Origins of the Armenian peoples

[Sarkis]

Re: Origins of the Armenian peoples

Gene of Mideast Ancestor May Link 4 Disparate Peoples

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By NICHOLAS WADE
Published: August 22, 1997

Several thousand years ago, somewhere in the Middle East, there lived a person who bequeathed a particular gene to many present-day descendants. But these millions of now distant relatives could not convincingly be called one big happy family. They include xxxs, Arabs, Turks and Armenians.

The gene, a variant of a gene that controls fever, has come to light because it causes an unusual disease called familial Mediterranean fever in people who inherit a copy from both parents. The gene's presence among a surprising group of populations hints at the rich archeology that lies buried in the human genome, once geneticists and historians have learned how to interpret it.

Two rival teams of scientists in France and the United States have been racing to isolate the gene for a year. The race finished today, with the American team announcing its finding in the journal Cell, the French team in Nature Genetics.

The American team has named the gene pyrin, from the Greek word for fire, after its role in fever; the French team calls it marenostrin after the Latin ''Our Sea,'' a Roman phrase for the Mediterranean. The race could be considered a dead heat, although the American team has recovered the whole gene, the French team just a major portion.

People who inherit a single variant copy of the fever gene from one parent and a normal copy from the other parent have no sign of the disease. They are so numerous, constituting up to 20 percent of certain xxxish and Armenian populations, that carrying one copy is assumed to confer some significant benefit, like a greater resistance to disease.

In people with two copies, however, the immune system goes into overdrive at inappropriate moments, causing bouts of severe fever. The scientists who have analyzed the fever gene and its variants say they now understand why.

The normal gene specifies a protein that from its design motifs looks as if it is meant to slip into the nucleus of the cell and switch genes on or off. Since the gene is active only in a special class of white blood cells, its usual duty seems to be to control the cells' activity and rein them in when the threat of infection has passed. The white blood cells defend against infections and often cause fever in doing so.

The new findings, in portraying the exact genetic anatomy of the normal gene and its variant forms, give a strong clue as to why the variant versions have the effects they do. The variant forms have mutations, or changes of a single DNA letter, in the region of the gene assigned to the switching function. Presumably the mutations make the gene's protein inefficient in its duty of restraining the white blood cells.

The historical significance of the finding lies in the genetic relationship it implies between populations that have been separate for many hundreds of years. For example, the variant form of the gene found in North African xxxs, Iraqi xxxs and Armenians is the same, carrying both the same mutation and a pattern of 11 other genetic changes, all harmless. Although single genetic changes can arise independently, the presence of so many together in the same combination points strongly to a ''founder'' or single ancestor as the original source of the variant gene.

A second variant form of the gene, according to the American team, is shared by Iraqi xxxs, Ashkenazi xxxs, the Moslem Druze sect and Armenians. The two variants are similar and probably derive from the same founder.

The Americans write that the mutations are ''very old'' and that they suggest ''common origins for several Middle Eastern populations.''

Dr. Daniel L. Kastner, a member of the team, said the original possessor of the variant gene probably lived several thousand years ago and certainly less than 40,000 years ago, according to a formula that relates the average length of a shared genetic segment to the number of generations that have passed. Dr. Kastner said the founder's gene may have spread through a population in the Middle East that existed before xxxs, Armenians and Arabs became distinct peoples.

He also noted that the variant fever gene established a common genetic lineage between Ashkenazi xxxs and Iraqi xxxs, even though the two communities have been separated since the Babylonian Captivity that began in 597 B.C. Many xxxs from the ancient community in Iraq now live in Israel.

The French team has detected the main variant in xxxs and Arabs from North Africa and in Turks and Armenians. Dr. Jean Weissenbach of the gene laboratory Genethon, a member of the French team, said that the variant gene was ancient but that an exact date of it origin could not be calculated.

Experts in Middle Eastern history and linguistics said they knew of no historical event to link the four populations in which the variant fever gene has been found, although three - Arabs, xxxs and Armenians - are related geographically, having originated in the Middle East. The ancestral Armenian homeland is around Lake Van in Turkey. The Seljuk Turks invaded from Central Asia in the 11th century, and they absorbed many of the local inhabitants.

Familial Mediterranean fever is rare in the United States. Patients often endure years of misdiagnoses. Once the disease is recognized, an effective drug, colchicine, is available. Now that the DNA sequence of the variant gene is known, an accurate test can be made.

''This will really help to diagnose the disease in the very early stages and to start the colchicine treatment as soon as possible,'' Dr. Weissenbach said.

The American-led team includes scientists from Israel and Australia. The French team is from Genethon in Evry and two other laboratories.

