamentalism on other forces within the country, which is again much more tolerant than Israel will ever be.
Agreed. Hezbollah's Islamic fundamentalism is exaggerated anyway. It may have started with such an aim but I would place Hezbollah as more nationalist than Islamic fundamentalist these days. Support for Hezbollah is no longer solely Shi'a-based; many Christians support it now. I have even heard of unconfirmed reports that Christians are allowed to serve in it as well. Of course, this does not mean that it is not true to its roots but it seems like establishing an Islamic regime in Lebanon has been postponed indefinitely.

[Catharsis]

Agreed. Hezbollah's Islamic fundamentalism is exaggerated anyway. It may have started with such an aim but I would place Hezbollah as more nationalist than Islamic fundamentalist these days. Support for Hezbollah is no longer solely Shi'a-based; many Christians support it now. I have even heard of unconfirmed reports that Christians are allowed to serve in it as well. Of course, this does not mean that it is not true to its roots but it seems like establishing an Islamic regime in Lebanon has been postponed indefinitely.

Yes Federate and that was very smart of Hezbollah since they were able to transform their popular victory into a broader force that became national and important for all of Lebanon. This was the an important move when they overcame their own particular creed and sought a common consensus in defending and rebuilding the nation. This is also why they remain popular along with their peaceful activities in reaching out to the poor and war stricken segments of the population.

[KanadaHye]

Hezbollah denies link to arms shipment

The Lebanese militant group Hezbollah issued a brief statement Thursday denying that a shipment of weapons seized by Israeli naval commandos was meant for it.

Israeli officials boarded a ship in waters off Cyprus Wednesday and discovered that the cargo included hundreds of crates of mortars, munitions, anti-tank weapons and rockets.

Israel said the shipment was meant for Hezbollah, which fought a month-long war with Israel three years ago.

But Israel offered no evidence to support the claim the shipment was meant for Hezbollah — and Hezbollah denied any link to the shipment.

In a statement faxed to The Associated Press, Hezbollah said it "categorically denies" any connection to the weapons. The statement also said Israel's actions amounted to "piracy."

Containers had Iranian shipping codes
Containers taken from the ship, the Francop, had Iranian shipping codes in English. "IRISL" was marked on one side and "I.R. Iranian Shipping Lines Group" on the other. The Israeli military said it found a document on the ship that showed the shipment originated from Iran, but officials didn't show the paper to the media.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Thursday that he hopes the capture of the weapons will be a "wake-up call to those few in the international community who up until now have still held illusions about the true character of the extremist, radical regime in Tehran." Iran had no comment on the seizure.

The seizure spotlighted tensions between Israel and Iran. Israel has said it considers Iran a strategic threat because of its nuclear program and long-range missile development.

Wednesday's seizure was bigger than a similar haul in 2002, when the Israeli military confiscated a vessel with 50 tonnes of missiles, mortars, rifles and ammunition headed for Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip. Israel has said it believes that shipment came from Iran as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/11/05/israel-hezbollah-arms.html
_____________________________________


Sounds like a false flag operation by Israel.... and what authority do they have over the waters off the coast of Cyprus? They are itching to start something again.

[ArmSurvival]

Indeed, I don't agree with Hezbollah's Muslim fundamentalism, but they were the only force that did save Lebanon from another humiliation and even possible occupation. They also do not impose their fundamentalism on other forces within the country, which is again much more tolerant than Israel will ever be.

Hezb is not just much more tolerant than Israel, but more tolerant than other factions within Lebanon itself. In fact, they are the only faction in Lebanon that has never fired a single shot toward a Christian. The western-backed Sunni faction has been continuously putting Christians down, and various Christian sects have even attacked each other. Hezb's hands are clean in this regard.

