The Ottomans

[Hellektor]

Re: The Ottomans

"Good". So Mr. James Holding wants to make a myth out of Christ and a Jewish myth of course! (created by Jews) Pure nonsense.

I know that He's been compared to many mythical figures but again as I said Christ has a different nature; He is a true "myth" for me. Look what C.S. Lewis (the Christian mythologist) had to say on all this: "The story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference that it really happened."

Dear Lucin,

I do not want to give the impression that I am arguing or I am disrespectful towards certain beliefs. Elsewhere, I have expressed that I support the role of the Armenian Church during centuries where we had no independent state and also all the great church figures from Mashtotz, Sahak Partev, Nerses Shnorhali to Khrimian Hyrik and Komitas. Mer Kristoneutyunn urish e.

What I'm saying is, and I don't know where the confusion is, the story of Jesus' life and his miracles come from mythology OLDER than Christianity. When I gave you those links, I had just browsed those pages and I did not care for the authors. The truth is the virgin birth, the names Jesus, Christ, Lazarus, Joseph, walking on water, healing the blind, bringing the dead to life, feeding thousands with little food, 12 disciples, crucifixion, resurrection, etc., etc., all are COPIED by the creators of Christianity from those OLDER myths.

Logic tells us that if a myth/story having existed a thousand years before something else is repeated WORD FOR WORD a thousand years later, there is no chance at all that the OLDER myth has copied the one that had to happen a thousand years later.

While I do not believe in the historic truth of this figure let alone all the copied myths created in the later centuries after his supposed existence, believing that a good man existed who preached good things and was called Jesus is not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned, as long as the believer does not force their beliefs on the others in the manner of Inquisition.

I hadn't heard of this project of him but yea he indeed had many other huge plans for Iran in his head, one of them being the Olympic Games…

They distributed a book for free in the schools written by him called Besuye Tamaddone Bozorg sometime in the 1350's Shamsi where he explained his visions for Iran. There was also this thing called the White Revolution (Enghelabe Sefide Shah o Mardom, 1341 Shamsi) info regarding which may be possible to find on the net. I have never searched for it. There were several revolutionary projects that were also put in practice, all of which were quite socialistic for a monarchy like Iran.

Perhaps… and now we have the other 'extreme'. I think usually it's following such 'extremities' that we experience a sudden downfall right after, a 'revolution' in this case…

You say approximately the same thing that I am saying. It was too soon for this society and the revolution was more because of this, i.e. AGAINST freedom rather than FOR it.

Today, it's far better than those early days and it was getting better & better day by day until Inghadinejad tried to derail the course of events. And I do not criticize him much for this, that I do for his so-called economic "plans" that proved to be disastrous for the country…

Okay, I think we are crossing the red line. Zaban-e sorkh dahad sar-e sabz bar bad?

I do not agree entirely on this. Today it is no better; it is only that the technological advances have made it more difficult for them to control the people. An example: I download all the music I like whenever I feel like it, while in those dark days we had to wait for a limited number of new vinyl albums that were brought into the country by the music traders who traveled to Europe three or four times a year and copied and distributed them on cassettes, an activity that was normal before the catastrophe and was illegal in the days of the mullahs. OK, let's stop this before we lose our heads.

Oh, the sweeper! He is just a scapegoat figure (a matarsak) they have set up so that we all blame him and forget the real culprits and creators of our tragedy that's been going on for the last thirty years. The seven tooman dollar did not become 935 toomans in his days, right?

[CRDA-France]

Re: The Ottomans

Some links on Ottoman-Armenian relations [ http://www.google.fr/language_tools?hl=fr ] :

http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/fr/6histoire/par_pays/turquie00.htm

Nil (Paris)
#8724

[lampron]

Re: We are not empire seekers

Dear Karo,

It is the artificially fabricated bogus state of fake “Azerbaijan” which was fraudulently counterfeited on Armenian territory in 1918 that's occupying 20% Armenian land and not vice versa. The true limits of Artsakh province were almost twice the size of all the liberated territories including NKR. I have dealt with this in detail in my thingy and especially this myth of control of “Azeri” land is nothing but Turk baloney. Let them show a single internationally valid document that shows Artsakh (or Nakhijevan for that matter) as part of fake “Azerbaijan”.

Even according to international law, their claims have absolutely no basis. It's just the treachery and double standards of the “international” community that have given them a case against us. The “negotiations” aim at nothing else than usurpation of legally Armenian territory for the sore loser side with the help of their all time Judeo-Saxon friends.

A lot of interesting posts on this thread, it's been a while, but on the question of Azerbaijan and whether it's an artificial country, this is my take.
It's true that there was no Azerbaijan before 1918 and it's quite possible that without an Ottoman invasion such a state might not have existed.
On the other hand, the Caucasian Tatars who were mainly Shia and spoke a Turkish dialect would probably have eventually come together as a political and religious entity over some territory where they formed a majority (but not including Baku where before 1918 they were a minority)
As the Ottomans turned their attention east (having been mostly forced out of the Balkans), the concept of Azerbaijani nationalism was to their advantage

[bell-the-cat]

Re: We are not empire seekers

A lot of interesting posts on this thread...

And something of a record to have an OP still with a thread two years after its inception, and for a thread to run to 11 pages in those two years even though our resident perfect being (anonymouse) claimed at its outset that the OP's post had "no purpose".

