Liberation of Western Armenia

[Armenian]

Christianity in Kurdistan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mXS3UQZ1vE

Jesus loves us, the Kurds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djR3Y...-of-kurds.html

Yerevan Kurd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ7bZCK67iU

And from France24: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1

And from Yerkir: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

Hamshen: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

[Armenian]

As long as Armenia remains insignificant - tiny and landlocked - Armenia will be always be a nation asking major powers for mercy. As a result, Armenia will always be vulnerable and unstable. I'm not advocating 'war' with anyone, however, we Armenians need to think in the long-term. We need to set the foundations of a more powerful nation. And we need to realize that if we want to be taken seriously by the powers that be, we need to show them that we as a nation impact regional poitics and economy. Within this context, many within our community will be our worst obstacles, not the Turks.

A prosperous Armenia is not within the long term interest of the Turkish nation - simply because we Armenians want lands and reparations. No self-respecting Turk is going to willingly give away strategic lands to us Armenians. Trust me on that. Moreover, the Turks will not give us reparations because it would ruin their already small bank accounts. Moreover, giving us lands or reparations is a Pandora's box for them. Once they do it for us, it will be Assyrians, Kurds and Greeks, Cypriots lining up next.

However, the biggest fear Armenian nationalists should have is the massive economic and demographic size of Turkey. Theoretically, if the Republic of Armenia engages in open trade, and all is civil between us and the Turks, there is a great danger that the Republic of Armenia, as small and as isolated as it is, will become desperately dependent on Turkey for survival. This is the biggest long term fear that Armenia has with regards to open trade with Turkey.

I personally feel that we can not have official relations with Turkey as long as we have national demands. And, as far as I am concerned, the Armenian diaspora has demands and the Armenian Republic has demands as well, although for diplomatic reasons it will not be discussed. Moreover, I really don't see any substantial benefits for Armenia by having open borders with Turkey. Turkey produces cheap goods, nothing else. Armenia needs to concentrate on better relations with Iran, Russia and the EU. At the very least, we know that our national existence is actually within the national interests of the aforementioned.

The Turkish border is the longest, therefore, simplest, cheapest and quickest route for transporting goods. The Armenian-Georgian border is short, unstable and under-developed. The Armenian-Iranian border is tiny and Iran has serious long-term geo-political problems. Under these circumstances, the worst thing that can happen to Armenia is to have open borders and normal relations with Turks. Since we have no other stable trading partners, Turks can economically overwhelm us within a very short period of time. And once your main source of income is placed within the hands of the enemy - kiss your national interests goodbye. I am surprised more Armenians have not been able to see the long term risks in establishing normal relations with Ankara. However, I suspect that many serious political organization within Armenia and the Diaspora, especially the ARF, do see the long-term risks with having open borders with Turkey.

It is very troubling for me that we Armenians have simply forgotten that Turkey was ready to invade Armenia in 1993. This was in '1993' not in 1905 or 1918 or 1921. This was in our life time. And it was not the Ottomans, nor was it the Young Turks, it was the modern 'civilized' Turk that attempted to invade. Rest assured, power-brokers in Turkey hate us and they fear us, they would love for us to simply disappear. If is was not for the South Caucasus military command of the Russian Army at the time, Yerevan today would most probably have been a Turkish occupied city.

In short: Armenia today serves the geo-political interest of Iran and Russia and to a lesser extent the European Union. However, Armenia does not serve the long-term interests of Turkey. Obviously, a prosperous Armenia does not serve the long-term interests of Azerbaijan. And, unfortunately, a prosperous Armenia does not serve the long-term interests of the leadership within Georgia. As far as the Americans are concerned, they are in the region today, and gone tomorrow - when their 'interests' disappear. When it comes to our national issues we obviously can't trust the political establishment within Washington DC.

We Armenians need to concentrate on building closer economic and political relations with Russians, Iranians, the EU, India, China and the Arab world. Let's hope the winds of war in Iran passes soon. Let's hope Georgia gets 'liberated' by Russia. Let's hope the Armenian-Turkish border remains closed. Armenian will do well looking north and south. As a matter of fact, much to the disappointment of Ankara and Washington DC, the Armenian economy has been doing relatively well doing just that.

I reiterate:

In the short term, opening the Armenian-Turkish borders will only serve the interests of select few 'businessmen,' low wage migrant laborers and freelance prostitutes. Open borders may also in the short term lower the costs of certain imported goods into Armenia. At the same time, however, open borders in the 'long-term' means risking economic dependency on a nation that is essentially your enemy. What's more, we may also have an influx of thousands of uneducated Kurdish laborers pouring into Armenia as well.