And lots of people (even my dad) accuse Hezb of wanting to "Islamicize" Lebanon. I had an experience in Lebanon that changed my view 180-degrees. We were in the center of Beirut, a liberal area which is mostly Sunni, and were sitting at one of the many outdoor restaurants/cafes. My cousin's husband asked for a beer, and the waiter told him that he couldn't serve him beer because it was Ramadan. Yes, the Sunnis in Beirut were forcing everyone, including Christians, to comply with Ramadan traditions, as if it was an Islamic republic. And less than a mile from where we were sitting they had built the biggest mosque in Lebanon, overshadowing an Armenian church that had been there for decades. And Hezb gets accused of having an Islamic agenda by the western-backed Sunnis...

And there's more. When these western-backed Sunnis, most notably the Hariris (who are Saudis, but are considered Lebanese somehow...) were conducting building projects in Beirut at the end of the civil war, they kicked thousands of people out of their homes in order to make space for their building projects. Fair enough, it happens in lots of countries. There were two problems though: The compensation was so little, that according to my cousin's husband, it wasn't even enough to pay to move their stuff to another location, let alone to pay for a new residence. The second problem is they did this to thousands of Lebanese citizens, and the building complexes they built are so up-scale and expensive that only rich Saudis and Gulf Arabs can afford to live there. In essence they cleansed part of Beirut of Lebanese citizens and replaced them with fellow Saudi and Gulf Muslims, in the name of "rebuilding Lebanon".

Contrast the story I just told you with what Hezb did after the 2006 war: Any Lebanese who lost their home in the bombardment simply had to show Hezb that their home was damaged or destroyed, and Hezb compensated each family over $5,000 USD, a large sum of money in Lebanon.

So those Armenians who are not familiar with Lebanese internal politics, and are dumbfounded as to how ARF and Armenians in general are supporting Hezb, now you have a better idea.

[Anoush]

Hezb is not just much more tolerant than Israel, but more tolerant than other factions within Lebanon itself. In fact, they are the only faction in Lebanon that has never fired a single shot toward a Christian. The western-backed Sunni faction has been continuously putting Christians down, and various Christian sects have even attacked each other. Hezb's hands are clean in this regard.

And lots of people (even my dad) accuse Hezb of wanting to "Islamicize" Lebanon. I had an experience in Lebanon that changed my view 180-degrees. We were in the center of Beirut, a liberal area which is mostly Sunni, and were sitting at one of the many outdoor restaurants/cafes. My cousin's husband asked for a beer, and the waiter told him that he couldn't serve him beer because it was Ramadan. Yes, the Sunnis in Beirut were forcing everyone, including Christians, to comply with Ramadan traditions, as if it was an Islamic republic. And less than a mile from where we were sitting they had built the biggest mosque in Lebanon, overshadowing an Armenian church that had been there for decades. And Hezb gets accused of having an Islamic agenda by the western-backed Sunnis...

And there's more. When these western-backed Sunnis, most notably the Hariris (who are Saudis, but are considered Lebanese somehow...) were conducting building projects in Beirut at the end of the civil war, they kicked thousands of people out of their homes in order to make space for their building projects. Fair enough, it happens in lots of countries. There were two problems though: The compensation was so little, that according to my cousin's husband, it wasn't even enough to pay to move their stuff to another location, let alone to pay for a new residence. The second problem is they did this to thousands of Lebanese citizens, and the building complexes they built are so up-scale and expensive that only rich Saudis and Gulf Arabs can afford to live there. In essence they cleansed part of Beirut of Lebanese citizens and replaced them with fellow Saudi and Gulf Muslims, in the name of "rebuilding Lebanon".

Contrast the story I just told you with what Hezb did after the 2006 war: Any Lebanese who lost their home in the bombardment simply had to show Hezb that their home was damaged or destroyed, and Hezb compensated each family over $5,000 USD, a large sum of money in Lebanon.

So those Armenians who are not familiar with Lebanese internal politics, and are dumbfounded as to how ARF and Armenians in general are supporting Hezb, now you have a better idea.

Thank you ArmSurvival, I had no idea about sunnis. Please do tell, are all Persians/Iranians sunnis or mostly sunnis? Now I see why the ARF officials have respect towards Hezbollah.

[Armanen]

Thank you ArmSurvival, I had no idea about sunnis. Please do tell, are all Persians/Iranians sunnis or mostly sunnis? Now I see why the ARF officials have respect towards Hezbollah.

