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  • Re: elegy

    Axel, you have provided great information within a minnimum amount of posts. I would also like to share the contents of a letter which I found recently by searching something in relation to Dr. Nazim, who you mentioned. And interestingly, this letter is available in Kedourie's book which you also mentioned. Its a bit long, but must be read carefully by anyone interested.This is from the British Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, writing to the home office in 1910 (I broke it up into many paragraphs because it was very hard to read as one):


    "[T]his new Freemasonry in Turkey, unlike that of England and America, is in great part secret and political, and information on the subject is only obtainable in strict confidence, while those who betray its political secrets seem to stand in fear of the hand of the Mafia. Some days ago a local Mason who divulged the signs of the craft was actually threatened with being sent before the court-martial, sitting in virtue of our state of siege. [T]he Young Turkey movement in Paris was quite separate from and in great part in ignorance of the inner workings of that in Salonica. The latter town has a population of about 140,000, of whom 80,000 are Spanish J ews, and 20,000 of the sect of Sabetai [Z]evi or Crypto-J ews, who externally profess Islamism. Many of the former have in the past acquired Italian nationality and are Freemasons affiliated to Italian lodges. Nathan, the J ewish Lord Mayor of Rome, is high up in Masonry, and the J ewish Premiers Luzzati and Sonnino, and other J ewish senators and deputies, are also, it appears, Masons. Emannuele Carasso, a J ewish Mason of Salonica, and now deputy for that town in the Ottoman Chamber, founded there a lodge called 'Macedonia Risorta' in connection with Italian Freemasonry. He appears to have induced the Young Turks, officers and civilians, to adopt Freemasonry with a view to exerting an impalpable J ewish influence over the new dispensation in Turkey[.] The inspiration of the movement in Salonica would seem to have been mainly J ewish[.]

    Carasso began to play a big rôle, including his successful capture of the Balkan Committee, and it was noticed that J ews of all colours, native and foreign, were enthusiastic supporters of the new dispensation, till, as a Turk expressed it, every Hebrew seemed to become a potential spy of the occult Committee, and people began to remark that the movement was rather a J ewish than a Turkish revolution. The Italian Government appointed a J ew and Mason called Primo Levi, who was not in the consular career, as consul-general at Salonica, and Oscar Strauss, who, together with Jacob Schiff, had influenced the American J ews in favour of J ewish immigration into Mesopotamia as opposed to other Territorialist plans and as an extended form of Sionism, was appointed American Ambassador here. Carasso was one of the bearers of the message of deposition to Abdul Hamid, who was conveyed to Salonica and confined in the house of the Italian J ewish bankers of the Committee, while a brother of Remzi Bey was set over him as keeper. After the deposition the J ewish papers of Salonica sent up a loud cry of deliverance from 'the oppressor of Israel' who had twice turned a deaf ear to the appeals of Herzl, the Sionist leader, and who, by the imposition of the red passport, like our own Aliens Act, against Polish J ewish immigrants, and otherwise, had thwarted the realisation of the ideals of Sionism in Palestine. The ninth Sionist Congress in December 1909 at Hamburg announced that the divisions in the J ewish world between Territorialists and Sionists, 'as a miracle of the Turkish revolution', had been healed.

    At the same time Javid Bey, Deputy for Salonica, an exceedingly clever and gifted Crypto-J ew and Freemason, was made Minister of Finance, while Talaat Bey, also a Freemason, became Minister of the Interior. Parliament was 'ordered' to pass a very stringent Press Law, and a Salonica Crypto-J ew and Freemason was made 'Directeur du Bureau de la Presse', a post of enormous power, as its holder can suppress a paper for severe 'criticism of the new régime' (dubbed 'reaction'), or have the proprietor or editor court-martialled. A semi-inspired Ottoman telegraph agency was started under the direction of a Baghdad J ew, and an all but successful attempt was made to appoint a Salonica J ewish lawyer and Mason as adviser to the Ministry of Justice. The Constantinople head branch of the Committee of Union and Progress is also run by a Salonica Crypto-J ew and Mason. Another Salonica Crypto-J ew and Freemason made determined attempts to be appointed 'Préfet', i.e. Lord Mayor, of the capital, but has not yet succeeded in his aim, though Prince Said Ha[lim] an Egyptian Freemason, has become Deputy Mayor. [T]he old Ministry of Police was replaced by the 'Sûreté Publique' controlling the police and gendarmerie, and put in charge of a Salonica Freemason. Talaat Bey, the Minister of the Interior, who is of Gipsy descent, and comes from Kirjali, in the Adrianople district, and Javid Bey, the Minister of Finance, who is a Crypto-J ew, are the official manifestations of the occult power of the Committee. They are the only members of the Cabinet who really count, and are also the apex of Freemasonry in Turkey. A Turk described it as a process of 'drugging the latter with J ewish hashish'. From the foregoing or any close inspection of the Young Turkey movement in its present stage, it will appear to be principally J ewish and 'Turkish' as opposed to other Ottoman elements, e.g. Arabs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians, etc.