As a result, what justice, what reparations, what lands, can we Armenians speak of when we are engaged in such 'healthy' economic relations with those who we claim were responsible for the murder of two million Armenians and the destruction of 90% of our historic lands. What's more, although we don't have a 'foreigner' problem within our society today, what will happen to our small republic when thousands of poor Anatolian Turks and Kurds begin pouring into Armenia for economic reasons?

The thing to remember is that Turkey and Azerbaijan are Armenia's most 'convenient routes for economic trade. Once Armenian trade begins to flow through Turkey and Azerbaijan, Armenia, being as small and as isolated as it is, will become dangerously dependent upon Ankara and Baku. Once we get into that 'Turkic' economic partnership Armenia as we know it will simply disappear. In other words, once you put your national interests firmly in the hands of corrupt businessmen - forget about national interests.

Some people say: What if Turkey did 'this or did that' to reconcile with Armenians. Can't we trade with them then?

I say: By the time Turkey did what they need to do in order to reconcile with Armenians - the nation of Turkey as we know it won't exist.

As far as I know no self-respecting Turk is willing to give us a sincere apology, nor will they give us appropriate reparations, one that must run into many billions of US dollars, and nor will they give us a healthy portion of eastern Turkey. Thus, do you really think Ankara will have good economic intentions, let alone any other good intentions towards Armenia? Therefore, don't count on Turkey apologizing and don't count on them giving reparation or lands. As a result, we don't need the borders open for reasons of our national interests.

Personally, I would 'not' want to see 'friendly' relations with Turks under such conditions.

Armenian

[Armenian]

WILSONIAN ARMENIA

Remembering Woodrow: “Wilson Month” reflected on US president’s lobby for Armenia

“I realize that I’m calling on Congress to make a very serious choice . . . Our recognition of Armenia’s independence will mean true freedom and guaranteed happiness for its people...”

One of the politicians most respected by the Armenian people, 28th president of the United States Woodrow Wilson signed under these words in his speech to the U.S. Congress in May 1920. In November 2006, different establishments of the republic marked the 150th birthday anniversary of the great humanist and Nobel Peace Prize winner.

“The pages of Armenian history do not remember any other such influential politician on the world scale as Wilson who would assert Armenia’s interests in the world arena with such adherence to principles and dedication,” Dean of the Department of Law at the American University of Armenia (AUA), Professor Tom Samuelian said on November 3. That day marked the start of the Wilson Days in Armenia. Dean of the AUA Department of Political Science and International Relations Lusig Danielian and doctor of political science Armen Ayvazyan also made reports.

Woodrow Wilson’s proposal concerning the definition of the border between Armenia and Turkey according to the decision of the San Remo conference and the Sevre Peace Treaty (August 1920) is called in diplomacy “Wilson’s Arbitration Regime”. Under the Sevre Treaty the signatories agreed to leave it to the U.S. discretion to define the border between Armenia and Turkey with Armenia’s ensured gateway to the Black Sea. On November 22, 1920, at the suggestion of Woodrow Wilson it was decided to draw the Armenian-Turkish border through Van, Bitlis and Mush and farther through Yerznka to provide Armenia with a convenient gateway to the Black Sea. The U.S. president himself signed off on this map of Armenia.

“Wilson’s Arbitration Regime” – the declaration of the new Armenian statehood, Western Armenia, on the ruins of the collapsed Ottoman Empire – was not translated into reality as republican Turkey of Mustafa Kemal together with Bolshevist Russia waged persevering struggle against the items of the Sevre Treaty and imposed a war on Armenia as a result of which the government of the First Armenian (Eastern) Republic was overthrown and a Soviet regime was established in the country. In the same year of 1920, the authorities of Armenia signed the Alexandropol Agreement and renounced the points of the Sevre Treaty.

However, different interpretations then appeared also among the Antanta allies. In particular, still on April 29, 1920, British Prime Minister D. Lloyd George, speaking at the House of Commons, said: “... As for Armenia, it proved to be a problem of extreme difficulty. The difficulty – and hardly need to say it to the friends of Armenia – is connected with the circumstance that there is no Armenian population in some of the vast areas which we wanted to hand over to Armenia and for getting which Armenia has historical reasons. But if they are transferred to Armenia, who will realize our decisions?” Later he would confess: “Oil outweighed the blood of Armenians.”

