Economy / Population

[HyeJinx1984]

There's two things people complain the most about when it comes to Arnenian... the Economy and the fact that the population is constantly decreasing as people leave.

My question is, if all off a sudden every diasporan Armenian in the world suddenly went back to Armenian (thus solving the population problem) would the economy get better or worse? The obvious answer is "worse" because if it can't sustain the small number it has now, how will it be able to sustain millions and millions of people?

However, if there is an increase in population there must be an increase in work to sustain these people. More homes owuld need to be built, more super markets and stores put in place to feed people. If there was more people around, there would be more work to do... so would a population increase help or hinder the country?

[pixie]

the thing i complain about when it comes to armenia, is the PEOPLE.

such twats.

[Genuine_Stud]

The problem is the lack of jobs in Armenia. I doubt that if most Armenians in the world went back to Armenia that the situations would get better.

Like you said, they would need MORE jobs, markets, home security, etc.

The blockade that Turkey has put on us has really made Armenia into a poor country. If they life the blockades, things will improve a little more in regards to importing/exporting of products and services thus making the economy work.

Until then, I think that if most Armenians made investments into Armenia in regards to building new programs to assist the people the welfare of the people there, and more business to provide jobs for the Armenians there, that that might make things better.

[HyeJinx1984]

The reason I bring it up is because most people complain about how the population is decreasing, and I was wondering if an increase would really make any difference.

[Anonymouse]

There's two things people complain the most about when it comes to Arnenian... the Economy and the fact that the population is constantly decreasing as people leave.

My question is, if all off a sudden every diasporan Armenian in the world suddenly went back to Armenian (thus solving the population problem) would the economy get better or worse? The obvious answer is "worse" because if it can't sustain the small number it has now, how will it be able to sustain millions and millions of people?

However, if there is an increase in population there must be an increase in work to sustain these people. More homes owuld need to be built, more super markets and stores put in place to feed people. If there was more people around, there would be more work to do... so would a population increase help or hinder the country?

One of the fallacies that the economy cannot sustain a population growth is refuted by the capitalist revolution in Europe in which it broke the Malthusian cycle of the feudal ages and since then the population has been increasing.

[Hayq]

Don't blame turkey, it is purely Armenia's fault. If the Armenian government were to aid the people and let them freely conductbusiness, there would be no problem.

Armenians seem to be weak inside, they go wherever they can make money instead of building it themselves. That is what we have to change. Change the whole mentality and turn Armenian Pride from a bumper sticker into a nation.

[Genuine_Stud]

Don't blame turkey, it is purely Armenia's fault. If the Armenian government were to aid the people and let them freely conductbusiness, there would be no problem.

Armenians seem to be weak inside, they go wherever they can make money instead of building it themselves. That is what we have to change. Change the whole mentality and turn Armenian Pride from a bumper sticker into a nation.

Purely Armenia's fault?

I don't think so..... with Turkey's blockade, Armenia is losing about $750 million dollars anually without a good import/export system.

Without the right amount of income from the outside world, how can the economy get any better? The government itself is suffering so who do you think the money is going to first when income arrives to the country?

I think the Armenian people over there are pretty hungry to rebuild their country and are willing to do it.... they're not weak, because I've seen them first hand. Without the right amount of funding from the government, it is kind of hard to build it themselves. In order to get the right amount of funding, the government has to make its share, and in order for the government to make its share, the blockades have to be lifted.

One thing is "always" connected to another.

[Hayq]

Well, dig yourself out. If Armenians were smart enough, they would not have ruined relations with Azerbaijan and had peace early in 88. If Armenians care about "trade" more than they do about their own personal well being, they would not have elected such a leader who cares more about turning Armenia into a Las Vegas rip off than a modern European city.

Armenians are never satisfied with what they have. They live in Communism and have a good life, but they hate communism. They live in Capitolism and live a good life, but they hate capitolism. That is why, the solution to Armenia's problem is a dictator that will crush the Armenian spirit, that will brainwash Armenian youth into learning, respecting the law, respecting elders, and carring the torch. It should be a government that cares to protect Armenia from military and social dangers.

Do not tell me Armenia is losing 750mln dollars, what the hell are they going to do that is going to bring 750mln dollars? Armenia has factories that are decades ahead of Turkey and Iran, but instead of harnessing our potential, we chose to go backwards and turn Yerevan into a tourist town.

To Fix Armenia is to FIX the Armenian people. Regime change begins at home.

[Genuine_Stud]

Well, dig yourself out. If Armenians were smart enough, they would not have ruined relations with Azerbaijan and had peace early in 88. If Armenians care about "trade" more than they do about their own personal well being, they would not have elected such a leader who cares more about turning Armenia into a Las Vegas rip off than a modern European city.

Armenians are never satisfied with what they have. They live in Communism and have a good life, but they hate communism. They live in Capitolism and live a good life, but they hate capitolism. That is why, the solution to Armenia's problem is a dictator that will crush the Armenian spirit, that will brainwash Armenian youth into learning, respecting the law, respecting elders, and carring the torch. It should be a government that cares to protect Armenia from military and social dangers.

Do not tell me Armenia is losing 750mln dollars, what the hell are they going to do that is going to bring 750mln dollars? Armenia has factories that are decades ahead of Turkey and Iran, but instead of harnessing our potential, we chose to go backwards and turn Yerevan into a tourist town.

To Fix Armenia is to FIX the Armenian people. Regime change begins at home.

Armenian's weren't the ones who ruined relations with Azeri's. Azeri's started a scuffle in Azerbaijian with Armenians which sparked the Kharabagh war.

