Why couldn't Armenians....

[crusader1492]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Lets get back to the subject of this thread before it gets any further off track. This thread is not about Islamic theocracies.

[SoyElTurco]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

You cannot become both religious and nationalist.

Hmm why? I am neither nationalist nor secular.. what is your problem with me? Oh most probably I am not even Turk. You should love me much

So how can discrimination goes with Allah becoming just? Just curiosity..

Absolutely. It is better to choose word more carefully.

Tax issues is totally different. There were christian subject who did not pay tax but become soldier. Anyway, Muslim countries also made a lot discrimination or where do you think 60.000 greek at istanbul gone?

That is totally absurd. I am zero nationalist and I will fight any country muslim or not who attack my country. You know, we should use same standart for all people includes nonmuslims or muslims. If Muslim rulers are harsh, You should fight against them. Personally I prefer to fight against saddam than UK.

I should also say, there is not any nationalism which is not contradict with islam. Islam banned it. That is all..

You brought up a good deal of issues. they all have to be evaluated carefully.

NAtionalism: We are allowed to appreaciate our heritage and culture, so as long as it doesn't compromise harmony between muslims. Currently the entire world is by default the state system - the system that emerged out of europe 300 yrs ago. Given that this the standard of the world - nations - it is okay to ignite nationalism so as long as it could be used to further Islam within a state. For example, Czar Alexander 3rd of russia's russification process, orthodoxy was one of his principles, orthodoxy being a part of the russian identity. in this context, he used religion to further national ends, like the fascists during wwII, however, from an Islamic point, in scenarios such as pakistan vs india or turkey vs greece, its okay to use nationalism because no harm is being done between muslims. but to encourage nationalism that will lead to war between muslims is apostasy (kufr).

Take a look at western history - a bloodbath. We muslims have fought one another in the past, but our wars were fewer and further in between. The Ottoman Empire kept peace in the middle east for 200 years. There was a period of 200 years with no war between muslims!!!!! We spent that time fighting only non-muslims - how productive was that!!!!

And about fighting evil muslim governments. Islamically, justice is obligatory. A great muslim scholar by the name of Ibn Taymiyyah said that "if a just non-muslim government were to take out a non-just muslim government, then at that moment, the just non-muslim government is superior. " However, there are disagreements with this opinion for other reasons. If you know a little about the history of Islamic scholarship, you will see that there is strong tradition amongst our scholars of standing up against injustice and oppression by the corrupt, evil and oppressive. The four imams of Ahl Sunnah wal Jama'at (Sunni Islam) all were tortured except for one, and he was poisoned to death.

[gmd]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Turco, the right to bear arms or even to arm bears cannot be compromised. Please stay on the wrong cost with your extremist views.

[Palavra]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

The kid is a Islamic zealot just like the majority of Turks living outside of Constantinople and Angora.

Istanbul is equal to Turkey. She is just summary of Turkey. Anyway, There are not islamic zealots in Turkey more than christian one in armenia or USA..

...SoyelTurco is an example of your average Turk...Islamic, nationalist and backwards.

You cannot become both religious and nationalist.

Ask him what he thinks about headscarfs in universities.

Who said I am against it?

Yes, but I would prefer dealing with him over this Palavra character any day. Generally speaking, Armenians have had, and continue to have, problems with the so-called "secular" Turks, not the religious ones. The pan-Turkists in Turkey (or the Grey Wolves) tend to be the secular-nationalist ones. I think you are confusing secular Turks with liberal/socialist Turks.

Hmm why? I am neither nationalist nor secular.. what is your problem with me? Oh most probably I am not even Turk. You should love me much

I don't like the word "religious." But I understand what you mean - yes I try to pray five times and learn about Islam. what exactly do you have concern about in the statement I made?

So how can discrimination goes with Allah becoming just? Just curiosity..

Maybe discrimination is too strong of a word. We differentiate to say the least.

Absolutely. It is better to choose word more carefully.

ere in the west discrimination has very strong negative connotations because it was done so viciously in the past against blacks in the u.s. and turks and arabs in europe. In bonafide muslims empires, the non-muslims were simply required to pay higher taxes and be loyal to state.

Tax issues is totally different. There were christian subject who did not pay tax but become soldier. Anyway, Muslim countries also made a lot discrimination or where do you think 60.000 greek at istanbul gone?

nd I'm nationalist to the point where it doesn't contradict my Islam. i.e. I wont fight against other muslims.