Iranians are shiites, as are Hezbollah. Over 60% of Iraq's population is shia too. The azeri's are also shia. Sunni islam though accounts for nearly 90% of the worlds muslim population.

[Catharsis]

Thanks for the info ArmSurvival and the recollection of personal experiences is also quite telling.

[Eddo211]

I will take a Shiite over a Sunni any day, even though I have had many confrontations (some really ugly ones) with anti Armenian sentiments from Shiites in Iran.
I do know however that most educated middle class Persians are Iranians first, Muslims second and most are very good with Armenians. One of my best friends is an Iranian.

[KanadaHye]

I will take a Shiite over a Sunni any day, even though I have had many confrontations (some really ugly ones) with anti Armenian sentiments from Shiites in Iran.
I do know however that most educated middle class Persians are Iranians first, Muslims second and most are very good with Armenians. One of my best friends is an Iranian.

Turks are Sunni, Iraq is Sunni/Shia and Iran is Shia. If it wasn't for the Sunni/Shia divide, the middle east would be a solid rock.

[Armanen]

Turks are Sunni, Iraq is Sunni/Shia and Iran is Shia. If it wasn't for the Sunni/Shia divide, the middle east would be a solid rock.


Not so sure about that. There is still the arbitary borders of the middle eastern countries, and no leader of any of those nations will want to give up their power to a neighboring leader. If religion isn't the issue there will always be other factors for people and countries to fight over, it is human nature.

[Armanen]

I will take a Shiite over a Sunni any day, even though I have had many confrontations (some really ugly ones) with anti Armenian sentiments from Shiites in Iran.
I do know however that most educated middle class Persians are Iranians first, Muslims second and most are very good with Armenians. One of my best friends is an Iranian.


I'm curious what the arguments were about. Do you mind telling us?

[KanadaHye]

Not so sure about that. There is still the arbitary borders of the middle eastern countries, and no leader of any of those nations will want to give up their power to a neighboring leader. If religion isn't the issue there will always be other factors for people and countries to fight over, it is human nature.

I find it odd that after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the borders were neatly drawn along "religious" lines. There are historical reasons for the divisions, perhaps deeply rooted in the politics of the past but if Muslims united regardless of their branch, they would be a force to reckon with. Unity among people will always be stronger than any government. The reason governments have so much power is because of divisions among the people. Obviously the Arab/Muslim governments supporting Israel aren't doing so for the good of the citizens in the region but rather because those in the government benefit from doing so. Israel wants control over Lebanon and if it weren't for Hezbollah and company, Lebanon would be conveniently ransacked by big brother Israel.

[Armanen]

I find it odd that after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the borders were neatly drawn along "religious" lines. There are historical reasons for the divisions, perhaps deeply rooted in the politics of the past but if Muslims united regardless of their branch, they would be a force to reckon with. Unity among people will always be stronger than any government. The reason governments have so much power is because of divisions among the people. Obviously the Arab/Muslim governments supporting Israel aren't doing so for the good of the citizens in the region but rather because those in the government benefit from doing so. Israel wants control over Lebanon and if it weren't for Hezbollah and company, Lebanon would be conveniently ransacked by big brother Israel.


I'm sure you know who 'drew' the boundaries of the current Arab countries and they did the same in Africa and east Asia to a lesser extent. The arab governments which support israel do it purely for politcal and economic reasons, after all, egypt does get more funding than israel from the u.s. but that is basically to keep the peace and ensure continued egyptian cooperation with u.s./israeli aims in the region. It has been stated by many, but one of the leading reasons why the muslim world, and arabs in particular, dislike the united states is because of the double standard, the u.s. always advocates democracy but doesn't hesitate to support un-elected, and unpopular governments. At least with the other powers vying for influence in the region, i.e. Russia & China, they don't get involved with internal affairs publicly and as long as their said interests are taken care of, they could care less who runs the government(s).

Another region that would be a force to reckon with if united would be Latin America, but that is just as unlikely as the Middle east being truly united.

[Eddo211]

I'm curious what the arguments were about. Do you mind telling us?