“Wilson Month” in Armenia was marked also by another event. In November, Armenia’s former ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary to Canada Ara Papian declared that there are all preconditions for the establishment of legal protectorate over the historical Armenian lands situated in the territory of modern-day Turkey. As he said, the Armenian side should turn to the judicial instances of the United Nations.

“Our country should seek recognition of the validity of the Sevre Treaty, as only this document was signed by the authorities during the period when Armenia still was an entity of international law,” Papian said. “If Armenia’s legal protectorate over a part of the territory of modern Turkey gains international recognition, then it will be possible to get the right of use of the transit ways situated in the territory of historical Armenia and also sue British Petroleum for the construction of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline without coordination with the Republic of Armenia.”

“Ara Papian’s approach is quite realistic,” Giro Manoyan, a senior member of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation Bureau in charge of the “Armenian Cause”, said, supporting the opinion of Armenia’s ex ambassador. “According to clause 89 of the Sevre Treaty, the right to draw a border between Armenia and Turkey was given to U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, and he allocated a territory of 160,000 square kilometers to Armenia,” Manoyan reminded.

Official Yerevan does not yet have a common state approach to this matter in its diplomatic arsenal. On April 18, 2005, Armenia’s Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanian stated: “The issue of the international recognition of the Genocide was and still remains on Armenia’s foreign policy agenda. I don’t know whether the next president of Armenia will raise the territorial issue. Let the next head of Armenian state speak about subsequent claims.”

The position of Armenian President Robert Kocharyan is interesting in this sense. Speaking on the same subject, as a rule he notes: “The question of the recognition of the Genocide and the question of territorial claims are two different problems and have no direct relations to each other. The question of territorial claims to Turkey should be regarded not in the aspect of Turkey’s recognizing the Genocide, but within the framework of the Sevre Peace Treaty.”

Source: http://www.armenianow.com/?action=vi...SSID=0f2c6b8e1

[Armenian]

GIRO MANOYAN: WE MUST MAKE NOT ONLY MORAL, BUT ALSO TERRITORIAL DEMANDS OF TURKEY

Currently the matter is not so much in recognizing the Armenian Genocide, as recognizing the responsibility of the Turkish government for that crime,” “Hay Dat” office head Giro Manoyan stated to a press conference in Yerevan. He said, Today Turkey tries to increase his value both for the U.S. and the European community. “Armenia’s foreign policy is clear and right in this connection: we do not put preconditions and are sure the opening of borders must not be connected with the Armenian Genocide, though ARF Dashnaktsutyun thinks if someone has the right for preconditions, it is Armenia and not Turkey. Nevertheless, I am sure our government is on the right way,” Manoyan stressed. He also added ARF Dashnaktsutyun thinks it necessary to make not only moral, but also territorial demands of Turkey. “Turkey has problems with all his neighbors – with Armenia, Greece, Iraq. Sooner or later all those demands will be made,” the “Hay Dat” office head said.

Source: http://www.armtown.com/news/en/pan/20070423/21990/

Armenian Tashnak Party: 'Armenian territories' will come off Turkey sooner or later

Armenian Tashnak Party claimed that the eastern and south-eastern provinces of Turkey will come off Turkey, Armenian Yerkir reported. Kiro Manoyan, ARF Bureau’s Hay Dat and Political Affairs Office Director, by naming the Eastern provinces of Turkey as 'Western Armenia', said "Armenians should be ready to take back what belongs to them". Armenian Tashnak Party also supports the Kurdish separatist terrorism in Turkey. Almost 20 percent of Azerbaijani territories have been under Armenian occupation for about 16 years. Armenian nationalists also claim the south-eastern part of Georgia as part of motherland Armenia. Armenian Constitution does not recognise Turkey's national borders. As Armenia repeats its irredentist claims over Turkish and other neighbouring territories, Turkey closed its Armenian border to protest Armenian aggressive policies.

Source: http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=50631#

[Armenian]

Woodrow Wilson’s arbitration award important for Russia

Armenian Historian And Diplomat Ara Papian

“Russia should understand that realization of Woodrow Wilson’s arbitration award is very important, since it meets all security demands in the South Caucasus. It’s high time to come to decision,” historian and diplomat Ara Papian said in an interview with PanARMENIAN.Net. “The Russian power is divided in two groups. One wants close relationship with Turkey proceeding from personal profit, the other upholds security issues in the light of Turkish nationalism. Actually, if the international community understands that the time to recognize the arbitration award has come, it will be to interest of Russia, Armenia and even Iran,” he said. “Interest in the decision is being observed, since it could become an extra tool of pressure on Turkey. According to the Treaty of Sevres, military monitoring units should be deployed in Turkey and this could deprive the latter of the possibility to uncontrolledly build up arms,” he said.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=24188