Other than that, you want Armenia to be under a dictatorship where any day you're family can get killed off and you wouldn't know about it? Gee, yea... that's the solution right there. Be under a dictatorship and go even BACKWARDS based on one person's view. Wouldn't that kinda be what you're accusing the current president of now?

What do you mean what are Armenians going to do that is going to generate $750 million? Armenians ARE losing about $750 million dollars yearly and it IS from the blockades whether you want to believe it or not. You know how much money importing / exporting would bring to Armenia. But because Armenia is isolated from the outside world in regards to that business and the only way items go in and out are through Georgia (where nearly 1/2 of the items get stolen anyway) Armenia is kinda in a welfare state.

On another note, have you been to Armenia lately and seen the development going on there? Or are you purely talking out of what you see from the "outside world"? Have you learned your Armenian history through colleges or universities? Or are you going off what your elders tell you? It makes a big difference you know.

[Hayq]

LMFAO! I just came back after a one month vacation from there. I HATED IT!

It is a tourist town, hotels and condos, they are not for the people living there. It is pathetic, with all that money used they could reopen many of those factories and prevent people from leaving. Thank you for opening your big mouth and accusing me of not knowing what is going on.

Apparently you yourself have not been there, or probably nowhere further from the town square. I lived with my grandparents and their life is hard. No one in Armenia besides the filth who runs it lives well. Armenia is very corrupt.

Karabagh war was started by Russia, just like the Abkhazia thing in Georgia, so Russia can hold power in that area. Armenians and Azeris were not bad with one another. I would like any Armenian here, to tell me that Armenians and Azeris were enemies EVEN DURING the Soviet Times...They were not.

Had we been mature about this and talked over the situation in Karabagh instead of going in there like an idiot losing all those men, we might have had an economy today. We would have recieved Oil from Azerbajian and unrestricted access in Georgian trade.

You guys talk about trade and war, do you realize that you can not have both at the same time? There is no trade during wartime. After the fall of communism we were supposed to have gotten support from the Disapora and lifted ourself up!

However, Armenian politics get in the way, and the Dashnaks try to stick their noses into Armenian politics. Political upheavel, war with azerbajian, decreasing population, an ECONOMY BASED ON TOURISM!!!!

IF there is a war, the Armenian economy will collapse the second a shot is fired, because no one vacations in a country at war! Therefore, a war with azerbajian means Armenia is dead. There is nothing more to it...

The dictator has to be like hitler, who sweeps the nation of its filthy prostitutes and idiot majority. It has to concentrate on Education and the Economy. Education for our children who will run the Economy of tommorow...

[Tres Bien]

Stop beeing so negative because it won't change anything even if you go and shout to the world how much you hated it.
It still is our homeland, and Armenia is much bigger than yerevan, jan.

[HyeJinx1984]

LMFAO! I just came back after a one month vacation from there. I HATED IT!

It is a tourist town, hotels and condos, they are not for the people living there. It is pathetic, with all that money used they could reopen many of those factories and prevent people from leaving. Thank you for opening your big mouth and accusing me of not knowing what is going on.

Apparently you yourself have not been there, or probably nowhere further from the town square. I lived with my grandparents and their life is hard. No one in Armenia besides the filth who runs it lives well. Armenia is very corrupt.

Karabagh war was started by Russia, just like the Abkhazia thing in Georgia, so Russia can hold power in that area. Armenians and Azeris were not bad with one another. I would like any Armenian here, to tell me that Armenians and Azeris were enemies EVEN DURING the Soviet Times...They were not.

Had we been mature about this and talked over the situation in Karabagh instead of going in there like an idiot losing all those men, we might have had an economy today. We would have recieved Oil from Azerbajian and unrestricted access in Georgian trade.

You guys talk about trade and war, do you realize that you can not have both at the same time? There is no trade during wartime. After the fall of communism we were supposed to have gotten support from the Disapora and lifted ourself up!

However, Armenian politics get in the way, and the Dashnaks try to stick their noses into Armenian politics. Political upheavel, war with azerbajian, decreasing population, an ECONOMY BASED ON TOURISM!!!!

IF there is a war, the Armenian economy will collapse the second a shot is fired, because no one vacations in a country at war! Therefore, a war with azerbajian means Armenia is dead. There is nothing more to it...

The dictator has to be like hitler, who sweeps the nation of its filthy prostitutes and idiot majority. It has to concentrate on Education and the Economy. Education for our children who will run the Economy of tommorow...


Good, and scary, points.

[Genuine_Stud]

LMFAO! I just came back after a one month vacation from there. I HATED IT!

It is a tourist town, hotels and condos, they are not for the people living there. It is pathetic, with all that money used they could reopen many of those factories and prevent people from leaving. Thank you for opening your big mouth and accusing me of not knowing what is going on.

Apparently you yourself have not been there, or probably nowhere further from the town square. I lived with my grandparents and their life is hard. No one in Armenia besides the filth who runs it lives well. Armenia is very corrupt.

Karabagh war was started by Russia, just like the Abkhazia thing in Georgia, so Russia can hold power in that area. Armenians and Azeris were not bad with one another. I would like any Armenian here, to tell me that Armenians and Azeris were enemies EVEN DURING the Soviet Times...They were not.

Had we been mature about this and talked over the situation in Karabagh instead of going in there like an idiot losing all those men, we might have had an economy today. We would have recieved Oil from Azerbajian and unrestricted access in Georgian trade.

You guys talk about trade and war, do you realize that you can not have both at the same time? There is no trade during wartime. After the fall of communism we were supposed to have gotten support from the Disapora and lifted ourself up!