Discriminations, segregations, insults, ridicules……….these things were more prevalent at school level.

Examples are:
Being called a dirty Armenian or Armenian dog.
Pointing to yellow ants on the ground (compared to the numerous black ones), calling them Armenians and then stomping on them. Hahaha, that set me off like crazy maniac.
Getting ganged up on.
Getting pulled out of class because they were going to talk to the other students about something that we Armenians were not allowed to hear.
Teachers beating us up more than others and for no good reasons at all.
Being told to get out, this not your country. You know……….normal stuff.

As we grew older these things settled down and most cases we were all Iranians in their eyes. Armenians in military were honored properly.
But really with all this said, I would rather be in Iran than any other Muslim country, even with them freaking Mullahs in charge.


KanadaHye: The biggest conflict between Sunnis and Shiites will be Iran Vs Saudi Arabia...........this is what is about regardless of businesses between the two. It is the old Arab Vs Persian deal which can never heal.

[Federate]

Not to mention the fact that not only is Hassan Nasrallah from Bourj Hammoud but his childhood friends were all Armenian and he is reportedly fluent in the language :)

[KanadaHye]

Not to mention the fact that not only is Hassan Nasrallah from Bourj Hammoud but his childhood friends were all Armenian and he is reportedly fluent in the language :)

So I wonder if Ahmadinejad's reported Armenian ancestry is true as well...

"Ahmadinejad was born near Garmsar in the village of Aradan, in Semnan province, the fourth of seven children. His father, Ahmad, was an ironworker, grocer, barber, blacksmith, and religious Shi'a who taught the Qur'an. His mother, Khanom, was a Seyyede, an honorific title given to those believed to be direct bloodline descendants of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Ahmadinejad's father changed his name from "Sabourjian" or "Sabaghian" when Ahmadinejad was four years old to avoid discrimination when the family moved to Tehran as the rural name inferred a lowly social standing. Sabor is Farsi for thread painter, a once common occupation within the Semnan carpet industry. Ahmadinejad was chosen as it means from the race of Ahmad, one of the names given to Muhammad."

[Anoush]

Դուք բաւականին լաւ գիտէք կոր Միւսիլմաններուն ողն ու ծուծը. ես հիմակ այս բոլորը ձեզմէ սորվեցայ, մէրսի:

Thank you people for the above enlightenment of the so-called muslim world.

[ArmSurvival]

So I wonder if Ahmadinejad's reported Armenian ancestry is true as well...

Actually it was reported that he is J ewish. Supposedly Sabourjian is a common name among Iranian J ews. It makes a bit of sense when you think about it--- His face looks very J ewish to me (hard to describe what that means, you just have to be familiar with J ews). Also, all the tough talk towards Israel can be seen as trying to compensate for his own J ewish roots. Similar to how some closet homosexuals are publicly opposed to homosexuality.

Some Iranians will tell you that he is a secret agent for Mossad, sent to infiltrate the Iranian leadership in order to alienate Iran from the western world. Even some members of Hezb and the Lebanese government have been accused of being Mossad agents and are on trial. And crypto-J ews have infiltrated societies with many masks (Young Turks, Bolsheviks, etc). But who knows. It might be true, or it could all just be hearsay. Some experts on Iranian J ews have said he has no J ewish roots, and that his father was a religious Shia. The whole J ewish connection was reported by the Daily Telegraph, so you can never be sure if its just misinformation.

[Lucin]

Discriminations, segregations, insults, ridicules……….these things were more prevalent at school level.

Examples are:
Being called a dirty Armenian or Armenian dog.
Pointing to yellow ants on the ground (compared to the numerous black ones), calling them Armenians and then stomping on them. Hahaha, that set me off like crazy maniac.
Getting ganged up on.
Getting pulled out of class because they were going to talk to the other students about something that we Armenians were not allowed to hear.
Teachers beating us up more than others and for no good reasons at all.
Being told to get out, this not your country. You know……….normal stuff.

