notes and comments

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Friday, December 25, 2009
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RAFFI'S WARNING AND
CHARENTS'S MESSAGE
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To prove to a visiting Venetian painter what the neck of a beheaded man really looks like, Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent, also known as the Lawgiver, had a prisoner before him and beheaded.
It is said that the Venetian painter was so shocked by the bloody spectacle that he left that same night under cover of darkness.
That is the difference between that Venetian painter and us.
The Venetian left.
We stayed
We stayed even after Raffi warned us the Ottoman Empire was no place for us because Turks had no respect for human life.
We ignored Raffi's warning in the 19th century as we ignore today Charents's final message concerning our “salvation.” By “we” I mean less the people and more the leaders who speechify during the day about survival and turn into gravediggers under cover of darkness at night.
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In my next commentary I will explain why “treason and betrayal are in our blood” (Raffi).
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[Eddo211]

Re: elegy

....In my next commentary I will explain why “treason and betrayal are in our blood” (Raffi).
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For the love of..........

[Anoush]

Re: elegy

for the love of..........

Ditto. Եւ ՆՄԱՆԱՊԷՍ Էտտօ ճան.......

[ArmSurvival]

Re: elegy

Part of what I’m doing is entertaining ideas and notions that are backed up by a certain amount of evidence. So don’t treat what I’m saying as my exact version of the events. My only point is this: That J ews had a role in the genocide on par with Germans or Kurds, or even Turks, and that a Zionist influence in the ideology of Pan-Turkism and the execution of the genocide is entirely plausible based on eye-witness testimonies and the course of events. The key word is plausible. So I’m not saying a specific version of events is definitely what took place, only that its possible, and that some of these notions are indisputable facts while part of the story remains in dispute.

Nice try, but you flat-out did not answer my question about your assertion of J ewish members of the CUP railroading Turkey into the War. The failure to provide evidence on this specific point is the type of weakness that pervades your entire argument.

Read the excerpts I quoted a couple of pages back. There is an eye-witness account that explicitly states that Carasso was anxiously waiting for the beginning of the next Balkan war. That next Balkan war is what exploded into WWI.

Again, not all eye-witness accounts are gospel. But they exist and we must entertain the idea of them being true in various degrees in order to gain a better understanding of the events.

Let me cite one example of a fundamental flaw in your model: Why would Emmanuel Carasso, an Italian J ew who immigrated to Turkey and made it his home, want to destroy Turkey, where he eventually made millions from being a high level functionary.

I don’t know why you say “eventually”: He was already immensely rich before his time in the Young Turk party.

Also, you are making an assumption that Turkey was Carasso's "home". Men like Carasso have no home, they only have hosts. Why did he originally move from Italy to Turkey? Was Italy not his family’s home for generations? This man clearly has no allegiance to any individual country or nation. He simply follows money and opportunities like most international bankers, who are globalists above anything else. More often than not, they feed on nations like parasites in order to benefit their “class” and their personal circles. If you live in the US, then you saw that happen before your very eyes just a few months ago when the bankers and the government sold out the American people. You need to realize that this is the norm when it comes to international bankers and how they treat their host nations.

Because he wanted to go live in Palestine? ? Or ask the same question about any of the other J ews in the CUP, men whose ancestry in Turkey went back centuries, who swam like barracudas in the Turkish cultural sea, who were totally at home there. To be pioneers in Palestine after they destroyed Turkey? Give me a break!

When did I ever say these people moved to Palestine? You’re not reading carefully. I said their goal was to create a Zionist state. I never said they had a desire to move there. Even today many wealthy Zionists live outside of Israel, but continue to work towards the advancement of Zionism by masquerading as die-hard Americans, Europeans, etc.

If you read about the history of Zionism, you will find that the most important figures in the movement (even Herzl) avoided visiting Palestine. On the rare occasion they had to visit the region for some type of meeting, they absolutely hated their experience according to their own personal memoirs. However, they were 100% devoted to the creation of a Zionist state in Palestine. This is a very important point that you would do well to register in your evaluation of the situation.

And I don't share your writing off the spirit of resistance among the Armenians. History shows otherwise, wherever Armenians had the chance.