    It was hoped in the beginning that the Armenians, Bulgarians, Greeks and the Ottoman J ew would serve as economic props, but the Young Turk seems to have allied himself solely with the J ew, Ottoman and foreign, and to have estranged the other races. The same result has been witnessed in Hungary, where the Hungarian, who is of Turkish stock and is similarly devoid of real business instincts, has come under the almost exclusive economic and financial domination of the J ew. [A]s Turkey happens to contain the places sacred to Israel, it is but natural that the J ew should strive to maintain a position of exclusive influence and utilize it for the furtherance of his ideals, viz, the ultimate creation of an autonomous J ewish state in Palestine or Babylonia, as explained by Israel Zangwill in his article in the 'Fortnightly Review' of April. He would kill two birds with one stone if he could obtain from the Turk unrestricted immigration of J ews into Turkey, an aim that he has been pursuing for years back, and transfer to Mesopotamia some millions of his co-religionists in bondage in Russia and Roumania. In return for 'unrestricted immigration' of foreign J ews, he has offered the Young Turk to sacrifice his mother-tongue and replace it by Turkish, and even to take over the whole of the Turkish National Debt.

    Dr. Nazim, one of the most influential members of the Salonica Committee and said to be of J ewish extraction, has, in company, with his fidus Achates, a certain Faik Bey Toledo, a Crypto-J ew of Salonica, visited the Paris branch of the I.C.A. (Judaeo-Colonisation Association) and has since openly advocated importing 200,000 Roumanian J ews into Macedonia and some millions of Russian J ews into Mesopotamia. Doubtless, when Young Turkey with its heavy military expenditure is in need of borrowing, further pressure will be applied by the J ewish lenders. For the 'Aurore' ('Shefak'), a Sionist organ started a year ago in Constantinople, is never tired of reminding its readers that the domination of Egypt, the land of the Pharaohs, who forced the J ews to build the Pyramids, is part of the future heritage of Israel. Mesopotamia and Palestine are, however, only the ultimate goal of the J ews. The immediate end for which they are working is the practically exclusive economic capture of Turkey and new enterprises in that country. [T]hey hold or control all the pivotal points in the machinery of the Young Turkey Government, though the Ministry of Public Works is still held by an Armenian, Halajian Effendi. When his predecessor, another Armenian, was got rid of, a determined attempt was made to appoint a J ew or a J ewish nominee. His position is now still shaky, and the most bitter and constant attacks on him come from a J ewish-financed paper, 'Le Jeune Turc', while there are rumours that his successor will be a J ew, or a Turk with a J ew at his elbow.

    It is obvious that the J ew, who is so vitally interested in maintaining his sole predominance in the councils of the Young Turkey, is equally interested in keeping alive the flames of discord between the Turk and his (the J ew's) possible rivals, i.e. the Armenians, Greeks, etc., while it is to be inferred that he would not be averse to the new regime increasing the national indebtedness to the Hebrew financiers. The J ew hates Russia and its Government[.] The J ew can help the Young Turk with brains, business enterprise, his enormous influence in the press of Europe, and money in return for economic advantages and the eventual realisation of the ideals of Israel[.] The J ew has supplied funds to the Young Turks and has thus acquired a hold on them; but in order to retain this hold he has to appear at least to approve and aid the Young Turk towards the accomplishment of 'national' dreams. Secrecy and elusive methods are essential to both. The Oriental J ew is an adept at manipulating occult forces, and political Freemasonry of the continental type has been chosen as the most effective bond and cloak to conceal the inner workings of the movement. The 'Jeune Turc', which, like some other organs in the Ottoman capital, is subventioned by the J ews[.] But all this is dependent on European, i.e. mainly J ewish, financiers supplying it with the sums required to keep up an army which is disproportionate to its actual state of economic development."

