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Armenian "Nation"

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  • Armenian "Nation"

    I have a particular problem with Armenian nationalist historians who try to use the past to justify the present and the future.

    The idea of an Armenian "nation-state", which seeks to form a homogenous Armenian speaking habitat is not in accordance with history. This implies that "we have always been Armenian for thousands of years all the way from the Yervantid Dynasty to the present State". We project ourselves into the past that for some reason Armenians have always been a nation. That is untrue.

    When I see Armenians today speaking of Armenian history and saying "Why couldn't the Armenians have been more united?", well that ignores an integral part of history, which should not be viewed with the lens of isms that reared their ugly heads from the Enlightenment. Whether you are a Marxist like Shahumyan viewing the rest of history with the lens of Marxism, you are no different from someone viewing history through the lens of Nationalism.

    When Armenians of the present, seek to compare themselves of the Armenians of the past, and outline a common ancestry or descent and project themselves into the distant past, that is anti-historical. This implies that Armenians ( and this isn't just for Armenains this applies to all modern nations ), have always had a fixed and common identity for all time. What this does is ignore the history of a world before nationalism became a potent ideology. Then after that was established, all history was viewed through this lens. And to that degree, one can say that 'history' was created in 19th century Germany, where nationalism gained a foothold.

    The truth is that Armenians of today, or those who claim "Armenian ethnicity" are nothing like what the Armenians of the Yervantid Dynasty were, or the Arshakhuni. Throughout its history "Armenian" has been a term that has changed in meaning. At one point "Armenians" were those who were heavily influenced and interacted with the Greeks, at another it was with the Persians. Many Armenian nakharar houses are of Persian origin as well. Then when the Umayyads attacked Armenia, there was further demographic change. The same applies to the Turkic and Mongol invasions, and then on to the Russian influence. Throughout all its history people have changed. The fact that an a nakharar such as the Bagratunis can ally themselves with an Arab emirate in Armenia, against another "Armenian" nakharar house, show the fungible nature of what it meant to be "Armenian". Likewise if an Arab Muslim can convert to Christianity and call himself "Armenian" suggests the same thing.

    Yet acknowledging that nationalism has roots in the Enlightenment, that doesn't deter us from somehow giving ourselves legitimacy that "Armenian" has been a fixed national identity even before they knew themselves as a "nation". To quote Patrick Geary:

    "Even today, neonationlists acknowledge that the political self-consciousness of modern nationalism is a nineteenth- or twentieth century phenomenon, yet attempt to claim that while political ethnicity is of recent origin, cultural ethnicity is much more ancient. The people was a people, in other words, before it knew itself and language is both the sign and innermost reality of this immutable identity."

    The truth his the people that have been "Armenian" throughout the ages, have changed, and as they have changed, the language has changed also because of different influences. The same applies for "Turks". What is meant by a "Turk"? If it is someone who speaks a Turkic language in modern day "Turkey", then it is implied that he has always had a fixed identity for all time, descending from the Mongoloid invaders. Well, this ignores the fact that the region was heavily populated by Armenian and Greek speaking peoples and they were merely absorbed. That is why today Turks Greeks and Armenians look far more alike with one another, than a modern Turk Greek or Armenian would with people from the 4th - 10th century who claimed to be "Greek, Turk, or Armenian".

    I know this isn't a comfortable position to take, especially one that is bound to get me ostracised in my own community. I nonetheless cannot taint history because of ideological bias. Cheers.
    Achkerov kute.

  • #2
    I have thought a lot about what you are talking about Anon.

    And I have as yet not come to a conclusion.

    Maybe it is my strong nationalistic feelings that keep me from coming to the conclusion that you have. I frankly dont know. But I would like to ignore the fact that we Armenians arent 100% or even 90% what Armenians were 1000 or 2000 years ago. We do probably have some turkish persian russian greek arab blood in us. But the point is that those people who were only part Armenian chose to be part of the Armenian "nation" and not the other nations and I believe that by simply choosing and accepting the culture they are part of the nation as long as they are at least part Armenian.