The people who actually resisted fought like lions, and its exclusively because of them that Armenia exists today. Armenians are great fighters when they need to be. That’s why I said that if Armenians rebelled en masse in conjunction with the Balkan nations prior to WWI and the genocide (or even during WWI), we would have won our independence like the Greeks and Serbs. However, I’m talking about the general population. Obviously, many of the able-bodied men were imprisoned and killed in the army, so that was a significant disadvantage (which is why in hindsight, we should have rebelled prior to WWI). But how many people out of the total Armenian population was part of the liberation movements prior to the genocide? Not a whole lot from what I’ve heard. Many of the fighters during the genocide were forced to fight because of circumstances, i.e., their family was murdered and they were seeking revenge, or more importantly, they would be killed themselves if they didn’t fight. That’s not to say there was no Armenian national sentiment, its just that for most of the population, those sentiments were not worth fighting to the death, especially when no one expected an all-out genocide and the destruction of their entire world. Obviously an armed resistance became worth their trouble once the genocide and WWI started, but by then a lot of damage was already inflicted.

If their motives was as you stated above then I still see no reason for them to uproot/kill over a million old men, women and children who would be irrelevant after destroying the so called Armenian threat from the intelligentsia and securing all men of military age…………….this type of cleansing is messy business and it complicates matters and would not work toward the said objectives. Sorry I cannot buy this, there needs to be more proof.

You said it yourself: Cleansing is messy business. A centralized state can organize a genocide, but there are so many groups doing the killing (Turks, Kurds, Circassians, soldiers, peasants, convicts, tribesmen, etc) that the state cannot suddenly stop the killings even if they wanted to. Once the killings begin, the situation spirals out of control very fast, especially when you consider the type of people who were doing the killing as well as the general atmosphere during WWI.

Also, killing the Armenians served to distract the entire society from what the CUP was doing. Believe it or not, some Turks were wary of the Young Turks because of their J ewish nature (it was more commonly known at the time that the Young Turks were mostly J ews). However, when Armenians were once again made into public enemy #1 through state propaganda and everyone was free to steal from them, kidnap their daughters, and take their land, the people suddenly lost focus from the CUP. The people were busy trying to secure themselves during the world war, where supplies were scarce, and the Armenians were an easy target. There was also the Young Turk wartime propaganda that if the Armenians weren’t slaughtered, then the Russian army would conquer the region. So there were a lot of factors at play and a lot of different angles that we need to consider.

Furthermore this theory paints Turkey as innocent victims that they claim to be today and the Armenians as a thriving society and living the great life under the Ottoman Empire with no sense of awareness or self determination. Also as stated before officially subscribing to this belief (Zionism guilty Genocide) will severely hurt the Armenian cause, even if by a chance there is truth in it to certain degree, which is very doubtful in my view.

Turks are not innocent victims: They allowed the CUP to rule Turkey in their name. Turkish convicts and irregular soldiers did a lot of the killing and the forced marches. They also currently hold all our stolen land and properties and deny these events at the official state level. Also, many of the people who ordered and conducted the genocide were offered government positions in the new Turkish Republic. For these reasons they will always be the guiltiest party and the party that is required to compensate our losses.

Politically, we shouldn’t raise the J ewish issue for reasons of necessity. We shouldn’t pick fights with powerful J ews who can easily derail our efforts, or who might one day see Turkey as a detriment. If we raise this issue publicly it will complicate matters and put our goals beyond our reach. But at the same time, Armenians as a nation should be wary of J ews of the globalist/Zionist variety by being conscious of the crimes they committed against us and continue to commit against others as well. And more importantly, we should be conscious of the tactics they use to carry out their crimes and cover them up.