    — Letter from G. Lowther to C. Hardinge 29 May 1910, His Majesty's Stationary Office, Lowther Papers, Foreign Office 800/193A; and see: 800/193B. The complete letter is published in: E. Kedourie, "Young Turks, Freemasons and J ews", Middle Eastern Studies, Volume 7, Number 1, (January, 1971), pp. 89-104; reprinted: E. Kedourie, Arabic Political Memoirs and Other Studies, Chapter 16, Frank Cass, London, (1974), pp. 243-263. For additional correspondence to and from Lowther, see also: British Documents on the Origins of the War, 1898-1914, 11 Volumes in 13, His Majesty's Stationary Office, London, (1927); and the Hardinge Papers and the Grey Papers.
    Last edited by ArmSurvival; 01-06-2010, 06:19 PM.

    Comment


    • Re: elegy

      To ArmSurvival:

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Diranakir
      Then can I express the same doubts about the following passage that you quote (on p. 46, post 679 of Thread) from Joachim Prinz's "The Secret xxxs" ?

      ArmSurvival:
      Someone like Levy, a Zionist who is too malicious to accept that genocide happened, isn’t going to ascribe any sort of connection between the Ottoman government and Zionism, because he knows damn well that many people know the truth of the genocide and would be able to put two and two together. So as a genocide denier, Levy has to cover up and twist around many clues that are indirectly connected to the genocide, such as the J ewish involvement in the CUP, because he knows full well that a genocide took place, but denies it for political/monetary/personal reasons. Levy's deceptive disinformation tactics tie into the broader school of thought in Zionism: Zionists always want to keep the holocaust as a unique event in world history, while simultaneously covering up the crimes of powerful Zionists, in order to play the perpetual victim and justify their barbaric behavior not just in Israel but worldwide.
      ============================================
      Diranakir's Response:

      Here is the quote from Levy again, because I think your comments are
      wildly off the mark. The quote has nothing to do with genocide denial or
      affirmation. It has to do with J ewish support for Turkey, which is very
      clear if you read the history.

      The Quote Once More:

      from "The J ews of the Ottoman Empire", pp. 527-536, Avigdor Levy (ed).

      "....it became clear that on the eve of the World War and during its initial stages, Zionist groups viewed the continued existence of the Ottoman state as most desirable for their future plans in Palestine."

      I frankly think your 'destroy Turkey for the good of the J ewish people'
      model is a big stretch and gets in the way of a more realistic interpretation, which is that J ewish and Turkish nationalism
      were highly compatible and synergistic. That's just the problem.
      On the general question of quoting Zionists: The prize is yours.
      How many times in this discussion have you recommended
      referring to Zionist writers? If you can pick and choose, so can I.


      ===========================================


      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Diranakir
      The short answer to your final question and comment is as you yourself said: it shows heavy Donmeh INVOLVEMENT in the CUP. Are you willing to leave their role at that?

      ArmSurvival:
      If so, we are in agreement.Their involvement is definite and undeniable. What needs to be studied is the extent of their involvement, since they are named by many sources as funding the party, sheltering it, as well as providing the ideological foundation of the party and implementing those ideologies through state action. This wasn’t like having a couple of J ews sitting as members of parliament and voting on taxes or carrying out some menial duties; it was clearly much deeper and more profound than that.

      Diranakir: This I agree with.



      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Diranakir
      If in the Wickham-Steed 'quote' you meant Carasso was looking forward to WWI, you should have said WWI. That 'quote' is the only foundation for your saying that the hebraic members (PLURAL) of the CUP railroaded Turkey into entering the war, whereas it only 'reports' what one man, Carasso, supposedly said. That is not nearly proof of your assertion about how the decision was made for Turkey to enter the war. You simply don't know, and you don't seem to know or care what the other members of the CUP thought about entering the war.
      The quote I used simply serves to make sense out of a couple of seemingly odd events. One of these odd events is the Ottoman entrance into WWI. At the time, it was no secret the Ottoman Empire was in no shape to take on European powers in a total war scenario (even Abdul-Hamid who was a strong domestic figure, had to change some of his domestic policies in order to keep European powers off his back). But what is even odder than the fact they attacked a neutral Russian Empire is the way they chose to attack them: A frontal assault against mountainous Russian positions in the dead winter of December. I don’t care how bad of a commander Enver might have been, ANYONE could have recognized (ESPECIALLY with German military intelligence) that a frontal assault on mountain positions against competant troops in snowy weather is nothing short of suicidal. And if that wasn’t absurd enough for you to doubt the official story, remember this fact: Once Enver's main attacking Ottoman army was completely smashed and losing ground fast to the Russians, with the rest of the Allies closing in on Constantinople and the rest of Turkey, what did Enver do? He raised a new army of 30,000 men and marched, not to defend Turkey (his supposed homeland), but to Baku, and then onward to Tajikistan. Really… Tajikistan? It makes a lot more sense if his military actions were deliberate suicide missions in order to weaken the Ottoman Empire and allow Europeans to conquer the near east. He even fled the bloody scene as fast as he could right after he did his job of destroying the Ottoman war effort. Does any of this prove anything? Maybe, maybe not. But Enver's actions make a lot more sense if you assume that the CUP was deliberately trying to destroy the Ottoman Empire-- As opposed to assuming that a bunch of non-Turks (like Enver) were concerned with Turkey's future, and somehow didn't realize that a frontal assualt on mountainous Russian positions in the middle of winter was a bad idea. Personally, I don't know what the exact truth is, but to me, one story is clearly more plausible than the other.