[vrej]

why thank you, ya i was away for a while .. i'm really busy with A.R.F.Y.O.C and A.S.A for i'm in both executives.

i saw really interesting threads and decided to voice my opinion on some, although i might not be able to post as much as i used to!

[jahannam]

wooow
Vrej is back!
I was going through some old threads the other day, and I read your posts. you were a good part of our forum family.
welcome back!

[vrej]

i know im entering this discussion a bit too late, but of my knowledge and study of history we are the descendant of Noahs son hapet's son's Torkom, who's son was Haig.

this is why we are also called Torkomia Tzegh.. the race of Torkom. yes we have always inhabited the Armenian mountainous region and sadly the ancient history taught these days fail to mention the Armenian's role in history.

Armenia was known to be the land of the gods as mentioned in the epic of Gilgamesh, wher gilgamesh travels to the land where the gods meet to find the tree of life, and he was going to Armenia. We beleived in the god Ar as the highest deity who was the sun god.. hence why we are also known to be the aryan race
Ar- sun god yan (the son of)
the list goes on and if needed i will continue...

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Nimrod Despite all of that, tell me this: why do you (knowing what you know) consider yourself a fixed ethnicity? Why call yourself Armenian? Why call yourself anything for that matter? You don't know. How do you know you are Armenian? Remember? That "region has been invaded and conquered by many people."Well ok, that means for all we know we could be Assyrians or even Arabs or even TURKS or even MONGOLS( those tribes cannot be mongrels remember?.) And you know, it s funny that you mention a function that you are familiar with, "copy paste." Let me guess, you were "high" on that one as well? I think I speak for everyone who witnessed that when I say you really jump to too many conclusions without assessing proper historical significance.

Please refer to my "The Armenian Nation" Thread for an explanation.

I am Armenian, because I speak the language and out of English, the broken Russian, and Armenian that I know, Armenian is what I speak in my conscience to myself.

In learning a language we are imbued with a way of thinking and expressing thoughts predetermined by that language. So by choosing Armenian as my rallying point and main language, I am ipso facto Armenian.

This is my post in my thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Essentially this is my problem, and the whole reason I started this thread...namely that there is an Armenian nation and its for the Armenian people who are descendents of either Hayk, or Hayasa, or whatever tribes you can think of. This is ahistorical for it ignores history. This little graph will perhaps convey what I am trying to say.


R=Roman
P=Persian
A=Arabic
G=Greek
M=Mongol
Ru=Russian
As=Assyrian


Hayk --------R--------- G---------- A ----------Ru-------------
Hayasa ---------------------------------------------------------------Present
Tribes,etc. -------------As------- P----------- M--------------


Do you see what I am trying to get it? We may have a straight line and say "We descended from Hayk, etc.", but that doesn't take into account all the shifts, and changes of history. Maybe I descended from a Greek, and you from an Arab, and he from a Assyrian, but what we had in common is adopting Armenian as the dominant language form. Thus that is the problem with nationalism in that it projects itself into the past and says "we descended from this". Well maybe so, but no one stays pure, especially not in that region of the Caucasus.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by TigranJamharian Anon you are an unpatriotic piece of crap. take your liberal "love everyone, history doesnt matter" bullxxxx somewhere else please. i didnt expect this from you.

Shut up you turd tossing tard.

[TJ]

Anon you are an unpatriotic piece of crap. take your liberal "love everyone, history doesnt matter" bullxxxx somewhere else please. i didnt expect this from you.

[Nimrod]

Despite all of that, tell me this: why do you (knowing what you know) consider yourself a fixed ethnicity? Why call yourself Armenian? Why call yourself anything for that matter? You don't know. How do you know you are Armenian? Remember? That "region has been invaded and conquered by many people."Well ok, that means for all we know we could be Assyrians or even Arabs or even TURKS or even MONGOLS( those tribes cannot be mongrels remember?.) And you know, it s funny that you mention a function that you are familiar with, "copy paste." Let me guess, you were "high" on that one as well? I think I speak for everyone who witnessed that when I say you really jump to too many conclusions without assessing proper historical significance.

[Nimrod]

If "race" and or "nations" do not matter and since you really neglect to see their importance then tell me where BLACKS came from (African-Americans.) I will determine your what your actual goal is based upon your response.

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Anonymouse By the "theory" I appoint?

Listen Numbrod, you come to the forums, which is not the profiles, and you attempt to try to join discussions using methods that would get a high school student an F with your gross assumptions and distortions to fit into whatever ego driven slant you have going on.

What "theory" am I appointing? The fact that no one is "pure" and "nationalism" and "nation" is based on false claims? Guess what, the same "theory" I am appointing, which you call Jewish influenced, applies to Jews and Israel as well, since they have no claim to that land aside from the Bible, which doesn't mention anything called a "Jew" since this is a relatively modern term, surfacing AFTER Shakespeare, the Bible only refers to Hebrews. Jews are not Hebrews.