    Other than this i dont know what to say. I just think it is hard for Armenians nowadays to unite because we are all so different and live so far away from each other, but then again look at the jews and see how good they work together. But if you take an unbiased look at Armenians today you can see how we are coming closer and finally learning to work together for common goals. The diaspora has finally realized that Armenia is also their homeland and that they have to help improve the country and the Hayastantsis have finally realized that the Diaspora Armenians are the same blood as them and are their brothers and also wish for the welfare of Armenia.

    What can I say. I hope we all multiply and increase the Armenian population and make our dear Armenia stronger and better than ever before and put aside our differences and unite under one banner, the Armenian flag.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TigranJamharian I have thought a lot about what you are talking about Anon.

      And I have as yet not come to a conclusion.

      Maybe it is my strong nationalistic feelings that keep me from coming to the conclusion that you have. I frankly dont know. But I would like to ignore the fact that we Armenians arent 100% or even 90% what Armenians were 1000 or 2000 years ago. We do probably have some turkish persian russian greek arab blood in us. But the point is that those people who were only part Armenian chose to be part of the Armenian "nation" and not the other nations and I believe that by simply choosing and accepting the culture they are part of the nation as long as they are at least part Armenian.
      Of course there was no "Armenian nation", is what I am trying to say. Can you define what is meant by Armenian nation? If it is defined as comprised of Armenians who speak an Armenian language and have similar cultural traditions, then that is not so, since Armenians have always differed. The Armenians in "Greater Armenia" were not as "Greekified" as the Armenians in "Lesser Armenia". Likewise, the Armenians of today are a combination of some people who had been there, others who intermarried or simply others who just adopted it as their "identity". The point I am trying to make is that when we project ourselves into the past, we invariably do so in a nationalistic tone, "For the Armenian nation" which has "survivived" for so long. But it hasn't survived because these people were very "nationalistic" since that concept was alien to them. They survived because they were a resilient people, able to adapt and borrow and interact with other peoples and because of this "Armenian" has changed in its meaning throughout the ages. History is not a particular point in time, it is a process, and we cannot look at any one point in the past and use that as a justification for the present and the future.

      I am not suggesting that "Armenian" is non existent. Quite the contrary, I love my people and my culture and in fact will do my best to preserve it. There is an Armenian culture and we are all a part of this cultural consciousness, it's just it has changed over time. This then means that anyone can be Armenian if they are willing to adopt and conform to this culture as others have done, but in the process bringing their own culture into this one. In fact "Jews" suffer much the same confusion since "Jews" are like the Armenians in many ways. "Jews" are not related to the Hebrews. In fact this is one of the greatest misconceptions or frauds of history, however you want to see it. The idea that we, any people, be it Germans, Jews or Armenians, have a fixed identity for all time, is silly. The creation of Israel is largely based on this myth.

      Originally posted by TigranJamharian Other than this i dont know what to say. I just think it is hard for Armenians nowadays to unite because we are all so different and live so far away from each other, but then again look at the jews and see how good they work together. But if you take an unbiased look at Armenians today you can see how we are coming closer and finally learning to work together for common goals. The diaspora has finally realized that Armenia is also their homeland and that they have to help improve the country and the Hayastantsis have finally realized that the Diaspora Armenians are the same blood as them and are their brothers and also wish for the welfare of Armenia.

      What can I say. I hope we all multiply and increase the Armenian population and make our dear Armenia stronger and better than ever before and put aside our differences and unite under one banner, the Armenian flag.
      And it will flourish and it will get better. I have hopes, just give it time.
      Achkerov kute.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Armenian "Nation"

        Originally posted by Anonymouse I have a particular problem with Armenian nationalist historians who try to use the past to justify the present and the future.