      Another one of the odd events that the Wickham-Steed quote helps to explain is the fact that the Zionists (who were supposedly neutral or even pro-Ottoman in this whole affair) gained a mandate over Palestine as soon as British troops drove the Ottomans out. They received the mandate before any post-war settlement, and even before WWI itself had ended. And obviously, the mandate by the British was not made in haste; they probably reached an agreement with the Zionists years before the British conquest of Palestine, and probably even before the outbreak of WWI itself. Again, I ultimately don't know what happened, but Wickham-Steed’s account of the Young Turks seems to fit consistently with many of the actual events that took place.

      Comment from Diranakir:

      Here's where you lose me.



      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Diranakir
      I just want to be precise. The Armenian Genocide was conceived and carried out by the Ottoman State and the present government of Turkey bears responsibility for it.
      I fully agree. I just want the Armenian people to be cautious not only towards the Turkish state, but also towards Zionists of all national backgrounds. I don’t necessarily want the world to know about Zionist crimes against Armenians, but I sure as hell want fellow Armenians to know about it and to act accordingly.That’s my only agenda in this discussion: To show that Zionists are sworn enemies of the Armenian people on par with Turkey and Azerbaijan.

      Comment from Diranakir:

      Agreed.
      __________________
      Last edited by Diranakir; 01-07-2010, 08:43 AM.

      Comment


      • Re: elegy

        01/07/10
        **********************************
        ARMENIAN ANTI-SEMITISM
        ************************************************** *
        You may have noticed that some of our anti-Semites prefer to identify themselves as anti-Zionists probably because they know anti-Semitism to be an undeniable prejudice with a long history; whereas anti-Zionism is a recent geopolitical development, and as everyone knows by now, in politics it is legitimate to take sides.
        What these gentlemen ignore is the fact that whenever Israel is mentioned, the number of our pundits on Middle-East politics suddenly goes up dramatically. Armenians who know little or nothing about their own history expect us to believe they know all there is to know about the complexities of the Middle East, on the assumption that their interlocutors must be even more ignorant than they are. These Armenians, it seems, miss the good old days when xxxs allowed themselves to be persecuted and exterminated. What they are against is sh*t-disturbing Zionists who made a mess of things.
        I see parallels here between what our anti-Zionists think of xxxs and what Turks thought of Armenians at the turn of the last century.
        “When Armenians were loyal subjects of the Ottoman Empire – when, that is, they allowed us to fornicate with their daughters and to conscript their boys to fight and die in defense of the Empire -- we had nothing against them. We got along just fine. But then, some politically ambitious whipper-snappers had the temerity to make territorial demands on us. Don't blame us for what happened. Blame these greedy and ungrateful bastards who did not appreciate enough the protection, prosperity and all the freedoms they enjoyed in the Empire. We are not prejudiced. Never were. We are not racists. We love everyone and hate no one. But justice is justice and the law is the law.”
        #

        Comment


        • Re: elegy

          Quote from ArmSurvival:

          (from Diranakir)
          I just want to be precise. The Armenian Genocide was conceived and carried out by the Ottoman State and the present government of Turkey bears responsibility for it.

          (ArmSurvival's Response)
          I fully agree. I just want the Armenian people to be cautious not only towards the Turkish state, but also towards Zionists of all national backgrounds. I don’t necessarily want the world to know about Zionist crimes against Armenians, but I sure as hell want fellow Armenians to know about it and to act accordingly.That’s my only agenda in this discussion: To show that Zionists are sworn enemies of the Armenian people on par with Turkey and Azerbaijan.

          Response from Diranakir: "Agreed".