However, Armenian politics get in the way, and the Dashnaks try to stick their noses into Armenian politics. Political upheavel, war with azerbajian, decreasing population, an ECONOMY BASED ON TOURISM!!!!

IF there is a war, the Armenian economy will collapse the second a shot is fired, because no one vacations in a country at war! Therefore, a war with azerbajian means Armenia is dead. There is nothing more to it...

The dictator has to be like hitler, who sweeps the nation of its filthy prostitutes and idiot majority. It has to concentrate on Education and the Economy. Education for our children who will run the Economy of tommorow...

Ok... let's get this straight. I did not accuse you of anything or at least thats not what my intentions were...I was simply asking you questions about where your views have come from. I just wanted to know if you had been to Armenia. I was merely asking, not accusing.

Now at the issue at hand.....

How can you open up your mind to find a solution to a problem when you HATE the problem in itself? "You came back after a one month vacation and HATED IT" It took you a month to realize this? If you hated it so much why didn't you leave instead of staying there and continuing to HATE what you saw and form opinions about the country based on "your" observations with hatred?

I came back from Armenia about a month ago myself. I not only went past the town square, but into Kharabagh itself. Had you not HATED the country so much, you would've realized and noticed that Kirk Krikorian had donated enough money to open up about 129 new schools. Additionally, the hotels you saw being built were from Kirk Krikorian's money... NOT THE GOVERNMENT and the people building these new hotels are the people living in Yerevan, hence creating new construction jobs.

If the Kharabagh conflict was started by Russia.... enlighten me. I should like to know how so, because I heard otherwise from a college course I had taken based on Armenian history and let the people here be the judge of that.

I do agree with you, you can't have trade and war at the same time and I also agree with you that Armenian political party involvement after the Kharabagh war did not help out either.

And AGAIN... you say you want a dictator. Fine.... let's see you try and live in that country when the dictator takes over. You saw how many people have gotten killed in Iraq over Saddam's regime over the many years. Probably even many murders and rapes by his regime that we don't even know about. Is that how you want Armenia to turn up? You want our people to get secretly murdered and raped?

I guess no matter what I say, it's not going to change your views....maybe it will... maybe it won't... I don't know. But I certainly don't have the time and energy anymore to argue over something like this over the internet, because it's not worth it.

Rather than having issues like this divide us Armenians from each other or cause more "HATE" as you've put it earlier.... I'm going to end my part here, extend my hand to you and say welcome to the forums.

[HyeJinx1984]

Ok... let's get this straight. I did not accuse you of anything or at least thats not what my intentions were...I was simply asking you questions about where your views have come from. I just wanted to know if you had been to Armenia. I was merely asking, not accusing.

Now at the issue at hand.....

How can you open up your mind to find a solution to a problem when you HATE the problem in itself? "You came back after a one month vacation and HATED IT" It took you a month to realize this? If you hated it so much why didn't you leave instead of staying there and continuing to HATE what you saw and form opinions about the country based on "your" observations with hatred?

I came back from Armenia about a month ago myself. I not only went past the town square, but into Kharabagh itself. Had you not HATED the country so much, you would've realized and noticed that Kirk Krikorian had donated enough money to open up about 129 new schools. Additionally, the hotels you saw being built were from Kirk Krikorian's money... NOT THE GOVERNMENT and the people building these new hotels are the people living in Yerevan, hence creating new construction jobs.

If the Kharabagh conflict was started by Russia.... enlighten me. I should like to know how so, because I heard otherwise from a college course I had taken based on Armenian history and let the people here be the judge of that.

I do agree with you, you can't have trade and war at the same time and I also agree with you that Armenian political party involvement after the Kharabagh war did not help out either.

And AGAIN... you say you want a dictator. Fine.... let's see you try and live in that country when the dictator takes over. You saw how many people have gotten killed in Iraq over Saddam's regime over the many years. Probably even many murders and rapes by his regime that we don't even know about. Is that how you want Armenia to turn up? You want our people to get secretly murdered and raped?

I guess no matter what I say, it's not going to change your views....maybe it will... maybe it won't... I don't know. But I certainly don't have the time and energy anymore to argue over something like this over the internet, because it's not worth it.

Rather than having issues like this divide us Armenians from each other or cause more "HATE" as you've put it earlier.... I'm going to end my part here, extend my hand to you and say welcome to the forums.

Good, and scary, points.

[Hayq]

My views come from seeing cafes built into parks and monuments. My views come from wandering throughout the city, on foot and bus, and it was bad. Yerevan is a cespool. We need to change that.

I can honestly say that the villages are SOOO Much lovelier than the cities. Ijevan really caught my attention, and if anything, I am hoping to own a house there and Yerevan...

C'mon, the first step to victory is being able to accept defeat. Find your weak points, and work on them, until we are a well oiled machine.

[HyeJinx1984]

good, and scary, points.

[Genuine_Stud]

My views come from seeing cafes built into parks and monuments. My views come from wandering throughout the city, on foot and bus, and it was bad. Yerevan is a cespool. We need to change that.

I can honestly say that the villages are SOOO Much lovelier than the cities. Ijevan really caught my attention, and if anything, I am hoping to own a house there and Yerevan...

C'mon, the first step to victory is being able to accept defeat. Find your weak points, and work on them, until we are a well oiled machine.


Yea.... I pretty much did the same as you did. I was in Armenia for a good three weeks and it was my second time going. I had gone back in 1997 and I actually saw a big change when I went this year. I guess I saw the country more optimistically, yet understood the pestimism of the people, but hamozvadzeyee that it's getting better. At least that's my opinion on it.