You never attempt to discuss any of the topics, instead you get into a copy and paste frenzy and attempt to "prove" whatever it is that you're out to prove. So what if "Armenians" descended from "Hittites". Those people who are "Armenians" that descended from "Hittites" didn't call themselves so, in fact we have no idea since they had no written language, our best shot is a guess. Furthermore, only with the perspective of hindsight are we able to tell these things and give them labels such as "Armenian". I cannot see where you are trying to go with this, maybe to give claims to Armenian lands, or some sort of superiority that we were "the most ancient ones" or "civilization started from Armenians". The "theory" I am appointing applies to all people since no one is "pure" and throughout time people have mixed and changed, so the past is not necessarily the determining factor of what the future will be. I have already come to terms that "Armenians" will disappear, and that just because during Tigran the Great Armenia was from sea to sea, isn't a justification for Armenia to be so today, in other words because it was so ages ago under a different time, doesn't mean we can use that as a measuring stick to have all the lands returned to us since those "Armenians" under Tigran were far more different than the "Armenians" that we are now, and ultimatley this is what leads me to a unpopular stance with Armenians since I don't want "lands back" if Turkey admits to the Genocide. Too many Armenians are caught in this little hurdle. Nations, people, and boundaries change, since history is not a point in time, it is a process.

"Listen Numbrod" real college-bound maturity there. I am not saying we are "pure" or anything. Frankly, no one is pure and I really do not see what your motive is with something I did not say. I do NOT understand why that will not penetrate through your thick skull. Et al YES, I am not disagreeing with you. But we go by what we are mostly, I have said that over and over-- I am a broken record player now-- If you are 60% Chinese and only 40% Irish then you TECHNICALLY are CHINESE. We do not measure in such detailed specific terms. IF you put it into your dull-underestimation and calculations NO ONE is anything. There exists not White or Yellow or Red or any race. You have managed once again to turn what I said into your regurgitated propoganda that you were brainwashed with. I will repeat once again in case you were stunned by that UCLA weed smoke: I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE ALL PURE. Pure means 100% one fixed identity. I do not think ANYONE anywhere has that. Save your bickerings with all of this detailed facts and apply it to where it belongs. What I am saying is (PAY ATTENTION) we are the descendents of those ancient tribes. Meaning THAT IS WHERE WE COME FROM. In case you forgot, this is a DISCUSSION and a learning process about ARMENIANS and who we are. No one was ranting about how "great" or "terrible" we are. This is why many Armenians are the way they are because you get all caught up with two total contrary things at the same time and you try to intercede it with your "professor s" theory while trying to conceal your tainted views by including the rest of the bunch (such as the JEWS into a category that puts them to shame.) WE ALREADY KNEW THAT. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. WHAT I WAS IMPLYING was that their FORCE of propoganda is far greater than what your little miniscule mind can bare. Still as of today they deny that they crucified Christ. They reply "It was the Romans." As for your "copy and paste" Well I was just trying to PROVE by highlighting the information and sources of where I retrieved them and you really need to learn to compare and INTERACT with some of your material. Also, if you are to believe what you have "learned" then why do we care to acknowledge any RACE or ethnicity? Such as those listed on standardized tests and else where? It says "Check one of the following" then it shows a list of different races: White Black etc. Why check any of those" Well maybe a better way to sum it up in your fashion is "We do not really know how do we know????" See, you have no valid arguments either way because what you are addressing does not cover 100% of anything else either whether it be the "bible" or any anthropological evidence. We have established everything so far that historians have managed to DIG UP and discover. Still as of today the EXACT origins and lifestyle of "Armenians" is far too complicated to investigate to give a conrete answer to, for anyone.


One final time I will say this so that we are clear: THE BIBLE SAYS THAT WHOLE REGION SPOKE AND ACCEPTED ONE LANGUAGE : Aramai. Therefore, take your petty "that descended from "Hittites" didn't call themselves so, in fact we have no idea since they had no written language, our best shot is a guess. " elsewhere since that lost it s vitality.


My goal (just so you would stop presuming things I have never indicated): To be as clear as possible as to who we are why we are and how we are. There is "nationalistic" ego boasts because we are not here to verse against other ethnicities. If we or I better yet, want to learn some credible tactics on appearing "superior" I will give you a call since you proudly throw your hat into that sort of thing. On a final note, I would appreciate it if you would stop jumbling up facts together against me just to mold this into some "positive" cause. Nations are what we make them, PERIOD end of story. As for the rest of that information you have managed to once again facilitate, TELL US something we do not know and stop trying to conjure up facts to fix and create this "holy wiseman" identity to yourself.