Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork City 19

[Federate]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

What's the point? Do you really think that those assasinations have been documented on the web? You perfectly know that it does not work that way. People have heard what they've heard and have seen what they have seen. If I find anything on the web then I'll post.
Not all who were assassinated were pro-Soviet. Trying that old defamation technique? Nice try.

So you are alleging unknown things without any sort of evidence. I can play that game too, so can the ARF and so can all the other political parties. Remember Vahan Vartabedian? I'm sure you don't. Or if that's too ancient history for you, how about Sarkis Zeitlian? But those are still in the past and we are at a critical point in our history where we have or supposed to have moved on. Yet, you continue baseless accusations of assassination that are happening at our present-time? Was it the same "Dro group" that were allegedly planning terrorist operations in Armenia ?

I didn't say anything about anyone being pro-Soviet other than Levon Tourian to which you have implicitly admitted to. I am just pointing out how people all of a sudden become patriots in the eyes of non-patriotic Armenians when there are accusations against the ARF. And why? Do you have in mind people who were allegedly assassinated that weren't pro-Soviet?

[Valerian2]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

So you are alleging unknown things without any sort of evidence. I can play that game too, so can the ARF and so can all the other political parties. Remember Vahan Vartabedian? I'm sure you don't. Or if that's too ancient history for you, how about Sarkis Zeitlian? But those are still in the past and we are at a critical point in our history where we have or supposed to have moved on. Yet, you continue baseless accusations of assassination that are happening at our present-time? Was it the same "Dro group" that were allegedly planning terrorist operations in Armenia ?

No i was not "alleging unknown things", I just said that those assasinations are not documented on the web and if I find anything then I'll post.There's no need to distort what I said.
Now can you prove that the Dro group did not commit crimes and have not planned to commit more? The ARF does not have a good reputation.
They also attempted to assassinate Armenians fighting for the recognition of the genocide. Of course you'll tell me that those were "patriots in the eyes of non-patriotic Armenians". That's what I call a poor defatmation campaign.
How about the hateful anti-Armenia campaign even after the independence?
yerazhishda's post reflect the true mentality of the ARF.

I didn't say anything about anyone being pro-Soviet other than Levon Tourian to which you have implicitly admitted to.

hahaha Nice try. When did I "implicitly admit" that the Arbp Levon Tourian was pro-Soviet? Please don't distort what I said and don't assume.

I am just pointing out how people all of a sudden become patriots in the eyes of non-patriotic Armenians when there are accusations against the ARF. And why? Do you have in mind people who were allegedly assassinated that weren't pro-Soviet?

hahaha Can it be that only those who agree with the ARF are patriots?

[Federate]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

No i was not "alleging unknown things", I just said that those assasinations are not documented on the web and if I find anything then I'll post.There's no need to distort what I said.

You have yet to provide a single source other than what you "hear" or "see" nor have you provided a single historic instance therefore it remains unknown and you hide your hot air by claiming it is not documented on the web.

Now can you prove that the Dro group did not commit crimes and have not planned to commit more? The ARF does not have a good reputation.

Show me which crimes did this alleged "Dro group" commit and then we'll start talking. Are you not aware that the "Dro group" was nothing but LTP's manipulation of the upcoming elections where the ARF was the main opposition group challenging his corrupt government?

"Gerard Libaridyan, an historian and close adviser of Ter-Petrossian, collected and presented the evidence against the defendants. He later stated in an interview that he was unsure if the evidence was true, inviting the notion that the party was banned because of its increasing chances of winning seats in the July 1995 parliamentary elections. Several months after the elections, most of the men were found not guilty with the exception of several defendants charged for engaging in corrupt business practices."

The ARF has enough of a good reputation to be the largest political party in the diaspora. Maybe you should've worded your sentence to something like "the ARF does not have a good reputation with me."

They also attempted to assassinate Armenians fighting for the recognition of the genocide. Of course you'll tell me that those were "patriots in the eyes of non-patriotic Armenians". That's what I call a poor defatmation campaign.

Again, another baseless accusation without any sort of evidence. They must've not documented this either .

How about the hateful anti-Armenia campaign even after the independence?

Care to elaborate?

hahaha Nice try. When did I "implicitly admit" that the Arbp Levon Tourian was pro-Soviet? Please don't distort what I said and don't assume.

"Not all who were assassinated were pro-Soviet", who are we talking about here, then? Tell me, what is so patriotic about Levon Tourian?

hahaha Can it be that only those who agree with the ARF are patriots?

Can it be that we are making assumptions? Not every Armenian is automatically a patriot.

[Valerian2]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

You have yet to provide a single source other than what you "hear" or "see" nor have you provided a single historic instance therefore it remains unknown and you hide your hot air by claiming it is not documented on the web.

I see that you like to repeat yourself. Please tell me what part of "those assasinations are not documented on the web and if I find anything then I'll post" you can't understand and I'll draw a picture. Deal?

Show me which crimes did this alleged "Dro group" commit and then we'll start talking. Are you not aware that the "Dro group" was nothing but LTP's manipulation of the upcoming elections where the ARF was the main opposition group challenging his corrupt government?