In regards to what you said in the last paragraph, I don't know if what you said referred to me.

If it didn't, let's just carry on.

If it did, again...let's just carry on. Haves chga khorotsadz zrootsela internetee vren.

I think that I made some strong points whether you accept them or not and it's not really a matter of winning the argument... but rather understanding each other's point of view... hence why I don't accept a "defeat".

Like I said before.... my part ended with what I had said in my previous post. If you want to discuss these topics further with someone.... I suggest you discuss it with the users "Virgil" or "Armenian" because they actually sit down and take the time to discuss things like this very throughly (in contrast to me where I don't have time nor have the energy to want to do it).

I'm sure you'll get pretty enlightened on what they have to say. :)

[Hayq]

alright...well I suppose I will have to wait for their response.

And yes, i was directing the last paragraph to you.

[Virgil]

Like I said before.... my part ended with what I had said in my previous post. If you want to discuss these topics further with someone.... I suggest you discuss it with the users "Virgil" or "Armenian" because they actually sit down and take the time to discuss things like this very throughly (in contrast to me where I don't have time nor have the energy to want to do it).

Sorry, I do not have time myself, which is why if you noticed I only post in certain threads. The only reason I posted here was because a member dragged me into the thread or else I really don't like posting on message boards.

[MadHandle]

My views come from seeing cafes built into parks and monuments. My views come from wandering throughout the city, on foot and bus, and it was bad. Yerevan is a cespool. We need to change that.

I can honestly say that the villages are SOOO Much lovelier than the cities. Ijevan really caught my attention, and if anything, I am hoping to own a house there and Yerevan...

C'mon, the first step to victory is being able to accept defeat. Find your weak points, and work on them, until we are a well oiled machine.

The cafes in the parks are privatly owned...the government has nothing to do with it. When you don't have a "real job" you make your own job, thats how it is in Armenia. My dad was an economist there and right after the independence of Armenia he quit his job and left to do those "privetly" operated buinesses(selling tooth paste, etc...) in Georgia, Russia, you name it...You see cafes all over the place cause people don't want/need their specialty. Hell even doctors get paid 50-100$ a month...which is barely good for a months worth of food. The reasons for the cafes you see can go on and on and the government can't do anything about it...they can't even do anything about themselves. They were in so much dept that they had to lease the national airport...

Genuine stud was sayin it changed since 97...I really wanna see that. I haven't been there since I was living there in 98. So I wanna see first hand this "growth".

And hayq...how the hell can you say you "hated" it. I can't wait to go there next year(I know I say this every year...but still). :D

[Hayq]

Actually, "privatization" is the biggest BS in Armenian propaganda. These "businessmen" are no more than the cronies in the parliment. Aproximately 10 people hold all of Armenia's wealth in their hands.

[MadHandle]

Aproximately 10 people hold all of Armenia's wealth in their hands.

I can agree with you on something...

The people who control the gas, electricity, etc...are all hoggin up Armenia's money flow. When you went to Armenia, did you ever visit "kanaker"? Its another city connected to Yerevan, well this guy who owns the gas flow to Armenia just built this HUGE mantion on a hill there. There is no way you can miss it since its so damn BIG, I heard it kinda looks like one of the building in the British Parliament. Anyway...is a high maintenance house like that really necessary to Armenia? The hotel onwer at Vegas is atleast doing some good...what is an Armenian billionair do? Builds a huse ass mantion!

[Hayq]

Kanaker?...hmm...I bet you are talking about Abovyan, and yes, "Dodi" Gago owns the joint. It looks more like a mosque, a mosque with a church built into it.

Pathetic...really...

The problem with the Armenian government is that the people who run it know that they are not going to last long, therefore they try to steal as much as possible so they can land safely on their fat arse when they get kicked out.

[MadHandle]

Kanaker?...hmm...I bet you are talking about Abovyan, and yes, "Dodi" Gago owns the joint. It looks more like a mosque, a mosque with a church built into it.

Pathetic...really...

The problem with the Armenian government is that the people who run it know that they are not going to last long, therefore they try to steal as much as possible so they can land safely on their fat arse when they get kicked out.

Its before Abovyan, its right at that big bus station in "radiomasht" (I think...) and there is noticable 16 floor builing on the way to there. Thats where kanaker is.

Yeah...they do steal as much as they can, but this one seems to own the whole thing. Is it really that big? I didn't even know it looked like a church, I just heard it was big and really fansy.

[Hayq]

the really fancy one (rococo style) is owned by someone else...the one around there looks like a mosque, it just has a churhc INISIDE it.

[obi]

One of the fallacies that the economy cannot sustain a population growth is refuted by the capitalist revolution in Europe in which it broke the Malthusian cycle of the feudal ages and since then the population has been increasing.


Rev. Thomas Malthus 'principles of population' were hardly adhered to in England. It was about the time we were rubbishing the latter part of Darwins work relating to cranial features, skin colour and deviant minds...

That was why i opened a topic on Poverty and solutions. We date back to 1832 for our first Poor Laws. They were set out so any parish that had people that could not work to feed themselves, it was the responsibility of the parish members to do so.

But then all of a sudden we had the industrial revolution and bang... Workhouses, nothing more than prisons for those that could not help themselves.

The reason your population is declining is because there is no work, or help for the poor... After only a week of thought I have the following ideas for you.

