notes and comments

[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

TO AXEL: Thank you Axel. I would appreciate the source that considers Dr. Nazim one of the principal architects of the genocide.
I have heard that said about several other figures. How many principal architects can there be or did there need to be?

You don't make it clear what Beylerian's claim is (does this refer to Dr. Nazim or something else?).

I should eventually be able to get hold of Kedourie's book. Could you refer me to the specific parts that have to do with this discussion?

The quote offered below from Storrs doesn't seem to suggest anything more than 'heavy involvement' to me. Maybe you could explain your comment a bit more.

I take for granted that certain CUP and Zionist interests overlapped. It seems very likely that some members of the CUP had secret Zionist sentiments. But the fundamental question of this discussion is whether the CUP was a mere creation of Zionism from the start and whether it was controlled by it for its own purposes from start to finish. That's the model I disagree with.

Without even mentioning Talaat Pasha, Dr Nazim is considered as one of the principal architects of the genocide. So it is more than "heavy involvement in the CUP".

Getting back to the involvement part, Arthur Beylerian mentions this article by Elie Kedourie (of Iraqi jewish background) to support his claim. I'm not sure it has been mentioned in this thread so I'm giving the link to the reference (if you are interested). The content does not appear to be available online.

Googling from there you can find other resources. For instance, In the Anglo-Arab Labyrinth: The McMahon-Husayn Correspondence and Its Interpretations from the same author. There, is a quote from Ronald Storrs' correspondence with a British Colonel (O A W Fitzgerald). With his letter, Ronald Storrs encloses a report "submitted by an unnamed Syrian to the British military authorities in Egypt" declaring that: "the only thing that filled the inhabitants with hatred against the (Ottoman) Government is the fact that the Zionists are supported by the Government and the Union and Progress party, and the lands of the natives are taken away by force to be sold to the Zionists. These Zionists are closely connected with Berlin and Constantinople and are the most important factor in the policy of Palestine" (this dates back to 28 Dec, 1914)

[axel]

Re: elegy

Diranakir,

I would appreciate the source that considers Dr. Nazim one of the principal architects of the genocide.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Dr+Nazim+armenian+genocide&rls=com.microsoft:fr:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7

You don't make it clear what Beylerian's claim is (does this refer to Dr. Nazim or something else?).

L'un des faits les plus saillants de la Révolution de 1908 est le rôle précis et actif de certains représentants de l'importante communauté israélite de Salonique. Des personnalités juives et plus encore, des deunmehs (Juifs de Salonique convertis à l'Islam, deunmeh signifiant "retourné" ou "converti". Parmi les deunmehs les plus célèbres, citons le Dr Nazim, Midhat Chukru bey, Djavid bey, Rahmi bey, Remzi bey), ont, dès la première heure, collaboré étroitement avec les Jeunes Turcs pour l'établissement du régime constitutionnel, entretenant avec eux des liens d'une confiance sans égale. Carasso, avocat, et plus tard député juif de Salonique, bien connu dans les milieux de la franc-maçonnerie occidentale, comptera ainsi parmi les figures de premier plan durant l'époque constitutionnelle de 1908 à 1918. Avec l'encouragement des Jeunes Turcs, Carasso fondera même plusieurs loges maçonniques à Salonique et Constantinople (cf Elie Kedourie "Young Turks, Freemasons and xxxs" in Middle Eastern Studies, no 1 (1971), pp92-94), recrutant les membres principalement dans les cercles du Comité Union et Progrès. Le cheïkh-ul Islam, lui-même, le plus grand dignitaire de la religion musulmane dans l'Empire Ottoman, sera initié dans la loge "Constitution" dont le vénérable est Djavid bey. Bien que le siège central du CUP soit à Constantinople, Salonique restera le foyer du mouvement jeune turc jusqu'à l'occupation grecque en 1912.

The quote offered below from Storrs doesn't seem to suggest anything more than 'heavy involvement' to me. Maybe you could explain your comment a bit more.

The quote originates from a correspondence between two british officials. Storrs gives credence to the thesis according to which "Zionists are supported by the Government and the Union and Progress party" which, to me at least, is an element that heavily suggests collusion between doenmehs and zionists.

I take for granted that certain CUP and Zionist interests overlapped. It seems very likely that some members of the CUP had secret Zionist sentiments.

Ok but I don't see overlapping interests in sponsoring the establishment of zionists in Palestine, if that was the case.

But the fundamental question of this discussion is whether the CUP was a mere creation of Zionism from the start and whether it was controlled by it for its own purposes from start to finish. That's the model I disagree with.

The last assertion is difficult to either prove or disprove. That it was a mere creation of zionism from the start or was later subverted by zionist elements (that these politically involved elements suddenly developed zionist sympathies appears unlikely. they must have had such sympathies from the start. one should not forget the religious background) doesn't appear fundamental to me. What can be said is the CUP had freemasonic roots (as the Young- suggests), that doenmeh elements were highly influent in it. Obviously there were other elements in the CUP who weren't pursuing the same goals. What were the exact goals of each of the members? It is impossible to say for sure. Nobody knows except God.