          Retraction from Diranakir:

          I should have deleted the last sentence from the quote from ArmSurvival. I am not prepared to go that far. Historically it is clear to me that Zionism, call it J ewish
          nationalism, was diametrically opposed to Armenian nationalism/aspirations/well-being--call it what you will--before and during WWI and contributed to the elimination of Armenians from their ancestral homeland. I refuse to stigmatize J ewish people in general for what happened. That would be a huge mistake both morally and factually.
          But the results of my research make it very clear that no one has the right to lecture
          Armenians from any supposed moral high-ground for their "preoccupation" with their
          "petty" nationalism or their concern about the Great Crime committed against them by the inconceivably brutal Turkish state.
          Last edited by Diranakir; 01-25-2010, 07:56 PM.

          Comment


          • Re: elegy

            01/08/10
            **********************************
            SHISH-KEBAB
            ************************************************** *
            Freedom of speech means
            the freedom of breaking taboos,
            casting down idols,
            and shish-kebabing sacred cows.
            We are denied the fundamental human right of free speech
            because, when sacred cows are in charge,
            the first thing they do is
            to criminalize the consumption of shish-kebab
            and to legitimize the practice of cannibalism.
            *
            The more ignorant the speaker,
            the more dogmatic his pronouncements.

            *
            Armenians argue not to reach a consensus
            by means of compromise
            but to settle a score with the Turks.
            *
            OUR TRAGEDY
            *************************
            After a fatal accident, they never say,
            “Had I driven more defensively,
            my family would be alive today.”
            What they say and repeat is,
            “It was the other's fault.
            He is the guilty one!”
            #

            Comment


            • Re: elegy

              Originally posted by Diranakir
              Here is the quote from Levy again, because I think your comments are
              wildly off the mark. The quote has nothing to do with genocide denial or
              affirmation. It has to do with J ewish support for Turkey, which is very
              clear if you read the history.

              The Quote Once More:

              from "The J ews of the Ottoman Empire", pp. 527-536, Avigdor Levy (ed).

              "....it became clear that on the eve of the World War and during its initial stages, Zionist groups viewed the continued existence of the Ottoman state as most desirable for their future plans in Palestine."
              I don’t think you understood me. My point is that someone who is a genocide denier, by definition, is a manipulator of history. His manipulations do not end with the denial of the genocide… He is well aware that most people know the truth about the genocide; therefore he would want to disconnect the Zionists from the rumors of their negative role in Ottoman history. If he had implied that Zionists preferred to destroy the Ottoman Empire by letting the British invade (which is probably why they received a mandate for Palestine), it would be a huge help to people like me who are showing the connection between the genocide and Zionism. So Levy’s agenda of manipulating Ottoman history does not end with denial of the Armenian genocide, but extends to all related knowledge of the genocide (such as the CUP’s Zionist makeup, which is WIDELY documented).



              Originally posted by Diranakir
              I frankly think your 'destroy Turkey for the good of the J ewish people'
              model is a big stretch and gets in the way of a more realistic interpretation, which is that J ewish and Turkish nationalism
              were highly compatible and synergistic. That's just the problem.
              Being compatible or not does not absolve the guilt of Zionism in the destruction of Armenia. And I still don’t see how bankrupting and shattering the Ottoman Empire by antagonizing and attacking European powers was in the Turks’ interests. The CUP bankrupted and shattered the empire, and even most Turks will agree with this.



              Originally posted by Diranakir
              On the general question of quoting Zionists: The prize is yours.
              How many times in this discussion have you recommended
              referring to Zionist writers? If you can pick and choose, so can I
              I have referred to Zionist writers who have admitted the Zionist hand in the CUP, therefore what they say is a significant admission of guilt (they don’t explicitly say that Zionists helped plan and carry out the genocide, but if they admit they were in the CUP then it’s a no-brainer). My Zionist quotes provide an admission of guilt from the accused party, that’s why they are of importance.

              On the other hand, the Zionist writer you quoted is denying any idea that Zionists were trying to destroy the Ottomans, which is nothing but hot air which even contradicts Zionist literature, therefore Levy has no evidence to back up his statement. In contrast, Zionists who indirectly admitted Zionism’s guilt in the genocide are being consistent with both Zionist and non-Zionist sources.



              Originally posted by Diranakir
              Here's where you lose me.
              I didn’t expect you to jump on board with that one. But how else could you explain Enver’s actions? Are we simply to believe he was a complete idiot who didn’t have any common sense? “Lets attack steep mountainous positions with a frontal assault in several feet of snow guys, I’m sure we’ll be fine.” I have a very hard time believing this. And when his idea obviously failed, he thought “Well, Turkey is under heavy attack from the Allies and we are losing ground fast, so I’m going to raise an army and march to Baku and then to Tajikistan”. And this makes sense to you?