        The idea of an Armenian "nation-state", which seeks to form a homogenous Armenian speaking habitat is not in accordance with history. This implies that "we have always been Armenian for thousands of years all the way from the Yervantid Dynasty to the present State". We project ourselves into the past that for some reason Armenians have always been a nation. That is untrue.

        When I see Armenians today speaking of Armenian history and saying "Why couldn't the Armenians have been more united?", well that ignores an integral part of history, which should not be viewed with the lens of isms that reared their ugly heads from the Enlightenment. Whether you are a Marxist like Shahumyan viewing the rest of history with the lens of Marxism, you are no different from someone viewing history through the lens of Nationalism.

        When Armenians of the present, seek to compare themselves of the Armenians of the past, and outline a common ancestry or descent and project themselves into the distant past, that is anti-historical. This implies that Armenians ( and this isn't just for Armenains this applies to all modern nations ), have always had a fixed and common identity for all time. What this does is ignore the history of a world before nationalism became a potent ideology. Then after that was established, all history was viewed through this lens. And to that degree, one can say that 'history' was created in 19th century Germany, where nationalism gained a foothold.

        The truth is that Armenians of today, or those who claim "Armenian ethnicity" are nothing like what the Armenians of the Yervantid Dynasty were, or the Arshakhuni. Throughout its history "Armenian" has been a term that has changed in meaning. At one point "Armenians" were those who were heavily influenced and interacted with the Greeks, at another it was with the Persians. Many Armenian nakharar houses are of Persian origin as well. Then when the Umayyads attacked Armenia, there was further demographic change. The same applies to the Turkic and Mongol invasions, and then on to the Russian influence. Throughout all its history people have changed. The fact that an a nakharar such as the Bagratunis can ally themselves with an Arab emirate in Armenia, against another "Armenian" nakharar house, show the fungible nature of what it meant to be "Armenian". Likewise if an Arab Muslim can convert to Christianity and call himself "Armenian" suggests the same thing.

        Yet acknowledging that nationalism has roots in the Enlightenment, that doesn't deter us from somehow giving ourselves legitimacy that "Armenian" has been a fixed national identity even before they knew themselves as a "nation". To quote Patrick Geary:

        "Even today, neonationlists acknowledge that the political self-consciousness of modern nationalism is a nineteenth- or twentieth century phenomenon, yet attempt to claim that while political ethnicity is of recent origin, cultural ethnicity is much more ancient. The people was a people, in other words, before it knew itself and language is both the sign and innermost reality of this immutable identity."

        The truth his the people that have been "Armenian" throughout the ages, have changed, and as they have changed, the language has changed also because of different influences. The same applies for "Turks". What is meant by a "Turk"? If it is someone who speaks a Turkic language in modern day "Turkey", then it is implied that he has always had a fixed identity for all time, descending from the Mongoloid invaders. Well, this ignores the fact that the region was heavily populated by Armenian and Greek speaking peoples and they were merely absorbed. That is why today Turks Greeks and Armenians look far more alike with one another, than a modern Turk Greek or Armenian would with people from the 4th - 10th century who claimed to be "Greek, Turk, or Armenian".

        I know this isn't a comfortable position to take, especially one that is bound to get me ostracised in my own community. I nonetheless cannot taint history because of ideological bias. Cheers.
        The only reason why in other languages we are called "Armenians" as opposed to "hyes" is because the root of all of these labels goes all the way back to the times of Ancient Armenia with King Tigran (before Christ). The other NON-Armenians encountered one of our most fearsome genetically advanced tribes, the Armenids. These people during our large empire when we were a lot more than a dot on a map, these people headed out and conqueored. So whatever NON-Armenian state or city-state they invaded upon building their own large empire, they knew them as the ARMENIDS. These others still as of today see and recognize us as just and only those ARMENIDS because that was all they were exposed to at the time. The Haikazs (hyes) remained home in Armenia (which some of the land is still in present-day Turkey.) So, that is why they know US as Armenians as opposed to what we call ourselves in our own native tongue (hye.)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Re: Armenian "Nation"