[gegev]

Re: 101

#

I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks!

[Diranakir]

Re: elegy

Diranakir,

http://www.google.com/search?q=Dr+Nazim+armenian+genocide&rls=com.microsoft:fr:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7

The quote originates from a correspondence between two british officials. Storrs gives credence to the thesis according to which "Zionists are supported by the Government and the Union and Progress party" which, to me at least, is an element that heavily suggests collusion between doenmehs and zionists.



Ok but I don't see overlapping interests in sponsoring the establishment of zionists in Palestine, if that was the case.



The last assertion is difficult to either prove or disprove. That it was a mere creation of zionism from the start or was later subverted by zionist elements (that these politically involved elements suddenly developed zionist sympathies appears unlikely. they must have had such sympathies from the start. one should not forget the religious background) doesn't appear fundamental to me. What can be said is the CUP had freemasonic roots (as the Young- suggests), that doenmeh elements were highly influent in it. Obviously there were other elements in the CUP who weren't pursuing the same goals. What were the exact goals of each of the members? It is impossible to say for sure. Nobody knows except God.

Yes, what more could one say? The image emerges of a Zionist/Ottoman knot that can't be untied to identify the strands. Very sobering. And it makes the current stand-off between Zionist organizations and Armenians quite understandable.

The quote from Beylerian echoes everything I've been reading. The writing is on the wall. This has been a very difficult but illuminating discussion and it seems we're 'getting our wheels on the ground'.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

01/05/10
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FRAGMENTS / III
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After we lose a war – and according to Saroyan we have lost them all – we call our losers heroes. There are cultures in which losers are either executed or commit suicide.
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I love the contradictions of an honest man. I loathe even the shadow of an inconsistency in the dishonest.
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I loathe anti-Semites because they are on the side of majorities and against perennial victims. I identify with victim for two reasons: (one) I am an Armenian, and (two) I am a dissident.
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It is painful to be misunderstood. But when I think of the alternative – to be understood and appreciated by idiots – I feel much better.
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Theatrical producer Joe Papp to an uncooperative mayor: “Shakespeare should be as important as garbage collection.”
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I remember to have read somewhere: “British soldiers fight like lions, but lions led by donkeys.”
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[gegev]

Re: elegy

01/05/10
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FRAGMENTS / III
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It is painful to be misunderstood. But when I think of the alternative – to be understood and appreciated by idiots – I feel much better.
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This part is very impressive. ...!/?

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

01/06/10
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FRAGMENTS / IV
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Like all fundamentalists, an Armenian wants to change the world but not himself. He refuses to do the possible and attempts the impossible – that is to say, to teach justice, human rights, and morality to present and former empires like the United States and Turkey that operate on the assumption they know better than a failed state like Iran, Yemen and Somalia -- states with little history of central government control; states so corrupt and inept that they shoot to kill innocent demonstrators with a legitimate grievance, or they violate the human rights of their own citizens.
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To assess oneself amounts to pronouncing a verdict of not guilty after a trial without judge, jury, and prosecution.
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American children are brought up to believe in Santa. Nothing wrong in that so long as childhood illusions are not replaced with propaganda.
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The greatest gift parents can make to their children is the gift of approaching reality without illusions.
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[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

QUOTE=gegev;288317]This part is very impressive. ...!/?[/QUOTE]

thank you,
my good friend,
whoever you are!

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

01/06/10
**********************************
FRAGMENTS / IV
************************************************** *
Like all fundamentalists, an Armenian wants to change the world but not himself. He refuses to do the possible and attempts the impossible – that is to say, to teach justice, human rights, and morality to present and former empires like the United States and Turkey that operate on the assumption they know better than a failed state like Iran, Yemen and Somalia -- states with little history of central government control; states so corrupt and inept that they shoot to kill innocent demonstrators with a legitimate grievance, or they violate the human rights of their own citizens.

I am reminded of the priest's "Christmas" sermon I heard today. What a jackass, I went because today is supposed to be the day Jesus was born, and he's rambling about "the ones we need not name" and Armenians, and how we must stay strong as Armenians and wait to get our justice.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: elegy

Then can I express the same doubts about the following passage that you quote (on p. 46, post 679 of Thread) from Joachim Prinz's "The Secret xxxs" ?

If you’re implying that what Prinz wrote is deliberate disinformation, then I would probably agree. However, this doesn’t mean that the J ewish involvement he mentions is incorrect; if anything he would be downplaying it. He really has nothing to gain by telling the complete truth about the J ews of Turkey, but rather he would be telling fragments of the truth. Why tell fragments and not mention it at all? Then people would know he is full of sh*t by omitting information that is written in Ataturk’s biographies which attest to his Donmeh ancestry, as well as other well-known information regarding J ews in Turkey.