[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

ArmSurvival:

Saying "There is an eye-witness account that explicitly states that Carasso was anxiously waiting for the beginning of the next Balkan war. That next Balkan war is what exploded into WWI" falls pathetically short of providing proof for your blunt and unqualified assertion, "the entrance by the Ottoman Empire into WWI. . . . was encouraged and advocated by these same J ewish figures within the Young Turk party."
Just because that assertion is what your grand theory calls for does not make it so.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Friday, December 26, 2009
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TREASON & HEROISM
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A nation or a community run by traitors will constantly emphasize the importance of patriotism, self-sacrifice, and heroism. In such an environment, heroes will invariably outnumber traitors.
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Traitors don't think of themselves as traitors. They think of themselves as patriots who are doing what must be done to safeguard the survival of the nation. But since in politics, as in war, there are either winners or losers, losers will be classified as traitors by their political adversaries.
Case in point: After the liberation of France, both Petain (a hero of World War I) and Laval were condemned to death by a French tribunal on the grounds that they had collaborated with the Nazis and they were therefore traitors.
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Were Krikor Zohrab and Anastas Mikoyan traitors or heroes?
If we judge them by their actions alone (as the French tribunal chose to do) they do not qualify as heroes. Zohrab saved Talaat's life from the Sultan's secret police; and Mikoyan carried out the Stalinist purges in Armenia so thoroughly that to this day only unprincipled mediocrities survive. In other words, their actions resulted in defeat and tragedy.
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Are our dividers in the Diaspora today heroes or traitors? If we judge them by the Biblical dictum “a house divided against itself cannot stand,” and by Charents's final “message,” they cannot be said to be heroic figures.
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One could of course explain and justify the actions of traitors by pleading extenuating circumstances, which might as well be inadmissible in our context.
The fact remains that both Zohrab and Mikoyan were not just wrong, they were catastrophically wrong, and both paid a heavy price for their blunder. Zohrab was murdered by order of the same man whose life he saved by risking his own, and Mikoyan spent the final years of his life in constant fear to such a degree that he slept with a revolver under his pillow with the intention of killing himself if they ever came to arrest him in the middle of the night.
As for the nation: I will let you decide whether their actions contributed to our collective profile as winners or losers.
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[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

To ArmSurvival

Originally Posted by Diranakir
And I don't share your writing off the spirit of resistance among the Armenians. History shows otherwise, wherever Armenians had the chance.
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ArmSurvival's response:

The people who actually resisted fought like lions, and its exclusively because of them that Armenia exists today. Armenians are great fighters when they need to be. That’s why I said that if Armenians rebelled en masse in conjunction with the Balkan nations prior to WWI and the genocide (or even during WWI), we would have won our independence like the Greeks and Serbs. However, I’m talking about the general population. Obviously, many of the able-bodied men were imprisoned and killed in the army, so that was a significant disadvantage (which is why in hindsight, we should have rebelled prior to WWI). But how many people out of the total Armenian population was part of the liberation movements prior to the genocide? Not a whole lot from what I’ve heard. Many of the fighters during the genocide were forced to fight because of circumstances, i.e., their family was murdered and they were seeking revenge, or more importantly, they would be killed themselves if they didn’t fight. That’s not to say there was no Armenian national sentiment, its just that for most of the population, those sentiments were not worth fighting to the death, especially when no one expected an all-out genocide and the destruction of their entire world. Obviously an armed resistance became worth their trouble once the genocide and WWI started, but by then a lot of damage was already inflicted.
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It's an absurdity to talk about the Armenians rebelling in conjunction with the Slavs.
They had no ability to rise "en masse". They were dispersed subjects of a mighty empire living in little mountain valleys far from each other and with very limited
ability to communicate with each other. They were a tiny minority in a hostile sea.
This cannot be said of the Slavs and Greeks. The historic, cultural, economic, political and geographic conditions prevailing in the two different regions were entirely different. The Armenian revolutionary movement wouldn't have existed without the implicit support of a much wider segment of the population than you're willing to acknowledge, and you show very little awareness of or regard for the historic substance of that struggle. Too much 'big picture', not enough detail.

[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

ArmSurvival, You have definitely (had already) answered my question below on p. 46 of Thread.