              Originally posted by Diranakir
              I should have deleted the last sentence from the quote from ArmSurvival. I am not prepared to go that far. Historically it is clear to me that Zionism, call it J ewish nationalism, was diametrically opposed to Armenian nationalism/aspirations/well-being--call it what you will--before and during WWI and contributed to the elimination of Armenians from their ancestral homeland. I refuse to stigmatize J ewish people in general for what happened. That would be a huge mistake both morally and factually.
              But the results of my research make it very clear that no one has the right to lecture
              Armenians from any supposed moral high-ground for their "preoccupation" with their
              "petty" nationalism or their concern about the Great Crime committed against them by the inconceivably brutal Turkish state.
              Wow… Its interesting that Ara made you retract your agreement with me through guilt by labeling us “Anti-Semite”. Not with facts or rational arguments, but with misplaced guilt. Guilt is the tactic of propagandists and missionaries who know more about sophistry than they do about reality.

              Let me tell you where you and Ara are making unfounded assumptions: Zionism is not J ewish nationalism, and criticism of Zionism does not mean criticism of J ews, many of whom are opposed to Zionism. First, let us examine what nationalism is based on. Nationalism stems from a group of people who have all or most of the following characteristics:

              1. Common Land --- J ews were dispersed throughout the world, with less than 0.1% of them living in Palestine until very recently. They were free for thousands of years (most notably during Hellenic and Ottoman times) to move to Palestine, yet most of them chose to live in Constantinople, Alexandria, Rome, etc. Therefore, they had no common land, and more importantly, they had no yearning to live in Palestine as evidenced by their migration patterns in the last 2,000 years.

              2. Common Language --- Most J ews did not speak Hebrew prior to 1948 (including virtually all the Zionist leaders), which means they had no common language when Israel was created. If you had to choose a national language for J ews prior to 1948, it was Russian. Case in point: If you visit Israel today, the J ewish neighborhoods are broken up into linguistic enclaves in which they still speak Russian, Hungarian, Polish, German, English, etc. Basically, the mother tongue of J ews is different depending on what country their ancestors hail from.

              3. Common History --- J ews in Egypt have a different history than J ews in Italy, who had a different history than J ews in Russia, who had a different history than J ews in India, who had a different history than J ews in England, and on and on it goes. Without common land or common language, there is no common history.

              4. Common Religion --- Contrary to mainstream beliefs about Israel, most of their population are atheist or agnostic. Even the vast majority of Zionist leaders, including Herzl, did NOT believe in Judaism, but were atheists. Zionists don’t have a common religion, because most of them don’t follow a religion in the first place.

              5. Common genetic makeup --- With no common land and no common history, J ews have naturally been mixed in their host countries for thousands of years. There is also the fact that most J ews today are descended from non-Semitic convert populations. If we HAD to choose a common genetic makeup for J ews, it would be Slavic. Yes, Slavic. Only a tiny minority of J ews are actually Semitic. Most Israelis today are descended from European converts and therefore have no business in the Near East.

              So how were J ews a nation prior to 1948? I’ve made this same criticism and asked this same question to hard-line Zionists on some other boards, and they pretended I never addressed the question. That’s because they can’t argue against facts, and must resort to primitive tactics like making you feel guilty about addressing the truth. Labeling me an anti-Semite for being opposed to Zionism is equivalent to calling someone an anti-American just because they oppose the Neo-Conservative movement. Well in that case, most Americans are anti-American and most J ews are anti-Semites.

              Comment


              • Re: elegy

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Diranakir
                Here is the quote from Levy again, because I think your comments are
                wildly off the mark. The quote has nothing to do with genocide denial or
                affirmation. It has to do with J ewish support for Turkey, which is very
                clear if you read the history.

                The Quote Once More:

                from "The J ews of the Ottoman Empire", pp. 527-536, Avigdor Levy (ed).

                "....it became clear that on the eve of the World War and during its initial stages, Zionist groups viewed the continued existence of the Ottoman state as most desirable for their future plans in Palestine."

                I don’t think you understood me. My point is that someone who is a genocide denier, by definition, is a manipulator of history. His manipulations do not end with the denial of the genocide… He is well aware that most people know the truth about the genocide; therefore he would want to disconnect the Zionists from the rumors of their negative role in Ottoman history. If he had implied that Zionists preferred to destroy the Ottoman Empire by letting the British invade (which is probably why they received a mandate for Palestine), it would be a huge help to people like me who are showing the connection between the genocide and Zionism. So Levy’s agenda of manipulating Ottoman history does not end with denial of the Armenian genocide, but extends to all related knowledge of the genocide (such as the CUP’s Zionist makeup, which is WIDELY documented).

