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Armenian "Nation"

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  • #11
    Re: Re: Re: Armenian "Nation"

    Originally posted by Anonymouse You know, while this may be a soothing explanation and provides temporary answers and contentment, it is not however, in accordance with history. "Armenids" or "Armenoids" are simply mythical terms we have invented. These people didn't call themselves such, it is simply us, from our time, projecting ourselves into the past and giving names to give meaning to the past, to tie it in to the future, and fuse things together. That is what court historians and nationalist historians do.

    Tigran's "Armenian empire" was not "Armenian" in the modern sense of the word. The term has gone through many changes of what it means to be "Armenian" through history. It was a multilingual and multiethnic empire. Armenians today in their pride assign nationalistic characters to Tigran. Tigran spoke Greek and Persian and was simply a hellenistic conquerer and he for all we know had no idea or sense of what it means to be "Armenian" in the modern sense of the word.
    Tigran spoke those as did MANY other rulers. What is your point? Stop trying to guess what occurred in the past when you re simply relying on sources that are taking place in the present. Before Tigran even, as I showed you earlier THERE WERE Armenians and like Assyrians Babylonians we had TRIBES. The Hittites being the oldest I like think. Either way, if you were to put it that way then the Persians were not their own little "nation" either. Their ruler who united their plundering empires was of Armenian descent. Cyrus the great with the "Sassanians" who migrated over to where present day Iran is (Parthia back then) WERE Armenian (i.e. I am saying their BASES are Armenian just of that one tribe though.)The Romans as well; they were a multiethnic empire speaking Latin. I mean you can barely provide proof for your little "theory" as we speak. However, everything we speak of today has all been MIXED at the same time ASSIMILATED. Before the Persians there were the Sumerians then came the Babylonians (I am saying them in order from the ruling powers before Christ) Then there was the Assyrians who were then finally attacked by the Hittites of that region soon enough. Then came Egypt followed by the Medes (mixed tribe of present day Kurds Arabs Persians etc.) then Persia then Macedonia then last but certainly not least, Rome.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by whitelotus most armenians are in denial, they slip out of there minds that we were under the soviet for many years, as a state of the ussr , and not our own country, but some arrogent people basically say we have always been a nation blah blah, but it isnt technically true. Its developed into many things, and now it has been its own free country for the past 10 years or so.


      Not to sound condescending or rude but who really denies that? We were PART of a nation when we were a part of the USSR. That does not account of anything. So was Ukraine and Uzbekistan and etc what is your point? How can anyone deny that? Yes we were a part of the USSR but that means nil to history. I do not think anyone denies that because it is a clear fact, and you should not mistake other people for your misperceptions.
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      • #13
        Originally posted by Nimrod Not to sound condescending or rude but who really denies that? We were PART of a nation when we were a part of the USSR. That does not account of anything. So was Ukraine and Uzbekistan and etc what is your point? How can anyone deny that? Yes we were a part of the USSR but that means nil to history. I do not think anyone denies that because it is a clear fact, and you should not mistake other people for your misperceptions.
        Alright, I will agree with Nimrod. I don't get it either. What do these people say? The USSR never existed? Or it was some sort of russian supremacist propaganda?

        But besides that, even in the soviet union, Armenia was still the ArmenianSSR, and our national identity and culture never disappeared.

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        • #14
          Nimrod doesn't seem to understand, or simply doesn't want to. Being a part of a nation state such as the Soviet Union, doesn't mean Armenia in itself was a nation-state. It didn't become so until 91, plain and simple.

          Beyond that all your rambling is simply a waste of disk space.
          Achkerov kute.