Question from Diranakir to ArmSurvival on p. 48 of Thread:
You say that numerous journalists and historians say the Young Turks were run and financed by the J ews. Can you give me one quote from a legitimate historian (not a journalist) who says that in so many words?
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Robert William Seton-Watson was a British political activist and historian (head of the Royal Historical Society from 1946-49). He wrote in his book The Rise of Nationality in the Balkans (1966/67, p. 134-36):

[Quote from Robert William Seton-Watson]
The revolution which they promoted was above all the work of a single town. It was in Salonica, under the shelter of Masonic lodges, that the Committee of Union and Progress, the secret organism which overthrew the Hamidian regime, grew up and flourished. The real brains of the movement were J ewish or Judeo-Moslem. Their financial aid came from the wealthy Dunmehs and J ews of Salonica, and from the capitalists—international or semi-international—of Vienna; Budapest, Berlin and perhaps also of Paris and London.
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On Carasso [from Diranakir]: it looks like he was descended from an Italian J ewish family, but that he was born in Salonica. He graduated from the Israelite Alliance School there. Important facts. If I find out differently I will post it.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Sunday, December 27, 2009
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AN INVITATION TO THE BEHEADING
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The French have a saying: “This little beast is nasty; when attacked, it defends itself.” Except that in our case, the little beast was a wounded tiger with nine lives, and we were no better than a toothless lapdog.
We were slaughtered because we have been thrice cursed with “earthquakes, bloodthirsty neighbors, and brainless leaders” (Avedik Issahakian); and ever since these brainless leaders have been trying to convince us there is nothing wrong with them; it's the rest of the world that's rotten; and what is even more unbelievable is that we believe them.
We lost because we believed the Christian West would not allow the massacre of brothers by bloodthirsty infidels – notwithstanding the fact that the West had already allowed a series of massacres to take place without lifting a finger (see VISIONS OF ARARAT: WRITINGS ON ARMENIA by Christopher Walker [New York, 1997]).
We were slaughtered because our Christian brothers in the West were at war and too busy slaughtering one another to give a damn about an obscure tribe of Christians being slaughtered by infidels on another continent (see the Preface of G.B. Shaw's ANDROCLES AND THE LION).
We lost because “we were tiny islands in a Turkish sea” (Hagop Oshagan).
We lost because our revolutionaries were long on enthusiasm and short on experience. One contemporary scholar refers to them as “twenty somethings” (see Michael Bobelian, CHILDREN OF ARMENIA [New York, 2009]).
We lost because we underestimated the strength and determination of the Turks to defend these 600-year old homeland.
We lost because we believed in the professed brotherly love of serial killers. (Consider the case of Zohrab saving Talaat's life by risking his own.)
We lost because we were divided. (See the correspondence between our revolutionaries and Artin Dadian in Pars Tuglaci, THE ROLE OF THE DADIAN FAMILY IN OTTOMAN, SOCIAL, ECONOMIC, AND POLITICAL LIFE (Istanbul, 1993).
We were slaughtered because we have been fed “a steady and monotonous diet of shameless flattery and transparent lies” (Stepan Voskanian).
We were slaughtered because our conception of history has been shaped by “deceivers... the smoke of incense, and the sound of sharagans” (Nigoghos Sarafian).
Far from being an expected and unforeseeable Tragedy that “fell on us like a thief in the night,” our genocide might as well have been “an invitation to the beheading) (Nabokov).
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[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Monday, December 28, 2009
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THIS AND THAT
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Patriotism is an irrefutable argument only to patriots.
So is fascism to fascist.
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If faith and truth were one, we would have only one religion and no jihads.
Faith guarantees nothing.
To say that faith is beyond criticism is to justify a big lie with a bigger lie.
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Deceivers exist because deception works.
It is astonishing the number of great men who were taken in by Hitler and Stalin, both of whom made a mafia godfather look like a benevolent uncle.
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To an overly sensitive person, a wrong word can be as catastrophic as a volcanic eruption or an earthquake.
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Turning points in one's life may happen not in noteworthy events but in insignificant occurrences that may at first escape notice.
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To most Armenians the Genocide is only a page in our history – the darkest page, granted, but still only a page.
Books, including history books, are one thing, life another.
The average Armenian is much more seriously wounded by an insult than by any single page in history.
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To ignore or cover up our problems is also to reject in advance all possible solutions.
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We will mature as a nation only when we take ideas as seriously as money.
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