                Diranakir:
                Your response makes no sense and once more begs the question by having all your assumptions built into it without proving any of them. Aren't all the other Zionists you quote genocide deniers? Aren't they 'manipulators' of history too? Or are you the only one qualified to read their writing without being misled, armed with your 'destruction of Turkey' model? Is it not enough that Zionism supported Turkey through thick and thin, including during the genocide? Why was it "Zionist" to destroy Turkey but not "Zionist" to back Turkey when there was a prospect of Turkish victory and even greater advantages for Zionism?



                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Diranakir
                I frankly think your 'destroy Turkey for the good of the J ewish people'
                model is a big stretch and gets in the way of a more realistic interpretation, which is that J ewish and Turkish nationalism
                were highly compatible and synergistic. That's just the problem.


                ArmSurvival:
                Being compatible or not does not absolve the guilt of Zionism in the destruction of Armenia. And I still don’t see how bankrupting and shattering the Ottoman Empire by antagonizing and attacking European powers was in the Turks’ interests. The CUP bankrupted and shattered the empire, and even most Turks will agree with this.

                Diranakir: Your language here is unfocused and leads nowhere-- talk about someone not understanding. You completely fail to get my point. It's useless trying to explain any further. It's a matter of your blind spot.



                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Diranakir
                On the general question of quoting Zionists: The prize is yours.
                How many times in this discussion have you recommended
                referring to Zionist writers? If you can pick and choose, so can I.

                ArmSurvival:
                I have referred to Zionist writers who have admitted the Zionist hand in the CUP, therefore what they say is a significant admission of guilt (they don’t explicitly say that Zionists helped plan and carry out the genocide, but if they admit they were in the CUP then it’s a no-brainer). My Zionist quotes provide an admission of guilt from the accused party, that’s why they are of importance.

                On the other hand, the Zionist writer you quoted is denying any idea that Zionists were trying to destroy the Ottomans, which is nothing but hot air which even contradicts Zionist literature, therefore Levy has no evidence to back up his statement. In contrast, Zionists who indirectly admitted Zionism’s guilt in the genocide are being consistent with both Zionist and non-Zionist sources.

                Diranakir:

                The "Zionist writer I quoted" is simply stating the obvious. You have the monopoly on hot air. Your mind is made up and you try to fit everything into your model, with very poor results.



                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Diranakir
                Here's where you lose me.

                ArmSurvival:
                I didn’t expect you to jump on board with that one. But how else could you explain Enver’s actions? Are we simply to believe he was a complete idiot who didn’t have any common sense? “Lets attack steep mountainous positions with a frontal assault in several feet of snow guys, I’m sure we’ll be fine.” I have a very hard time believing this. And when his idea obviously failed, he thought “Well, Turkey is under heavy attack from the Allies and we are losing ground fast, so I’m going to raise an army and march to Baku and then to Tajikistan”. And this makes sense to you?

                Diranakir:

                Yes. Then he said to himself, "Why don't I go and get killed in the steppes of Asia?"



                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Diranakir
                I should have deleted the last sentence from the quote from ArmSurvival. I am not prepared to go that far. Historically it is clear to me that Zionism, call it J ewish nationalism, was diametrically opposed to Armenian nationalism/aspirations/well-being--call it what you will--before and during WWI and contributed to the elimination of Armenians from their ancestral homeland. I refuse to stigmatize J ewish people in general for what happened. That would be a huge mistake both morally and factually.
                But the results of my research make it very clear that no one has the right to lecture Armenians from any supposed moral high-ground for their "preoccupation" with their "petty" nationalism or their concern about the Great Crime committed against them by the inconceivably brutal Turkish state.

                ArmSurvival:
                Wow… Its interesting that Ara made you retract your agreement with me through guilt by labeling us “Anti-Semite”. Not with facts or rational arguments, but with misplaced guilt. Guilt is the tactic of propagandists and missionaries who know more about sophistry than they do about reality.

                Let me tell you where you and Ara are making unfounded assumptions: Zionism is not J ewish nationalism, and criticism of Zionism does not mean criticism of J ews, many of whom are opposed to Zionism.

                ===============================================

                Diranakir:

                Pardon me if I ignore your term paper on nationalism. If that is an issue I'll consult specialists in the field. I simply think it is correct to call Zionism J ewish nationalism and I'll leave it at that. I don't have the time to squabble about it.