!)Draw up a treaty with the azers/turkey/iran & georgia. Actually, no... Draw the treaty up with the UN. Tell them of your plight, 40% poverty etc. Tell them shoulid either of the 4 afore mentioned armies attack you, you will need their protection. Dismantle your army, with an agreement by all 4 that they will not attack. Give the azers Kharabagh... it is full with armenians, what good is it to them.? Do not argue, make sure the lands you have now are marked out. For the Turks, they can see increased revenue from the blockade being lifted. Again, they have to agree to none violent conduct. For Iran, you have the 20 years of gas you have signed for... Set about caring for your poor, and building your economy... When the unemployed have work, it means your economy is booming. From Mount Ararat alone your stable, safe country should make 1 billion$ from tourists. People will see this, it is your gold, oil, trust me... from that christians across the world will flock to if it is safe land. Were it on American land it would have huge ad boads on now.!!! You just do noy market it right.While your country is so unstable, nobody will insure holiday makers. In honesty, I can't wait to get there... The old headstrong problems you have with other countries around you.. forget them, leave them to an higher punishment.

I saw someone mention tourism being your bread and butter here... Hooooooooooooooooraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.... You seen the light,, so get on
...

[IAmMadAtAC]

Draw up a treaty with the azers/turkey/iran & georgia. Actually, no... Draw the treaty up with the UN. Tell them of your plight, 40% poverty etc. Tell them shoulid either of the 4 afore mentioned armies attack you, you will need their protection. Dismantle your army, with an agreement by all 4 that they will not attack. Give the azers Kharabagh... it is full with armenians, what good is it to them.? Do not argue, make sure the lands you have now are marked out. For the Turks, they can see increased revenue from the blockade being lifted. Again, they have to agree to none violent conduct. For Iran, you have the 20 years of gas you have signed for... Set about caring for your poor, and building your economy... When the unemployed have work, it means your economy is booming. From Mount Ararat alone your stable, safe country should make 1 billion$ from tourists. People will see this, it is your gold, oil, trust me... from that christians across the world will flock to if it is safe land. Were it on American land it would have huge ad boads on now.!!! You just do noy market it right.While your country is so unstable, nobody will insure holiday makers. In honesty, I can't wait to get there... The old headstrong problems you have with other countries around you.. forget them, leave them to an higher punishment.

WHAT?? I really can't understand 95% of this gibberish...
OK, so make a treaty with the UN to come to our aid if any of our four neighbors attack us? And in the process dismantle our army, the only thing keeping us safe??? First of all there is little threat from our neighbors, Turkey wouldn't dare attack us, it would obliterate their EU chances in one second. And even if they do lose the EU thing, it'd show to the world what a bully they are. Also we have Russian border guards, which I assume could translate to the Russians helping us if Turkey ever attacked. Georgia is in disarray and is trying to improve relations with Armenians, namely getting Javakh region back into its orbit. Attacking the homeland of the Armenians would probably only assure another breakaway movement for Georgia of Javakh wanting to return to Armenia, because who would want to be a part of a country that attacks your homeland? Iran, why the hell would it attack us? Seriously, there is absolutely no conceivable reason. So they can make good with the Azeris? No! Armenia is Iran's best friend in the region, and they have a distrust of Azeris. They are only now trying to improve relations because the US wants to start an attack of Iran from Azerbaijan. And Iran said if that happened they would attack Azerbaijan back, starting a war between the two and the US. Why would they want to lose its ally in the region, Armenia, by attacking it for absolutely no reason. Last, we have Azerbaijan. The only country in the region which has a reason to attack us. They know if they do attack us though they will lose horribly, that is, unless we completely dismantle our army and leave no protection! Why should we leave our protection up to the UN, what would we get out of that except a clear invitation to the Azeris to attack us? UN troops have better things to do than to get caught up in such a war, and why should we trust an outside organization? I have seen at this board many times people saying don't trust anyone, we can only trust oureselves. We have trusted others throughout our history and your plan is a clear invitation to get screwed by the outside world again.
Also, you seem to say that by dismantling our army, countries will swap various stuff with us? Well for Turkey to maybe take down the blockade AFTER we cede Karabakh (why?!?!? It's ours!) we'd have to drop the genocide recognition as well, and we are certainly not willing to do this. Even if the Armenian government stopped the diaspora wouldn't. And what is this about getting oil from Iran if we do it? They are already building a pipeline, and we will start getting it after that, there is no precondition of getting oil only after we dismantle our army, so there is no reason to do it. You don't seem to know we have good relations with Iran. You don't seem to mention any benefits from Georgia if we follow your plan, because of course there are none. And you also act as if Mt. Ararat is ours... how did you single-handedly get us that back for no reason? The region will still be volitile because of Kurds, and its not like people from all over the world flock to any mountain, let along Mt. Ararat. It would only attract mountain climbers, and no not even in America do they make super tourist attractions out of mountains. At least not ones as big as Ararat.

[Hayq]

THe Army is going nowhere. The Military stays as long as Turkey, Azeristan, and Georgia have theirs.

[CatWoman]

After only a week of thought I have the following ideas for you.

!)Draw up a treaty with the azers/turkey/iran & georgia. Actually, no... Draw the treaty up with the UN. Tell them of your plight, 40% poverty etc. Tell them shoulid either of the 4 afore mentioned armies attack you, you will need their protection. Dismantle your army, with an agreement by all 4 that they will not attack. Give the azers Kharabagh... it is full with armenians, what good is it to them.? Do not argue, make sure the lands you have now are marked out. For the Turks, they can see increased revenue from the blockade being lifted. Again, they have to agree to none violent conduct. For Iran, you have the 20 years of gas you have signed for... Set about caring for your poor, and building your economy... When the unemployed have work, it means your economy is booming. From Mount Ararat alone your stable, safe country should make 1 billion$ from tourists. People will see this, it is your gold, oil, trust me... from that christians across the world will flock to if it is safe land. Were it on American land it would have huge ad boads on now.!!! You just do noy market it right.While your country is so unstable, nobody will insure holiday makers. In honesty, I can't wait to get there... The old headstrong problems you have with other countries around you.. forget them, leave them to an higher punishment.