Also, Prinz’s admission of certain facts doesn’t have the same conflict of interest as Levy’s attempt at genocide denial and removal of Zionists from the equation. Someone like Levy, a Zionist who is too malicious to accept that genocide happened, isn’t going to ascribe any sort of connection between the Ottoman government and Zionism, because he knows damn well that many people know the truth of the genocide and would be able to put two and two together. So as a genocide denier, Levy has to cover up and twist around many clues that are indirectly connected to the genocide, such as the J ewish involvement in the CUP, because he knows full well that a genocide took place, but denies it for political/monetary/personal reasons. Levy's deceptive disinformation tactics tie into the broader school of thought in Zionism: Zionists always want to keep the holocaust as a unique event in world history, while simultaneously covering up the crimes of powerful Zionists, in order to play the perpetual victim and justify their barbaric behavior not just in Israel but worldwide.

The short answer to your final question and comment is as you yourself said: it shows heavy Donmeh INVOLVEMENT in the CUP. Are you willing to leave their role at that?
If so, we are in agreement.

Their involvement is definite and undeniable. What needs to be studied is the extent of their involvement, since they are named by many sources as funding the party, sheltering it, as well as providing the ideological foundation of the party and implementing those ideologies through state action. This wasn’t like having a couple of J ews sitting as members of parliament and voting on taxes or carrying out some menial duties; it was clearly much deeper and more profound than that.

If in the Wickham-Steed 'quote' you meant Carasso was looking forward to WWI, you should have said WWI. That 'quote' is the only foundation for your saying that the hebraic members (PLURAL) of the CUP railroaded Turkey into entering the war, whereas it only 'reports' what one man, Carasso, supposedly said. That is not nearly proof of your assertion about how the decision was made for Turkey to enter the war. You simply don't know, and you don't seem to know or care what the other members of the CUP thought about entering the war.

The quote I used simply serves to make sense out of a couple of seemingly odd events. One of these odd events is the Ottoman entrance into WWI. At the time, it was no secret the Ottoman Empire was in no shape to take on European powers in a total war scenario (even Abdul-Hamid who was a strong domestic figure, had to change some of his domestic policies in order to keep European powers off his back). But what is even odder than the fact they attacked a neutral Russian Empire is the way they chose to attack them: A frontal assault against mountainous Russian positions in the dead winter of December. I don’t care how bad of a commander Enver might have been, ANYONE could have recognized (ESPECIALLY with German military intelligence) that a frontal assault on mountain positions against competant troops in snowy weather is nothing short of suicidal. And if that wasn’t absurd enough for you to doubt the official story, remember this fact: Once Enver's main attacking Ottoman army was completely smashed and losing ground fast to the Russians, with the rest of the Allies closing in on Constantinople and the rest of Turkey, what did Enver do? He raised a new army of 30,000 men and marched, not to defend Turkey (his supposed homeland), but to Baku, and then onward to Tajikistan. Really… Tajikistan? It makes a lot more sense if his military actions were deliberate suicide missions in order to weaken the Ottoman Empire and allow Europeans to conquer the near east. He even fled the bloody scene as fast as he could right after he did his job of destroying the Ottoman war effort. Does any of this prove anything? Maybe, maybe not. But Enver's actions make a lot more sense if you assume that the CUP was deliberately trying to destroy the Ottoman Empire-- As opposed to assuming that a bunch of non-Turks (like Enver) were concerned with Turkey's future, and somehow didn't realize that a frontal assualt on mountainous Russian positions in the middle of winter was a bad idea. Personally, I don't know what the exact truth is, but to me, one story is clearly more plausible than the other.

Another one of the odd events that the Wickham-Steed quote helps to explain is the fact that the Zionists (who were supposedly neutral or even pro-Ottoman in this whole affair) gained a mandate over Palestine as soon as British troops drove the Ottomans out. They received the mandate before any post-war settlement, and even before WWI itself had ended. And obviously, the mandate by the British was not made in haste; they probably reached an agreement with the Zionists years before the British conquest of Palestine, and probably even before the outbreak of WWI itself. Again, I ultimately don't know what happened, but Wickham-Steed’s account of the Young Turks seems to fit consistently with many of the actual events that took place.

I just want to be precise. The Armenian Genocide was conceived and carried out by the Ottoman State and the present government of Turkey bears responsibility for it.

I fully agree. I just want the Armenian people to be cautious not only towards the Turkish state, but also towards Zionists of all national backgrounds. I don’t necessarily want the world to know about Zionist crimes against Armenians, but I sure as hell want fellow Armenians to know about it and to act accordingly.That’s my only agenda in this discussion: To show that Zionists are sworn enemies of the Armenian people on par with Turkey and Azerbaijan.