[crusader1492]

Re: We are not empire seekers

And something of a record to have an OP still with a thread two years after its inception, and for a thread to run to 11 pages in those two years even though our resident perfect being (anonymouse) claimed at its outset that the OP's post had "no purpose".

Sweet vindication! You go girl!

[hipeter924]

Re: We are not empire seekers

Dear Karo,

It is the artificially fabricated bogus state of fake “Azerbaijan” which was fraudulently counterfeited on Armenian territory in 1918 that's occupying 20% Armenian land and not vice versa. The true limits of Artsakh province were almost twice the size of all the liberated territories including NKR. I have dealt with this in detail in my thingy and especially this myth of control of “Azeri” land is nothing but Turk baloney. Let them show a single internationally valid document that shows Artsakh (or Nakhijevan for that matter) as part of fake “Azerbaijan”.

Even according to international law, their claims have absolutely no basis. It's just the treachery and double standards of the “international” community that have given them a case against us. The “negotiations” aim at nothing else than usurpation of legally Armenian territory for the sore loser side with the help of their all time Judeo-Saxon friends.

This is why I never liked the UN or its sub bodies, they are corrupt and hypocritical. Why should you be surprised about how the UN treats Armenia, after all the oil for food program in Iraq (and the sanctions that refused Iraq medicine for treating disease) showed the UN is prepared to murder 500,00-1,000,000 Iraqi children for oil. They white wash this today, reality is that the UN is guilty of many genocides by doing nothing or actively participating in them.

If you want to get Armenia back you will have to fight for it, the international community will never care for Armenia. What I don't understand is why Armenia does not declare war on the Azeri's and Turk's and take Western and Eastern Armenia back as every day Turk's and Azeri's threaten war and repress and murder Armenian's and that is justification enough.

Armenia is better on the battlefield than at a negotiating table with nations who would take pleasure in dividing and destroying Armenia to help Turkey achieve its Pan-Turkic aims. That's the way I see it anyway. This is why they want the territory of Artasakh so badly, because they want to use salami tactics and destroy Armenia slice by slice in the same way that the European powers divided and crippled Czechoslovakia and handed it to Hitler on a plate for conquest.

If Armenia hands Artaskh to the Azeri's, half of Armenia proper will be next. They will never rest until they wipe the Armenian nation off the face of the Earth. There can be no discussion for peace with such paranoid and extreme nationalists that exist today in Turkey and Azerbajian, you can't negotiate for peace with a new age Hitler or Young Turk.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

You make some valid points about the hollowness of the international community's claims to uphold the law. The genocide in Rwanda is another example. Pan Turkism was on the rise in Azerbaijan in the wake of the anti-Armenian pogroms there. In Turkey this is less clear. Many Turks have become used to a comfortable life and I'm not sure imperialism is on their minds any more. Turkey is improving relations with Bulgaria, Greece and Syria

Turkish businessmen are criss-crossing the skies all over the world bidding for contracts and that's what today's Turkey seems to be focussed on (mostly). Now we read that Kayseri (Caesaria, probably 30-35% Armenian before 1915) is the new center of Turkey's furniture export industry.

But this thread is in the history folder.

The Ottomans as we know were desert herdsmen from Central Asia mostly illiterate, who had converted into Islam a short time before they started their westward march.

The Armenians had been active in literature, architecture, philosophy, trade (but less successful in nation building). Then, they stagnated and finally entered the dark ages while the Ottomans went from strength to strength politically.

500 years ago the Ottoman dream was to take Europe and build an empire from England to India.

What was the Armenian dream then? Did the Armenians have a dream? This could explain the difference in fortunes between the Otomans and Armenians

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

St George may be the patron saint of England, but he was born some 2,000 miles away in what is now Turkey.

Now the small Turkish town of Urgup wants to celebrate its links with St George by finding a twin town in England.

Urgup is situated at the foot of Mount Erciyes in Central Anatolia, said to be the scene of the mythical showdown between St George and the dragon.

And frescoes depicting St George and his foe can be found just outside the town in the Goreme caves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8634593.stm

I wonder if Armenian (besides Greek) artists were involved in creating these frescoes?

Mount Erciyes is called Mount Arkeos in Armenian.

Armenian traders, artists and farmers very numerous around Gessaria (Kayseri, in Turkish) until 1915 which is near this mountain

This region came under Ottoman control around the 15/16th century

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Oh, Armenians can fight very well! If I were to give examples of Armenian bravery and the ability to organize and fight, I would have to write a thick book.

Don't forget the most fearful of all Ottoman armies were the Janissaries, most of them stolen kids of the Armenians.

William Saroyan..

“I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered. Go ahead, destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them into the desert without bread or water. Burn their homes and churches. Then see if they will not laugh, sing and pray again. For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a New Armenia.”

Saroyan seems to think that Armenians had lost all of their wars. We can say that until Armenian forces repelled attacks by Azerbaijan, they had scored very few victories in 600 years

It is true Armenians were successful when fighting for foreign armies

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

what is interesting is that after experimenting with Kemalism (nationalism) for nearly 90 years, Turks are moving toward the Ottoman model.

the ottoman model gave more recognition to all the different nationalities

Turks have realized that for Turkey to remain a single state, and not break up into a Kurdish and a Turkish unit, Turkish nationalism will have to be toned down