I saw someone mention tourism being your bread and butter here... Hooooooooooooooooraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.... You seen the light,, so get on
...


Haha… after only a week of thought huh? That was the cutest thing I’ve ever read, lol… and what makes you think you’re the first one whose come up with those marvelous ideas? hehe

I really appreciate you showing interest in our country and wanting to help, really. But there are some things you aren’t aware of. Iran, Georgia, and Turkey will never attack Armenia. Iran has always had good relations with Armenia. The gas pipeline you mentioned will be completed in 2008. Also, most of Iran’s Northwestern population are Azeri turks and there is a danger of them wanting to be united with Azerbaijan, therefore when it comes to Karabakh, Iran would rather have it stay with Armenians. So Iran is not a threat at all, Azerbaijan is actually jealous of Iran-Armenian relations.
When it comes to Georgia, even though Gamsakhurdia sparked separatism toward Armenians, the new president is working to improve its relations with Armenians living in Georgia and Armenia. We might not have perfect relations with Georgia, but they're definitely not a threat.
Turkey won’t attack Armenia either (at least not anytime soon), for obvious reasons.

You said we should give Karabakh back to Azeris??!! But its ours! It was connected to Armenia in ancient times, then it fell under the Arab rule. Soviets returned it to Armenia but then again Stalin gave it to Azerbaijan as an autonomous region. So in conclusion: it’s ours :D . Besides all of its population is Armenian and those Muslims harassed them all along. Azeris persecuted Armenians living in Karabakh for over 70 years to drive them out. Just like they did with another ancient Armenian territory Nakhichevan. Besides, even if we return Karabakh, Turkey will still keep its borders closed because of Genocide recognition being on Armenia’s agenda. Don’t tell me we should drop that as well. Also, when has anyone ever returned a piece of land to Armenia? NEVER. They've only taken from us. Now that we’ve gained something that belongs to us, we should hand it back to them? Pshhh…whatever.
So basically if it’s gonna cost us Karabakh and genocide recognition to have the two bastards end their blockade, we’re better off now.


Building a strong economy is essential, I agree. You mentioned tourism, and that’s a great idea. Believe it or not, they’re working on it. Read this (http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2004/12/D2BA8CB5-38C4-459E-8B7A-7774B305FE0A.ASP). We also need more investors and industries in Armenia to boost our economy. Honestly, the thing that concerns me the most it the high rate of emigration and low rate of fertility. Now that's scary!

[xBaron Dants]

Obi, I think you might need more than a week of thought.

[IAmMadAtAC]

Just in case obi thinks Karabakh is our fault and needs to be returned, which I think he does, I'm just making sure he iis aware that it has always been Armenian. It was given to Azerbaijan, like Nakhichevan, by Stalin who drew up the country boundaries within the USSR in a "divide-and-conquer" fashion. He wanted to seperate ethnic groups, for example dividing up Armenians between Georgia, Azer, and Armenia instead of putting all Armenian areas under Armenian control so he could stay in power over them. He perfectly knew that the Armenians would eventually come into conflict with the Azeris over Karabakh, he gave it to Azerbaijan so that he would be able to step in and save the day and leave Armenia and Azerbaijan relying on him to solve it. That didn't end up happening under his time, but eventually the conflict did come. It's only been Azerbaijan's (in name only) for the past 70 years and its because an evil dictator decided it to be so. So if you want to respect Stalin and his ways by all means give it back to Azerbaijan. Also if you don't believe what I said about Stalin and his divide and conquer method of dealing with Armenians, I ran it by an ivy league (UPenn) history professor who gave a talk on Stalin at my college. He said indeed it was all true about Stalin giving NK to the Azeris and elaborated about the stuff I said above. He was odar and not related to Armenians in any way. So this is not just some kind of Armenian propaganda used to back up our claims, Karabakh truly is ours.

[TigranJamharian]

Just in case obi thinks Karabakh is our fault and needs to be returned, which I think he does, I'm just making sure he iis aware that it has always been Armenian. It was given to Azerbaijan, like Nakhichevan, by Stalin who drew up the country boundaries within the USSR in a "divide-and-conquer" fashion. He wanted to seperate ethnic groups, for example dividing up Armenians between Georgia, Azer, and Armenia instead of putting all Armenian areas under Armenian control so he could stay in power over them. He perfectly knew that the Armenians would eventually come into conflict with the Azeris over Karabakh, he gave it to Azerbaijan so that he would be able to step in and save the day and leave Armenia and Azerbaijan relying on him to solve it. That didn't end up happening under his time, but eventually the conflict did come. It's only been Azerbaijan's (in name only) for the past 70 years and its because an evil dictator decided it to be so. So if you want to respect Stalin and his ways by all means give it back to Azerbaijan. Also if you don't believe what I said about Stalin and his divide and conquer method of dealing with Armenians, I ran it by an ivy league (UPenn) history professor who gave a talk on Stalin at my college. He said indeed it was all true about Stalin giving NK to the Azeris and elaborated about the stuff I said above. He was odar and not related to Armenians in any way. So this is not just some kind of Armenian propaganda used to back up our claims, Karabakh truly is ours.