That is totally absurd. I am zero nationalist and I will fight any country muslim or not who attack my country. You know, we should use same standart for all people includes nonmuslims or muslims. If Muslim rulers are harsh, You should fight against them. Personally I prefer to fight against saddam than UK.

I should also say, there is not any nationalism which is not contradict with islam. Islam banned it. That is all..

[seruven]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Ask him what he thinks about headscarfs in universities.

As a democratic socialist, I believe that headscarfs should be allowed in universities, too. So it's not ony religious guys.
I disagree with most of your statements regarding to Turkey, but I am too sleepy to write more. Maybe later, crusader. (find a smart answer which will rhyme.)

[SoyElTurco]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Soyelturk,what are you talking about? Are you a religious guy?

I don't like the word "religious." But I understand what you mean - yes I try to pray five times and learn about Islam. what exactly do you have concern about in the statement I made?

Maybe discrimination is too strong of a word. We differentiate to say the least. Here in the west discrimination has very strong negative connotations because it was done so viciously in the past against blacks in the u.s. and turks and arabs in europe. In bonafide muslims empires, the non-muslims were simply required to pay higher taxes and be loyal to state. There were other things that had to be forfeited (I think the right to bare arms). ... so is this discrimination in the way we define it today? It's arguable.

Of course he is. Why would you even ask...you don't have to read between the lines to see that.
The kid is a Islamic zealot just like the majority of Turks living outside of Constantinople and Angora.

...SoyelTurco is an example of your average Turk...Islamic, nationalist and backwards.

Ask him what he thinks about headscarfs in universities.

there no compromise on headscarf. its not an individual decision. just like taxes arent negotiable. the head scarf, prayers and other markers of identity or acts of worship are God's tax. we have to pay his tax socially, spiritually, economically, politically, etc.....

interesting you said backwards. it'd be better if you elaborate. do you equate being "religious" with being backwards?

"Islamic zealot" is a redundancy. Just say "Islamic."

And I'm nationalist to the point where it doesn't contradict my Islam. i.e. I wont fight against other muslims. (of course there are exceptions, maybe pkk (communists) or the shia.

heres a little background about me. i was a little agnostic in my attitudes in high school - very scientific and philosophy/reason/rationality oriented. in college i got more religious and much more turkish. I grew up in brooklyn, ny in a turkish community and family. thats pretty much it. now you know a little bit, your comments, i hope, will be better calibrated.

[ARGENTINA]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Why couldn't Armenians create a sustaining, lasting and large empire to this day?

Anatolia has been swapped between the Romans, Macedonians (Alexander the Great), Persians, Byzantines, Some Arabs, and finally the Turks. Since Armenians did inhabit most of eastern Anatolia for centuries, why weren't they effective enough to create their own empire that survived through into a nation state?

The only time Armenians managed to maintain empires were the interim periods between the other empires; Armenia only came around when the land was being switched hands amongst other empires.

It's just one of those things. You know, have been there first and around for a while but never got around to anything. Kind of like the native Americans in America - they had so many opportunities to stop the Europeans - but it just didn't happen.

Was it just bad luck?

it is the way we play the game, it could be nasty ,well as far that I know historically we play generally to the wrong horse, but we are proud nation not admit to be the looser that is other way of reliving back pain,we need lots of aspirin finally,since 1990 we haven participated any racing game , the politic builders win and we as well, the others loose we get contented , so far so good ,finally we have silk road control problem with ziyonmakers, we got to play to the right horse this time.

[Armenian]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Of course he is. Why would you even ask...you don't have to read between the lines to see that. The kid is a Islamic zealot just like the majority of Turks living outside of Constantinople and Angora...SoyelTurco is an example of your average Turk...Islamic, nationalist and backwards. Ask him what he thinks about headscarfs in universities.

Yes, but I would prefer dealing with him over this Palavra character any day. Generally speaking, Armenians have had, and continue to have, problems with the so-called "secular" Turks, not the religious ones. The pan-Turkists in Turkey (or the Grey Wolves) tend to be the secular-nationalist ones. I think you are confusing secular Turks with liberal/socialist Turks.

[crusader1492]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Soyelturk,what are you talking about? Are you a religious guy?

Of course he is. Why would you even ask...you don't have to read between the lines to see that.
The kid is a Islamic zealot just like the majority of Turks living outside of Constantinople and Angora.

...SoyelTurco is an example of your average Turk...Islamic, nationalist and backwards.

Ask him what he thinks about headscarfs in universities.

[Palavra]

Re: Why couldn't Armenians....

Soyelturk,what are you talking about? Are you a religious guy?