          Originally posted by Nimrod The only reason why in other languages we are called "Armenians" as opposed to "hyes" is because the root of all of these labels goes all the way back to the times of Ancient Armenia with King Tigran (before Christ). The other NON-Armenians encountered one of our most fearsome genetically advanced tribes, the Armenids. These people during our large empire when we were a lot more than a dot on a map, these people headed out and conqueored. So whatever NON-Armenian state or city-state they invaded upon building their own large empire, they knew them as the ARMENIDS. These others still as of today see and recognize us as just and only those ARMENIDS because that was all they were exposed to at the time. The Haikazs (hyes) remained home in Armenia (which some of the land is still in present-day Turkey.) So, that is why they know US as Armenians as opposed to what we call ourselves in our own native tongue (hye.)

          You know, while this may be a soothing explanation and provides temporary answers and contentment, it is not however, in accordance with history. "Armenids" or "Armenoids" are simply mythical terms we have invented. These people didn't call themselves such, it is simply us, from our time, projecting ourselves into the past and giving names to give meaning to the past, to tie it in to the future, and fuse things together. That is what court historians and nationalist historians do.

          Tigran's "Armenian empire" was not "Armenian" in the modern sense of the word. The term has gone through many changes of what it means to be "Armenian" through history. It was a multilingual and multiethnic empire. Armenians today in their pride assign nationalistic characters to Tigran. Tigran spoke Greek and Persian and was simply a hellenistic conquerer and he for all we know had no idea or sense of what it means to be "Armenian" in the modern sense of the word.
          Achkerov kute.

          Comment


          • #6
            But how do you know what Tigran had a sense of. I personally think he did have a sense of what it meant to be Armenian just like the Romans knew what it meant to be Roman and the Greeks knew what it was to be Greek. By the way, think about how different Armenia might be today and think about what a different course history might have taken and how much stronger we might have gotten and perhaps become a superpower if Tigran's son had not betrayed his father to the Romans.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TigranJamharian But how do you know what Tigran had a sense of. I personally think he did have a sense of what it meant to be Armenian just like the Romans knew what it meant to be Roman and the Greeks knew what it was to be Greek. By the way, think about how different Armenia might be today and think about what a different course history might have taken and how much stronger we might have gotten and perhaps become a superpower if Tigran's son had not betrayed his father to the Romans.
              What you may or may not think what Tigran had a sense of, has no bearing on history. We know Tigran had no sense of Armenian nationalism, because "nationalism' was not around back then, not until the Enlightenment in Europe in the 19th century did nationalism grow and take over the world.

              Tigran relocated many "non Armenian' speaking peoples into his empire. He spoke Greek and Persian and was influenced by Hellenism since prior to him Alexander had conquered the area.
              Achkerov kute.

              Comment


              • #8
                most armenians are in denial, they slip out of there minds that we were under the soviet for many years, as a state of the ussr , and not our own country, but some arrogent people basically say we have always been a nation blah blah, but it isnt technically true. Its developed into many things, and now it has been its own free country for the past 10 years or so.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whitelotus most armenians are in denial, they slip out of there minds that we were under the soviet for many years, as a state of the ussr , and not our own country, but some arrogent people basically say we have always been a nation blah blah, but it isnt technically true. Its developed into many things, and now it has been its own free country for the past 10 years or so.
                  Indeed, to state otherwise, is mutating history into something it hasn't been, merely to fit into your given ideology of what seems best or justifies present policies or boundaries.
                  Achkerov kute.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    yeah well, it comes from the general arrogence and ignorance of the people. we must be number one, we must be the last standing, we were the first born crap.

                    but we all know it isnt true.

                    people know the truth and history, but they say otherwise to feel better about themselves and their ethnicity

                    Comment

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