THIS IS GETTING RIDICULOUS!!!
its like everytime i read your posts i feel like im reading my own, we think so damn alike and its like u bring up the same things i would if i was in the same argument.
Im interested in what type of a person you are. male/female? age? lol

[IAmMadAtAC]

THIS IS GETTING RIDICULOUS!!!
its like everytime i read your posts i feel like im reading my own, we think so damn alike and its like u bring up the same things i would if i was in the same argument.
Im interested in what type of a person you are. male/female? age? lol

Hahaha if only I was F Tigran :laugh: :o (no love smiley?!)
haha M/20 here.

[TigranJamharian]

if only...... lol

[MadHandle]

Rev. Thomas Malthus 'principles of population' were hardly adhered to in England. It was about the time we were rubbishing the latter part of Darwins work relating to cranial features, skin colour and deviant minds...

That was why i opened a topic on Poverty and solutions. We date back to 1832 for our first Poor Laws. They were set out so any parish that had people that could not work to feed themselves, it was the responsibility of the parish members to do so.

But then all of a sudden we had the industrial revolution and bang... Workhouses, nothing more than prisons for those that could not help themselves.

The reason your population is declining is because there is no work, or help for the poor... After only a week of thought I have the following ideas for you.

!)Draw up a treaty with the azers/turkey/iran & georgia. Actually, no... Draw the treaty up with the UN. Tell them of your plight, 40% poverty etc. Tell them shoulid either of the 4 afore mentioned armies attack you, you will need their protection. Dismantle your army, with an agreement by all 4 that they will not attack. Give the azers Kharabagh... it is full with armenians, what good is it to them.? Do not argue, make sure the lands you have now are marked out. For the Turks, they can see increased revenue from the blockade being lifted. Again, they have to agree to none violent conduct. For Iran, you have the 20 years of gas you have signed for... Set about caring for your poor, and building your economy... When the unemployed have work, it means your economy is booming. From Mount Ararat alone your stable, safe country should make 1 billion$ from tourists. People will see this, it is your gold, oil, trust me... from that christians across the world will flock to if it is safe land. Were it on American land it would have huge ad boads on now.!!! You just do noy market it right.While your country is so unstable, nobody will insure holiday makers. In honesty, I can't wait to get there... The old headstrong problems you have with other countries around you.. forget them, leave them to an higher punishment.

I saw someone mention tourism being your bread and butter here... Hooooooooooooooooraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.... You seen the light,, so get on
...


Karabagh is not gonna be given up just like that....I personally seen what it took to win that war...and no way its just gonna be handed back. Plus, it has a really rich soil, it can contribute to the economy a lot. So, NO, Karabagh won't be given to anyone. Its Armenia's.

[Hayq]

True, I was against the war, but we fought it and we should hold onto it. No peace loving hippy crap.

[MadHandle]

True, I was against the war, but we fought it and we should hold onto it. No peace loving hippy crap.

helll yeaahh...Azerbaijan lost, bottom line. Wars happen, land is lost and land is gained. Armenia lost about 70 % of its historic territory to Turkey. Do we want it bacK? Yes, will they give it back?Ofcoarse not. Same thing with Karabagh. Plus, a lot of lives have been lost in that war. I even remeber stories about all these "azatamartiks" who took out these tanks and what not. I'm pretty sure most of my childhood freinds are as of now in karabagha and I would of been too if I was there and I don't think I would of still changed my oppinion.

[xBaron Dants]

Armenia lost about 70 % of its historic territory to Turkey. Do we want it bacK? Yes, will they give it back?Ofcoarse not. Same thing with Karabagh.

Not the same thing. Azerbaidjan can't even use the historic territory argument over Artsakh.

[Hayq]

It is historic, history is anything that happened in the past.

[MadHandle]

Not the same thing. Azerbaidjan can't even use the historic territory argument over Artsakh.

True....

One thing I don't get though...why can't we get Nagichevan. I know a lot of Azeries live there, but it just always bothered me...

[Hayq]

Because there are no Armenians in Naxchivan. THey are all Azeris, all Armenians ran away from Nax.

[CatWoman]

It is historic, history is anything that happened in the past.
What is historic? Karabakh was historically part of Azerbaijan? Can you keep your mouth shut for a change?

[MadHandle]

Same with Karabagh...I don't see any Azeris there...I wanna see karabagh as part of Armenia in the near future.

[Hayq]

What is historic? Karabakh was historically part of Azerbaijan? Can you keep your mouth shut for a change?

For the past 70years it was. That is HISTORIC. Borders change, get that through your head. Artsakh was Azeri, now it is Armenian. Eastern Turkey was Armenian, now it is Turkish. If you want land, you need to invade it. There is nothing Historic needed to prove anything like this.

Stop ganging up on me. :crying:

[Hayq]

Same with Karabagh...I don't see any Azeris there...I wanna see karabagh as part of Armenia in the near future.

It is part of Armenia, the UN is getting annoying already. They claim something, but they do not ratify it.

Naxchivan is all Azeri, if you are to invade it, it will attract too much attention and would make Armenians the agressive force (which I am hoping we are not).

[CatWoman]

For the past 70years it was. That is HISTORIC. Borders change, get that through your head. Artsakh was Azeri, now it is Armenian. Eastern Turkey was Armenian, now it is Turkish. If you want land, you need to invade it. There is nothing Historic needed to prove anything like this.

Stop ganging up on me. :crying:

Karabagh was connected to Armenia in ancient times, the connection was lost after the division of the Armenian Kingdom in 387 AD. Now that is history not the past 70 years with Azeris.

[xBaron Dants]

It is historic, history is anything that happened in the past.

Karabakh has never been part of an independant Azeri republic or an Azeri kingdom.

[xBaron Dants]

Karabakh has never been part of an independant Azeri republic or an Azeri kingdom.


