Armenian "Nation"

[xBaron Dants]

What I guess I am trying to get to is that despite the changes, we still feel very strong links to the armenians that existed about 16-17 hundred years ago.

Vahan Tekeyan (I'm pretty sure it was him, but I could be wrong), in his poem "Vartanank" wrote "Vasn Hisoosi, Vasn Hayrenyats, Haraach!, Vartani dzayne korats". Many many armenians would be able to relate to these lines, uttered over 1500 years ago.

I think that religion plays a major role in allowing us to relate with our ancestors, which is why we feel "closer" to, for example, Vartan Mamigonian, than we do to the pagans that were there earlier. But we still feel this sort of "connection" with our pagan gods, Vahakn, Tork, yevayln.

Anyways, I am just rambling on, I know...it's caused by confusion.

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Baron Dants What I guess I am trying to get to is that despite the changes, we still feel very strong links to the armenians that existed about 16-17 hundred years ago.

Vahan Tekeyan (I'm pretty sure it was him, but I could be wrong), in his poem "Vartanank" wrote "Vasn Hisoosi, Vasn Hayrenyats, Haraach!, Vartani dzayne korats". Many many armenians would be able to relate to these lines, uttered over 1500 years ago.

I think that religion plays a major role in allowing us to relate with our ancestors, which is why we feel "closer" to, for example, Vartan Mamigonian, than we do to the pagans that were there earlier. But we still feel this sort of "connection" with our pagan gods, Vahakn, Tork, yevayln.

Anyways, I am just rambling on, I know...it's caused by confusion.

Well, my main focus is against nationalism and "history" that some of these nationalist historians "create", however I do have a fondness and a love for my culture and people ( not the State, since it is evil ), and the phenomenon that I am witnessing is that "Armenians" as we know them are "dying out" because 1) due to the conditions of Armenia, and 2) no unifying force like religion used to play so they avoided dissolution.

I will always hear in my mind what my mom said, "Aryoonuh joor chi darna".

[xBaron Dants]

Originally posted by Anonymouse Well, my main focus is against nationalism and "history" that some of these nationalist historians "create", however I do have a fondness and a love for my culture and people ( not the State, since it is evil ), and the phenomenon that I am witnessing is that "Armenians" as we know them are "dying out" because 1) due to the conditions of Armenia, and 2) no unifying force like religion used to play so they avoided dissolution.

I will always hear in my mind what my mom said, "Aryoonuh joor chi darna".

My main goal is to turn Armenia the unifying force for Armenians. Make it like Israel for the Jews. I think the Cold War era created this sort of separation between armenians, but we are gradually seeing things getting better. Artsakh, I believe, played a major unifying role too. Diasporans saw in the events of Sumgayt what our ancestors had lived 90 years ago, and it strengthened the link between diasporans and locals.

Cheer up bud, we'll get there

[dstyle]

I think the problem with us is when we are left alone we fight eachother. but thankfully lately when others come after us we sort of do unite. Now how do we get Nakhichevan haha

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Baron Dants My main goal is to turn Armenia the unifying force for Armenians. Make it like Israel for the Jews. I think the Cold War era created this sort of separation between armenians, but we are gradually seeing things getting better. Artsakh, I believe, played a major unifying role too. Diasporans saw in the events of Sumgayt what our ancestors had lived 90 years ago, and it strengthened the link between diasporans and locals.

Cheer up bud, we'll get there

Well, what Israel did for Jews, can be debated, since it is a Zionist State, bent on persecuting those not of the Zionist persuasion. God forbid Armenia turns into that.

If Armenians have always portrayed themselves as sufferers, that would be a drastic change of they themselves having not learned from their own struggles. European Jews, the Ashkenazim, were always the sufferers from what history appears to tell us, and now it appears they haven't learned anything from their own experiences.

[xBaron Dants]

My point was relating to the fact that Jews, regardless of differences, seem to let it all drop for the sake of Israel.

Don't get me started on Zionism though!

[Anonymouse]

Essentially this is my problem, and the whole reason I started this thread...namely that there is an Armenian nation and its for the Armenian people who are descendents of either Hayk, or Hayasa, or whatever tribes you can think of. This is ahistorical for it ignores history. This little graph will perhaps convey what I am trying to say.


R=Roman
P=Persian
A=Arabic
G=Greek
M=Mongol
Ru=Russian
As=Assyrian


Hayk R G A Ru
Hayasa ---------------------------------------------------------------Present
Tribes,etc. As P M


Do you see what I am trying to get it? We may have a straight line and say "We descended from Hayk, etc.", but that doesn't take into account all the shifts, and changes of history. Maybe I descended from a Greek, and you from an Arab, and he from a Assyrian. Thus that is the problem with nationalism in that it projects itself into the past and says "we descended from this". Well maybe so, but no one stays pure, especially not in that region of the Caucasus.

[Tigranes]

Essentially this is my problem, and the whole reason I started this thread...namely that there is an Armenian nation and its for the Armenian people who are descendents of either Hayk, or Hayasa, or whatever tribes you can think of. This is ahistorical for it ignores history. This little graph will perhaps convey what I am trying to say.