As we grew older these things settled down and most cases we were all Iranians in their eyes. Armenians in military were honored properly.
But really with all this said, I would rather be in Iran than any other Muslim country, even with them freaking Mullahs in charge.



Horrible. Never experienced such a thing. But was this before the revolution or after it?


Actually it was reported that he is J ewish. Supposedly Sabourjian is a common name among Iranian J ews. It makes a bit of sense when you think about it--- His face looks very J ewish to me (hard to describe what that means, you just have to be familiar with J ews). Also, all the tough talk towards Israel can be seen as trying to compensate for his own J ewish roots. Similar to how some closet homosexuals are publicly opposed to homosexuality.

Some Iranians will tell you that he is a secret agent for Mossad, sent to infiltrate the Iranian leadership in order to alienate Iran from the western world. Even some members of Hezb and the Lebanese government have been accused of being Mossad agents and are on trial. And crypto-J ews have infiltrated societies with many masks (Young Turks, Bolsheviks, etc). But who knows. It might be true, or it could all just be hearsay. Some experts on Iranian J ews have said he has no J ewish roots, and that his father was a religious Shia. The whole J ewish connection was reported by the Daily Telegraph, so you can never be sure if its just misinformation.

It sounds a bit laughable to me, talking about Ahmadinejad's J'ewish roots. I think there are some important factors which discard such claims. The place where he was born, Semnan, is just Persian. J'ews are non-existent there, they have been concentrated in other regions more, like Hamedan or Tehran or... Secondly, Sabourjian may be 'common' among the Iranian J'ews but it is an Iranian name in the first place and so more common among the Iranians. And then more importantly, he has rised from a poor background, you think you can find a 'middle-class' J'ew (let alone poor) in Iran? :)

Oh and incidently I was watching a report lately on the Daily Telegraph where it indicated that its editor in chief is a Zionist. No surprise though but all this can make better sense I guess.

[Federate]

Sabourjian from Wiki

Controversy

An article in the Daily Telegraph on 3 October 2009 stated that the name derives from weaver of the Sabour, and that sabour was the Persian name for the Tallit. The article also quoted an unnamed 'London based expert on Iranian xxxry' who stated that the jian ending denoted a family of practising xxxs. [2]

A contrary article in The Guardian on 5 October 2009 contained quotes from Professor David Yeroushalmi, author of The xxxs of Iran in the 19th century. Professor Yeroushalmi stated:

There is no such meaning for the word 'sabour' in any of the Persian xxxish dialects, nor does it mean xxxish prayer shawl in Persian.[1]

Professor Yeroushalmi also denied that the jian ending to a name denoted a family of practising xxxs. He further stated:

This ending is in no way sufficient to judge whether someone has a xxxish background. Many Muslim surnames have the same ending.

[Muhaha]

Bwhahaha. Alpha.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Israel Cuts Off Arms Shipment To Hezbollah



Jerusalem – Israeli naval forces, led by Israel's elite Naval Commando Unit, stormed the Francop cargo ship before dawn on Wednesday and, after searching its containers, found large quantities of weapons and ammunition on board.

This cargo, earmarked for Hezbollah, originated in Iran. The seized weaponry was hidden inside containers, which supposedly were filled with goods.

A senior Israeli government official said, "Our work now is to show the world what Israel has to deal with. The photographs of arms and ammunition will prove that Israel is defending itself against fierce terrorism, and you don't fight terror with silk gloves. What country would allow terrorist groups to arm themselves in a way that endangers the lives of the citizens in its heartland?"

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu chose to frame the issue somewhat differently and said, "Anyone who still needed proof that Iran continues to send arms to terrorist organizations received it today, clearly and unequivocally. Iran is sending these arms to terrorist groups in order to strike at Israeli cities and kill civilians. The time has come for the international community to apply real pressure to Iran to stop this criminal activity and give support to Israel when it defends itself against terrorists and their patrons."

Meanwhile, a senior Israeli military source predicted Iran would attempt to find other ways to supply Hezbollah with weapons. He said Iran had settled on a maritime strategy after having confronted difficulty when smuggling over land. The source stressed the seizure of the arms ship was proof that Iran was continuing to invest great energy in smuggling munitions despite the restrictions placed on it. He said it was quite possible Iran had in the past made use of civilian commercial vessels as a cover to supply weapons to various destinations.