No one canceled Sevr Treaty on Armenia

After conclusion of the Sevr Treaty on August 10, 1920 borders with independent Armenia had to be set by a neutral mediator – the United States. In this view, representatives of UK, France and Italy appealed to U.S. President Woodrow Wilson for an arbitration award on the Armenian-Turkish border. Mr Wilson outlined Armenia’s territory of 110 square km,” Ara Papyan, orientalist, specialist in international law and Armenia’s former Ambassador to Canada told a news conference in Yerevan. “The arbitration award on the Armenian-Turkish border is an international agreement which is not subject to appeal and restriction of time. The big Parisian Four addressed a joint note to the U.S. President in order to determine Armenian and Turkish borders on the territory of Van, Bitlis, Erzrum and Trapezund,” Papyan said.

The fate of the arbitration award is not bound with the ratification of the Sevr treaty, according to him. “Westerman’s committee responsible for determination of borders was formed in the U.S. Congress. The map and award affixed by the state seal marking the significance of the documents are kept in the U.S. Congress Library. Another committee dealing with the demarcation of borders at the site was headed by Henry Morgenthau, the U.S. Ambassador to Turkey in the times of the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman Empire,” the Armenian diplomat said. However, Papyan noted, November 29 the 11th Red Army entered Armenia and the First Republic stopped existence as an international element. “That is why the conditions of the Sevr and Lausanne treaties were not fulfilled. The USSR was not the assignee of the Republic of Armenia,” he said.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/arm/?nid=22212

De jure Boundary between Turkey and Armenia: as Determined by Woodrow Wilson, President of the United States of America

By Ara A. Papian

No other single issue has aroused so much passion and controversy and occupied the attention of the present Armenian public and political life as the relationship with Turkey. The lawful claims of Armenians for moral satisfaction, financial indemnification and territorial readjustment, remain the longest, most intractable, and potentially one of the most dangerous unsolved problems of international relations and world community of the modern times.

The emergence of the Armenian state – the Republic of Armenia, and its presence on the world political stage as the successor of the first Armenian Republic (1918-1920), adds a critical dimension to the matter. The importance of the new dimension is based on the fact that as a subject of international law the Republic of Armenia is in full power and has all legal rights to pursue the implementation of the legal instruments and to insist on the fulfillment of international obligations assumed by the Turkish states – the Republic of Turkey or the Ottoman Empire, as a legal predecessor of the Turkish Republic.

It is therefore imperative to analyze all relevant legal instruments, i.e. bilateral and multilateral treaties, Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitral Award (November 22, 1920), diplomatic documents and international papers, resolutions of international organizations, recommendations of special missions, decisions of law-determining agencies (particularly of the International Court of Justice), the opinions of authoritative institutions, etc. to clarify the legal state of Armenian-Turkish confrontation and determinate the legal aspects of the Armenian claims regarding Turkey.

Due to final and binding character of the arbitral awards it seems the most appropriate to begin the elaboration of the legal instruments with the arbitral award of the President of the United States of America Woodrow Wilson (November 22, 1920): “Decision of the President of the United States of America respecting the Frontier between Turkey and Armenia, Access for Armenia to the Sea, and the Demilitarization of Turkish Territory adjacent to the Armenian Frontier.”


1. Arbitration as a procedure for peaceful settlement of disputes between the States Arbitration exists under both domestic and international law, and arbitration can be carried out between private individuals, between states, or between states and private individuals. Arbitration, in the law, is a legal alternative to the courts whereby the parties to a dispute agree to submit their respective positions (through agreement or hearing) to a neutral third party - the arbitrator(s) for resolution.

International Public Arbitration (hereafter- Arbitration) is an effective legal procedure for dispute settlement between the states . According to 1953 report of the International Law Commission arbitration is a procedure for the settlement of disputes between States by a binding award on the basis of law and as a result of an undertaking voluntary accepted .The essential elements of Arbitration consist in – (1) An agreement on the part of States having a matter, or several matters, in dispute, to refer the decision of them to a tribunal, believed to be impartial, and constituted in such a way as the terms of the agreement specify, and to abide by its judgment; and in – (2) Consent on the part of the person, persons, or states, nominated for the tribunal, to conduct the inquiry and to deliver judgment.