R=Roman
P=Persian
A=Arabic
G=Greek
M=Mongol
Ru=Russian
As=Assyrian


Hayk R G A Ru
Hayasa ---------------------------------------------------------------Present
Tribes,etc. As P M


Do you see what I am trying to get it? We may have a straight line and say "We descended from Hayk, etc.", but that doesn't take into account all the shifts, and changes of history. Maybe I descended from a Greek, and you from an Arab, and he from a Assyrian. Thus that is the problem with nationalism in that it projects itself into the past and says "we descended from this". Well maybe so, but no one stays pure, especially not in that region of the Caucasus.

Your graph is beyond incorrect. The coons and gooks have left no genetic prints in the middle ages. Their inclusion is absurd.


Here's a correct one:

Pre-history:
90,000 BC to Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic periods.
Shengavit, Metsamor, Kura-Araxes ...

Period 1: Late Bronze Age
(a) Hayassa-Azzi /Hittites
(b) Rise of Hurro-Urartians
(c) Trojan War-Thraco-Phrygian (Armen) migration

Period 2: Separation of Proto-Armenian and Proto-Greek and the
appearance of Proto-Armenian in the northern Areas of Anatolia,
associated with Luwians and Hittites, possibly in the period from
2200-1900 BCE.

Period 3:
The Urartu State
Thenative Hurrian speaking people take the role of Western Peasants to the
Hurro-Urartian Upper Class while Armen peoples seem to be associated with the Nairi.

Period 4: The Scytho-Median overlordship
The destruction of Urartu gives the Armen tribes the chance to
expand and assume the mantle in the power vacuum of the Urartian
state. This is probably the period in which Hayk becomes
acknowledged as the "ancestor" of Hayassa.

Period 5: Persian Period when the name Armeniya becomes acknowledged as one of the Satrapies of the Persian Empire. This sees the
emergence of Armenian eventually as a literate language with an
adapted and modified Aramaean/Greek script, for the first time.

Period 6: Armenian-Roman-Parthian clashes & alliances
At this period many ancient peoples such as Galatians, Bythinians, Cappadocians, Cilicians etc. are assimilated within the Armenian and Greek ethnos.

[Tres Bien]

"Essentially this is my problem, and the whole reason I started this thread...namely that there is an Armenian nation and its for the Armenian people who are descendents of either Hayk, or Hayasa, or whatever tribes you can think of. This is ahistorical for it ignores history. This little graph will perhaps convey what I am trying to say.


R=Roman
P=Persian
A=Arabic
G=Greek
M=Mongol
Ru=Russian
As=Assyrian


Hayk R G A Ru
Hayasa ---------------------------------------------------------------Present
Tribes,etc. As P M


Do you see what I am trying to get it? We may have a straight line and say "We descended from Hayk, etc.", but that doesn't take into account all the shifts, and changes of history. Maybe I descended from a Greek, and you from an Arab, and he from a Assyrian. Thus that is the problem with nationalism in that it projects itself into the past and says "we descended from this". Well maybe so, but no one stays pure, especially not in that region of the Caucasus.
"


Yes. What did unite us and differe us from the list?
It Is the strong sense of national and cultural awareness that armenians have had.

To stay pure in caucasus?? Armenia isnt just caucasus, but have lived in many other countries as well, and that is not just recently...after the genocide.

How come we have churches and communities all the way from India, France, and to Ethiopia? Wich are still running today?

[Anonymouse]

Your graph is beyond incorrect. The coons and gooks have left no genetic prints in the middle ages. Their inclusion is absurd.


Here's a correct one:

Pre-history:
90,000 BC to Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic periods.
Shengavit, Metsamor, Kura-Araxes ...

Period 1: Late Bronze Age
(a) Hayassa-Azzi /Hittites
(b) Rise of Hurro-Urartians
(c) Trojan War-Thraco-Phrygian (Armen) migration

Period 2: Separation of Proto-Armenian and Proto-Greek and the
appearance of Proto-Armenian in the northern Areas of Anatolia,
associated with Luwians and Hittites, possibly in the period from
2200-1900 BCE.

Period 3:
The Urartu State
Thenative Hurrian speaking people take the role of Western Peasants to the
Hurro-Urartian Upper Class while Armen peoples seem to be associated with the Nairi.

Period 4: The Scytho-Median overlordship
The destruction of Urartu gives the Armen tribes the chance to
expand and assume the mantle in the power vacuum of the Urartian
state. This is probably the period in which Hayk becomes
acknowledged as the "ancestor" of Hayassa.

Period 5: Persian Period when the name Armeniya becomes acknowledged as one of the Satrapies of the Persian Empire. This sees the
emergence of Armenian eventually as a literate language with an
adapted and modified Aramaean/Greek script, for the first time.

Period 6: Armenian-Roman-Parthian clashes & alliances
At this period many ancient peoples such as Galatians, Bythinians, Cappadocians, Cilicians etc. are assimilated within the Armenian and Greek ethnos.

Too bad you are too hung up with the 'nationalist' version of history to see the flaw in your pontificating, but I'll ignore it.