Actually, I may be mistaken about this. But to my knowledge, during the first republics of Armenia and Azerbaidjan, Karabakh was still contested.

[Hayq]

Karabagh was connected to Armenia in ancient times, the connection was lost after the division of the Armenian Kingdom in 387 AD. Now that is history not the past 70 years with Azeris.

Does that mean India belongs to Britain? No. To the stronger go the spoils of war.

[CatWoman]

Actually, I may be mistaken about this. But to my knowledge, during the first republics of Armenia and Azerbaidjan, Karabakh was still contested.


As far as I know, no Karabakh was never officially part of Azerbaijan. Under Russian rule in 1800s it was linked economically to Baku Province, that was later on named Azerbaijan. But then after Russian revolution in 1917, Karabakh became a state governed by Armenians again. However, when Azeris started to build their State, they pretty much ignored the Armenians right to rule Karabakh. Also when Stalin gave Karabakh to Azerbaijan, it gave it as a autonomous region. So I don’t think it ever was officially part of the Azeri Kingdom.

[obi]

Obi, I think you might need more than a week of thought.


But it just seems crazy.

Armenia is about the size of Belgium, not big, not all powerful.
Do you think they do not sleep at night for the fear that France, England or Germany might invade??? Errrrm, no, Your greatest asset is Mount ararat, it could generate so much for you. But the national paranoia keeps you gate closed, your minds closed.

[Hayq]

Well was India BRITISH originally??

Edit: Your comment is a bit contradictory wouldn't you say?

All I am saying is that Karabagh should not belong to Armenia because of Historic reasons. a country grows, a country shrinks. If you want the lands, you have to fight them.

[CatWoman]

But it just seems crazy.

Armenia is about the size of Belgium, not big, not all powerful.
Do you think they do not sleep at night for the fear that France, England or Germany might invade??? Errrrm, no, Your greatest asset is Mount ararat, it could generate so much for you. But the national paranoia keeps you gate closed, your minds closed.
You do know that mount Ararat is in Turkey's soil right? I believe it was given to Turkey over a couple of treaties.

[xBaron Dants]

But it just seems crazy.

Armenia is about the size of Belgium, not big, not all powerful.
Do you think they do not sleep at night for the fear that France, England or Germany might invade??? Errrrm, no, Your greatest asset is Mount ararat, it could generate so much for you. But the national paranoia keeps you gate closed, your minds closed.

Ararat is part of Turkey. More proof that you need more than a week of thought...

[CatWoman]

All I am saying is that Karabagh should not belong to Armenia because of Historic reasons. a country grows, a country shrinks. If you want the lands, you have to fight them.
But the point still stands, Karabakh is historically part of Armenia not Azerbaijan. And if I'm not mistakin, that is what we were discussing. :wave:

[Hayq]

...Dashnaks are fools, if we would have surrendered to the communists instead of wait until this defeat Armenia could have been larger than it is.

1918, Armenia should have surrendered to the Soviets, this would have brought more people to Armenia and incase of a Turkish attack it would be backed by Russia.

See, Armenian politicians dont think, they dont know whos xxxx to suck and when to suck it.

[Hayq]

But the point still stands, Karabakh is historically part of Armenia not Azerbaijan. And if I'm not mistakin, that is what we were discussing. :wave:

That does not mean it CANT be Azeri.

[obi]

I asked my girl this, she said it was on Armenian soil. Sorry, misleading facts.

[MadHandle]

^^By "my girl" I think he means his girlfriend. And obi, you can't compare Belguim to Armenia. Belgium basically has super powers as neighbours. Armenia has to do things the gutta way. Trade with neighbouring countries is hard since one has a border blocked and the other one is at war. Iran and Georgia are the only reliable trading partners. Thats why karabagh is an improtant asset to the Armenian economy cause weellll...in order for Armenia to have trading partners it would have to have something to actually trade and karabagh could be real good to Armenia...If Armenia gives that up then a huge part of the economy or atleast the agricultural aspect will be gone.

[obi]

Mad:Is there oil in Karabagh??? I understand the fighting now... I figured Mount Ararat was in Armenia, they worth more than oil....!

[Hayq]

no oil in the region except Baku.

And no, I live in Los Angeles and he lives in Fresno, 3 hour drive (1 if an armenian drives ;))

[TigranJamharian]

Actually, I may be mistaken about this. But to my knowledge, during the first republics of Armenia and Azerbaidjan, Karabakh was still contested.
this might just be the first instance of someone quoting themselves in a consecutive post. bravo vrouyr. lol

[Hayq]

noone likes you, go cut your wrists.

But you still can't prove me wrong.

[Siggie]

C'mon guys. You all know the rules. Enough! I don't want to come here and delete two pages of posts because you guys can't stay on topic.
I don't want to close threads and I don't want to ban people, but if this continues I'll do both.
Disagree with eachother, but don't call each other names and drag issues from thread to thread. We're adults here. Why can't we conduct ourselves with some maturity?

[Vassabi]

Hayq, would you please answer on a question?
what would you ever do useful for Armenia? Reading your posts it seems to me that abosultely NOTHING but siting in the forums and saying that you hated your visit in Yerevan, you should understand that one must love his motherland not for comfortable jacuzzis that it offers or tasty hamburgers in McDonalds. Motherland is something more.

I am really sorry that there are such Armenians like you, thanks god such like you are in minor.
With no regards and no respect to you.
Vassabi.

[Thai-Samurai]

no oil in the region except Baku.

And no, I live in Los Angeles and he lives in Fresno, 3 hour drive (1 if an armenian drives ;))

Who lives in Fresno?