Continue - http://thebulletin.us/articles/2009/11/06/news/world/doc4af4dde4533b4301176815.txt


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[Parskahay]

iran is lending support to all of muslim countrys in some way hidden or any other way.
zionists are the most hated in world arent they?
and i can ensure you that iran supporting Hezbollah as best as it can even if i hate it...
the politics in iran at the moment are temporary and will end soon the Green wave of mousavi(dont know if you heard you can google it)
those dominant none-belivers took control over the iran and now will do anything to keep on they are not even muslims they are xxxxers who only think about their terrorism goals

[Armanen]

iran is lending support to all of muslim countrys in some way hidden or any other way.
zionists are the most hated in world arent they?
and i can ensure you that iran supporting Hezbollah as best as it can even if i hate it...
the politics in iran at the moment are temporary and will end soon the Green wave of mousavi(dont know if you heard you can google it)
those dominant none-belivers took control over the iran and now will do anything to keep on they are not even muslims they are xxxxers who only think about their terrorism goals


So you do not like the current leadership of Iran?

[KanadaHye]

iran is lending support to all of muslim countrys in some way hidden or any other way.
zionists are the most hated in world arent they?
and i can ensure you that iran supporting Hezbollah as best as it can even if i hate it...
the politics in iran at the moment are temporary and will end soon the Green wave of mousavi(dont know if you heard you can google it)
those dominant none-belivers took control over the iran and now will do anything to keep on they are not even muslims they are xxxxers who only think about their terrorism goals

Zionists and Neo-Conservatives are the most hated for those who have a clue about the atrocities that go on in the world in even such relatively unreported places such as Haiti.

So you do not like the current leadership of Iran?

I couldn't quite understand what he meant either... I'm not sure if he likes Iran's leadership and doesn't like Hezbollah or he doesn't care much for either.

[ArmSurvival]

It sounds a bit laughable to me, talking about Ahmadinejad's J'ewish roots. I think there are some important factors which discard such claims. The place where he was born, Semnan, is just Persian. J'ews are non-existent there, they have been concentrated in other regions more, like Hamedan or Tehran or... Secondly, Sabourjian may be 'common' among the Iranian J'ews but it is an Iranian name in the first place and so more common among the Iranians. And then more importantly, he has rised from a poor background, you think you can find a 'middle-class' J'ew (let alone poor) in Iran?

Thanks for your input... what you say makes sense.


Oh and incidently I was watching a report lately on the Daily Telegraph where it indicated that its editor in chief is a Zionist. No surprise though but all this can make better sense I guess.

Well that seals the deal :laugh:

[hipeter924]

If I said I didn't like Iran I would have to admit I didn't like most of the middle east either because whether its Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran whatever there are plenty of Islamic Law driven nations. ;)

[KanadaHye]

Hezbollah dismisses Obama pledges


The leader of Lebanon's mainly Shia movement Hezbollah says US President Barack Obama's promise to engage with Muslims has proved to be false.

Hassan Nasrallah said the US had shown its commitment to Israel by sending more military aid and backtracking on demands to stop West Bank settlements.

He said the Arab world could not depend on the US to solve its problems because the US was causing them.

In June, Mr Obama called for a "new beginning" between the US and Muslims.

Correspondents say that Mr Nasrallah's remarks were his strongest criticism yet of the US president.

'Dignity disregarded'

"A few months ago, when Barack Obama was elected as US president and a new American administration saw light, many had high hopes and believed that major changes will happen in favour of the Arab and Islamic world," said Mr Nasrallah, quoted by Hezbollah's al-Manar TV.

"However, the truth was quickly revealed and all these illusions quickly failed. The result was obviously a full US commitment to Israel's interest and security, disregarding the dignity and feelings of the Arab and Muslim people and governments."

He added: "We tell all those who asked us to give the Americans some time… it turned out that presenting a black president from the third world was a trick that ended faster than we expected."