Arbitration has been practiced already in antiquity and in the middle ages. The history of modern arbitration is usually considered to begin with the treaty of arbitration between Great Britain and the United States of 1794 , /Jay’s Treaty - Treaty of Amity, Commerce and Navigation, between His Britannic Majesty and the United States of America, by their President, Signed on November 19, 1794, ratified on June 24, 1795/. The rules of arbitration were codified by The Hague Convention for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes, concluded on July 29th, 1899, and very slightly amended in the Convention of the same name concluded October 18th, 1907 (entered into force January 26, 1910). The Hague Convention [Article 15 of 1899 and article 37 of 1907] defines the international arbitration as: “the settlement of disputes between States by judges of their own choice and on the basis of respect of law”.
The Covenant of the League of Nations (Article 13) provides arbitration and judicial settlement as one of two major procedures of peaceful settlements:

The Members of the League agree that whenever any dispute shall arise between them which they recognize to be suitable for submission to arbitration and which cannot be satisfactorily settled by diplomacy they will submit the whole subject-matter to arbitration. The Charter of the United Nations [Article 33, paragraph 1] expresses its preference for a dispute settlement through arbitration: “The parties in any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace an security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice.”

2. The Historical Background of Wilson’s Arbitration On January 19, 1920, the Supreme Council of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers in Paris (Prime Ministers of Great Britain, France and Italy; respectively-Mr. Lloyd George, Mr. Clemenceau and Mr. Nitti ) agreed to recognize the government of the Armenian State as a de facto government on the condition that the recognition should not prejudge the question of the eventual frontier . The United States recognized the de facto government of the Republic of Armenia on April 23, 1920 , on the condition that the territorial frontiers should be left for later determination.

[...]

Ottawa, April 24, 2006

[Armenian]

Is Armenia’s non-recognition of Turkey’s borders main obstacle to normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations?

The number of Armenians willing normalization of relations with Turkey has increased recently, head of the department of international relations at University of Economic and Technology, professor Mustafa Aydin said in an interview with PanARMENIAN.Net. “Of course, problems still exist. One of them is Armenia’s recognition of present-day Turkey’s borders, according to the Treaty of Kars. The second is the tragedy of 1915 which is viewed by many Turks as history having nothing in common with the modern Turkish State. The 1915 events shouldn’t hamper the Armenia-Turkey public dialog,” he said. Armenians from Diaspora insisting on recognition of the 1915 events as Genocide pose obstacle to the dialog, according to him. “Armenians in Armenia and more tolerant and it’s easier to hold talks with them. But it’s my personal opinion,” prof. Aydin remarked.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=26187

[Armenian]

Since we are haveing another infestation of Turks here, I wanted to resurrect this thread once more...

[jgk3]

good idea.

[SoyElTurco]

Originally Posted by Armenian

Whether or not Armenia develops and nuclear bomb

Nukes? You want a nuke race? Turkey is already considering to build a nuclear reactor for energy purposes. If Armenia acquires a bomb, then Turkey will respond likewise.

You want to nuke your ancestral lands that you want to retake?

[yerazhishda]

Originally Posted by SoyElTurco

Nukes? You want a nuke race? Turkey is already considering to build a nuclear reactor for energy purposes. If Armenia acquires a bomb, then Turkey will respond likewise.

You want to nuke your ancestral lands that you want to retake?

No we just want to nuke downtown Constantinople and Ankara.

[SoyElTurco]

Originally Posted by yerazhishda

No we just want to nuke downtown Constantinople and Ankara.

i dont think anyone is dumb enough to start a nuclear war. so you dont consider Istanbul or Western Turkey to be apart of you ancestral lands?

[yerazhishda]

Originally Posted by SoyElTurco

i dont think anyone is dumb enough to start a nuclear war. so you dont consider Istanbul or Western Turkey to be apart of you ancestral lands?

No of course not. Armenians only consider from Karabagh to a little west of Kharpert (Elazig) to be ancestral Armenian lands in terms of length from east-west.

This should help:

[truAnatolian]

Originally Posted by SoyElTurco

i dont think anyone is dumb enough to start a nuclear war. so you dont consider Istanbul or Western Turkey to be apart of you ancestral lands?

Nope. Eastern Turkey is though.

[skhara]

Originally Posted by SoyElTurco

so you dont consider Istanbul or Western Turkey to be apart of you ancestral lands?

Uhhh nooo. those are greek.

[Palavra]

Good luck!! I am with you..!!! But map is a little wrong, It should include yozgat and exclude trabzon.(I am not saying this because I am from trabzon.)

Hmm, I should add that I prefer russian occupation because of their superb girls..



Anyway, It looks like there is not enough job at armenia so You can waste your time with such stupid threads.. You should liberate your brain from past before liberation of armenia..