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          • #15
            Re: Re: Re: Re: Armenian "Nation"

            Originally posted by Nimrod Tigran spoke those as did MANY other rulers. What is your point? Stop trying to guess what occurred in the past when you re simply relying on sources that are taking place in the present. Before Tigran even, as I showed you earlier THERE WERE Armenians and like Assyrians Babylonians we had TRIBES. The Hittites being the oldest I like think. Either way, if you were to put it that way then the Persians were not their own little "nation" either. Their ruler who united their plundering empires was of Armenian descent. Cyrus the great with the "Sassanians" who migrated over to where present day Iran is (Parthia back then) WERE Armenian (i.e. I am saying their BASES are Armenian just of that one tribe though.)The Romans as well; they were a multiethnic empire speaking Latin. I mean you can barely provide proof for your little "theory" as we speak. However, everything we speak of today has all been MIXED at the same time ASSIMILATED. Before the Persians there were the Sumerians then came the Babylonians (I am saying them in order from the ruling powers before Christ) Then there was the Assyrians who were then finally attacked by the Hittites of that region soon enough. Then came Egypt followed by the Medes (mixed tribe of present day Kurds Arabs Persians etc.) then Persia then Macedonia then last but certainly not least, Rome.
            WHAT are you trying to say? I am "guessing" because 99% of history is a guess, since history is written by the victors and tampered and mutated over time, our best even when we put it together is a guess or a microcosm of what really happened. Only an arrogance would assume we know everything there is to completely know.

            Simply speaking, you are the one who keeps accusing me of "guessing" yet you yourself do not provide proof. Historiograpgy is based on evidence, sort of like a science in itself. We need evidence to establish whether or not Armenians as we know it speaking "Armenian" existed during the Sumerians. If that cannot be provided it means there is no proof. The onus is upon you to prove this, not the other way around. One cannot prove a negative. Leave it to nationalist historians to try to create history where there is none. Hell, I have seen some Armenians try to project "Armenians" as far back in time, and even go so far as to claim that Urartu was really Armenian, but I haven't had the pleasure of anyone trying to extend and project "Armenianness" as far back as Sumeria.
            Achkerov kute.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by Anonymouse Nimrod doesn't seem to understand, or simply doesn't want to. Being a part of a nation state such as the Soviet Union, doesn't mean Armenia in itself was a nation-state. It didn't become so until 91, plain and simple.

              Beyond that all your rambling is simply a waste of disk space.
              Well of course Armenia wasn't a nation-state until it received independance in 1991.

              I think the "misunderstanding" is caused by the fact that many people interpret "nation state" as an independant country, and a "nation" as a group of people.

              For example, many Quebecers call themselves "la nation québécoise", although Quebec is not a state. I guess the same example can be applied for Armenia. It wasn't a state from the moment it joined the USSR until 1991, but the Armenian nation was there all along.

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              • #17
                and on top of that it had its own borders within the borders of the ussr.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by TigranJamharian and on top of that it had its own borders within the borders of the ussr.
                  Yep. Hence what I meant when I said that even in the Soviet Union, it was the ArmenianSSR, meaning that we still had a certain autonomy. If we didn't, then there would be no point for stalin to hand Artsakh to the azeris.

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                  • #19
                    But the Armenian "nation" hasn't always been so, is my whole point of this thread. Only with the perspective of hindsight to we look back at history and project ourselves into the past and call it a nation, for it implies a people who live in a certain country, but throughout time, people changed, so have Armenians, and the meaning of what it is to be Armenian, demographically and its boundaries as well.
                    Achkerov kute.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by Anonymouse But the Armenian "nation" hasn't always been so, is my whole point of this thread. Only with the perspective of hindsight to we look back at history and project ourselves into the past and call it a nation, for it implies a people who live in a certain country, but throughout time, people changed, so have Armenians, and the meaning of what it is to be Armenian, demographically and its boundaries as well.
                      I don't think it is debatable that 4000 years ago, you wouldn't find an armenian like the armenians you see today. However, there have of course been certain (or many) similarities between the many "generations" of armenians, if you will.

                      The links between us and the inhabitants of the fortress town of Erebuni are certainly a lot fewer than the ones between us and the Armenians of 451.

                      It's all part of the normal process of evolution.

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