Mr Nasrallah was speaking on Hezbollah's Martyrs' Day.

Earlier this week, the head of Israel's military said that Hezbollah now has rockets capable of reaching Israel's largest cities.

Maj Gen Gabi Ashkenazi's warning came days after Israel's navy seized a ship it said was carrying hundreds of tonnes of weapons destined for Hezbollah.

Israel and Hezbollah fought a war in 2006 during which more than 1,200 Lebanese, mostly civilians, were killed. Some 160 Israelis, most of whom were soldiers, also died.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8356052.stm

[Muhaha]

Well that's one promise I'm glad he didn't keep.

[Armanen]

Well that's one promise I'm glad he didn't keep.


Why do you say that?

[Muhaha]

Why do you say that?

What is there to engage or negotiate? The goals of Hezbollah or like minded Organizations are to see a weaker or even vanished State of Israel. Why should that happen?

[Armanen]

What is there to engage or negotiate? The goals of Hezbollah or like minded Organizations are to see a weaker or even vanished State of Israel. Why should that happen?


Well to be honest I wouldn't care if israel didn't exist anymore, but I don't think that is realistic. What I would like to see more though is a two state solution where Palestinians can live in their rightful lands and israelis in theirs. I would like to see an end to the racist policies of the israeli government as well. They are not much better than formerly apartiad South Africa.

You should also look into the pro-azeri/turkish policies that israel has carried out in the past decades. They have been no help to Armenia or Armenians.

[Federate]

Syria has reportedly delivered Fateh 110 missiles to Hezbollah

http://www.voltairenet.org/local/cache-vignettes/L370xH232/arton164075-d8134.jpg

Syria reportedly delivered to Hezbollah mobile surface-to-surface Fateh-110 missiles capable of reaching every Israeli city, according to DEBKAfile, an Israeli website.

Quoting Israeli military and security sources, the website further reports that the missile weighs three tons with a half-ton precision-guided warhead and a range of 250 kilometers.

Armed with a solid-fuel propellant, the missile is capable of firing at speed with little advance preparation.

According to the same website, Tel Aviv was expecting Damascus to deliver anti-aircraft missiles to Hezbollah but not this type of arms, which constitute a real danger. Fired from mobile launchers, the missiles cannot be detected by Israeli planes.

Quoting Israeli sources, DEKBAfile reported that the Fateh-110 missile issue was at the heart of discussions between Syrian President Bachar Assad and US Middle East envoy George Mitchell, as well as with Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos. Mitchell and Moratinos alledgedly relayed to Damascus an Israeli warning that if Hezbollah ventured to fire the Fateh-110, Israel was determined to hit back at strategic and military targets inside Syria.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article164075.html

[ArmSurvival]

If the capability of those missles are true, then thats a great deterrant to keep Israel from coming back to Lebanon.

[Federate]

If the capability of those missles are true, then thats a great deterrant to keep Israel from coming back to Lebanon.
The Fateh-110's range is approximately 250 km according to Wikipedia which would put cities as far away as Ashdod (near the Gaza Strip) within Hezbollah's range if you calculate that Hezbollah fires one from Beirut. If Hezbollah fires from Southern Lebanon (which it will), it can reach any city in Israel, like the article said.

[Sassun]

For what it's worth, Israeli jets have been buzzing our skies all night long today... they are flying very low... they usually fly around in South Lebanon, and it's not too often that they fly over Beirut, at least not at such a low altitude. I think they are just trying to intimidate. Which says quite a bit about how frustrated they must be. Still, one must not stop taking seriously Israeli leaders' loss of touch with reality..... Israel is an aggressive state by its very nature, and so it makes sense to expect that war may break out any minute even without the need for any excuse. There's been a lot of talk of war lately, even though Sayyed Nasrallah's words were aimed at increasing Hizbullah's deterrence and making Israel think a 1,000 times before launching another adventure... I don't know.. the next war will be huge and I do think it will happen -- it's only a matter of time... Israel will not accept Iranian scientific advancements, Hizbullah's strengthening of its capabilities, etc.