                But now on guilt tripping, Anti-Semitism, and so on: Yes, Ara influenced me. He made me reconsider your final sentence and how much I wanted to be associated with it. I don't like the "Zionism as the sworn enemy of Armenians" bit. As usual, you go beyond the bounds. You put too fine a point on things and render them grotesque. It's a matter of tone, as I've said before. I'm not as sure as you that "criticism of Zionism does not mean criticism of J ews". It COULD mean criticism of J ews, especially if that criticism is expressed in an extremely hostile tone ("bunch of J ews"). Attacking Zionism COULD be a coded way of attacking all J ews, rather than addressing specific issues, areas, or eras of operation. In sum, I don't think it's as easy to separate Zionist J ews from non-Zionist J ews as separating sheep from goats. After all, many J ews may have mixed feelings about that as an issue in their identity.

                You refer to my 'agreeing with you'. Where I 'agree' with you is in regard to Dönme/J ewish complicity in the genocidal plans of the CUP, which as you know came as a big shock to me. This is something I owe to your steadfast defense of your theories, which made me look deeper and deeper into the literature on the subject, a process that I'm still in the middle of. But I don't agree with your assertion that the Armenian Genocide was a Zionist plot and that the goal was to destroy Turkey along with the Armenians for the greater good of Zionism.

                Comment


                • Re: elegy

                  01/09/10
                  *************************
                  OIL
                  ************************************************** *
                  No one gives a damn about Muslims -- not even Muslims.
                  What they really care about is the oil.
                  As for us: Now, you tell me,
                  why should anyone give a damn?
                  Our cognac?
                  I have tasted it.
                  It tastes like arsenic.
                  If visiting diplomats and foreign statesmen say they like it,
                  it may be because they are compulsive liars.
                  Either that or they have no taste.
                  And the only reason some of them are willing to acknowledge our existence
                  is that we stand between them and Azeri oil.
                  As for members of the European Union
                  willing to acknowledge the reality of our genocide:
                  they do so because they need a reason to justify their anti-Turkish stance.
                  On the day Turkey becomes an economically self-sufficient and viable state,
                  they will open their arms to them.
                  They may even drop their pants and bend over.
                  That's politics for you.
                  That's taking care of numero uno
                  and to hell with truth, justice, human rights, and morality.
                  There is a lesson for us here.
                  Since no one gives a damn,
                  we have no choice but to rely on one another.
                  Amen.
                  #

                  Comment


                  • Re: elegy

                    [QUOTE=arabaliozian;288318]01/06/10
                    **********************************
                    FRAGMENTS / IV
                    ************************************************** *
                    . . . . a failed state like Iran. . . .with little history of central government control


                    Earth to Ara: Are you kidding? ? ? ?

                    Comment


                    • Re: elegy

                      01/10/10
                      *************************
                      VOODOO
                      ************************************************** *
                      Every branch of learning and activity
                      has its voodoo counterpart.
                      There is voodoo economics,
                      voodoo medicine,
                      and voodoo history.
                      Conspiracy theories belong to the voodoo branch of history.
                      So does anti-Semitism – sorry! I meant to say anti-Zionism.
                      There is a conspiracy theory that says
                      xxxx Cheney directed the Mossad
                      to bring down the World Trade Center.
                      There is another conspiracy theory that says
                      the Young Turks were xxxs
                      or puppets of xxxs,
                      or student of xxxs.
                      There is another one,
                      which happens to be a favorite of mine, that says
                      the serpent in the Garden of Eden
                      was a CIA agent in disguise.
                      Conspiracy theories attract lunatics
                      as surely as sh*t attracts flies.
                      Our Turcocentric ghazetajis pretend to know
                      all there is to know about Turks
                      and our anti-Semites expect us to believe
                      they know more about xxxs than most xxxs.
                      Our dime-a-dozen pundits, speechifiers,
                      and sermonizers, and activists are
                      past masters of voodoo.
                      Where solidarity is essential, they divide.
                      Where honesty is a must,
                      they engage in charlatanism.
                      Where free speech and dialogue are required,
                      they are dead set against both.
                      And when things go wrong,
                      our voodoo pundits explain it
                      by pointing their finger on alien agencies.
                      That may explain why
                      we have been going backward instead of forward;
                      and even as we advance towards the abyss,
                      we are brainwashed to brag
                      about our genius for survival.
                      Figure that one out,
                      if you can – and please, no voodoo!
                      #

                      Comment

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