It's funny is that you keep asking me for evidence, yet you did not post a single link to support what you say. Why don't you practice what you preach and post links that proves that they were false accusations?
Maybe it was manipulated by LTP but it does not mean that the accusations were totally unfounded. To give an idea of what kind of people they were i'll share this
Drug trafficking: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-2297242.html

I don't remember well but wasn't Nairi Hunanyan at one point related to the ARF?

"Gerard Libaridyan, an historian and close adviser of Ter-Petrossian, collected and presented the evidence against the defendants. He later stated in an interview that he was unsure if the evidence was true,

hahaha Suddenly libaridian becomes a reference? What does that prove? One can never be sure "if the evidence was true". Welcome to the real world.

inviting the notion that the party was banned because of its increasing chances of winning seats in the July 1995 parliamentary elections. Several months after the elections, most of the men were found not guilty with the exception of several defendants charged for engaging in corrupt business practices."

If you think that the ARF ever had chances to win the elections then you're delusional.

The ARF has enough of a good reputation to be the largest political party in the diaspora. Maybe you should've worded your sentence to something like "the ARF does not have a good reputation with me."

hahaha You are delusional. You are confusing the most vocal with largest. That only proves that they are aggressive and have a big mouth.

Again, another baseless accusation without any sort of evidence. They must've not documented this either .

start with http://www.amazon.com/My-Brothers-Ro.../dp/1850436355

Care to elaborate?

The lobbying in Washington to punish a fragile Armenia. How shameful.
Read this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-3201247.html
Immediate Need to Counter ARF's Anti-Armenia Smear Campaign

"Not all who were assassinated were pro-Soviet", who are we talking about here, then? Tell me, what is so patriotic about Levon Tourian?

lol I did not know that there was clear way to prove that someone is patriotic or not. Can we have a mature conversation? Thanks.

Can it be that we are making assumptions? Not every Armenian is automatically a patriot.

What's your point? Are you trying to say something?

[Federate]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

I see that you like to repeat yourself. Please tell me what part of "those assasinations are not documented on the web and if I find anything then I'll post" you can't understand and I'll draw a picture. Deal?

The point is that you cannot go around with allegations and presenting them as facts. "Hearing and seeing" does not make something true. That is laughable in any discussion. Welcome to the real world.

It's funny is that you keep asking me for evidence, yet you did not post a single link to support what you say. Why don't you practice what you preach and post links that proves that they were false accusations?
Maybe it was manipulated by LTP but it does not mean that the accusations were totally unfounded. To give an idea of what kind of people they were i'll share this
Drug trafficking: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-2297242.html

You are the one claiming what you say is the truth therefore the burden of proof is on you and not me.

Both references you have used come from pro-government sources at a time of no freedom of speech in Armenia and at a time when LTP was in power. It's like using Soviet evidence in a mock trial. BTW, I do not deny that the ARF has its black spots but to lay so much crap on one party while ignoring the context and the situation of the time is foolish. We all know of the tit-for-tat violence in the Middle East between the three diasporan organizations and it was shameful.

I don't remember well but wasn't Nairi Hunanyan at one point related to the ARF?

Hunanyan was expelled long before the assassinations. Are you claiming the ARF was behind the 1999 plot?

hahaha Suddenly libaridian becomes a reference? What does that prove? One can never be sure "if the evidence was true". Welcome to the real world.

Libaridian becomes a reference when he is the presenter of the evidence. Libaridian specifically claiming that goes to show you that the charges were not concrete. You missed the part that said most of them were found not guilty outside of "corrupt business practices".

Here's the ARF's version of events http://www.arf.am/English/ARFNews/06/0601.htm

If you think that the ARF ever had chances to win the elections then you're delusional.

I agree, they had no chance to win. Armenian elections were going to be manipulated regardless. Even being the main opposition party at the time gave them no chance to win.

hahaha You are delusional. You are confusing the most vocal with largest. That only proves that they are aggressive and have a big mouth.

An example of a larger political party?

Assuming that this somehow proves that they are "aggressive and have a big mouth", how is that a bad thing? You want to remain passive in politics?

start with http://www.amazon.com/My-Brothers-Ro.../dp/1850436355

Thank you, this is what I am looking for. Though i'm sure ASALA-JCAG rivalry have nothing to do with Monte's (brother's) writings.

The lobbying in Washington to punish a fragile Armenia. How shameful.
Read this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-3201247.html
Immediate Need to Counter ARF's Anti-Armenia Smear Campaign

lol, didn't bother to check the source and date right? Propaganda at best, just look at the funny wording. The darkest years in Armenia were in 1996 btw and there were plenty of human rights violations in the country at the time. There seems to be no lobbying involved though and I believe everything that was done was against the LTP administration and not to Armenia itself. If that were true, I would be opposed to such a tactic.

lol I did not know that there was clear way to prove that someone is patriotic or not. Can we have a mature conversation? Thanks.

Then let's not throw the P-word at every chap, shall we?

[Valerian2]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

The point is that you cannot go around with allegations and presenting them as facts. "Hearing and seeing" does not make something true. That is laughable in any discussion. Welcome to the real world.

No one can't.
Let me put it this way: why do you think that I kept saying "those assasinations are not documented on the web and if I find anything then I'll post"?
Is there a need to google for a picture or will you finally make an effort to get it?

You are the one claiming what you say is the truth therefore the burden of proof is on you and not me.

You're funny. Are you saying that
"the "Dro group" was nothing but LTP's manipulation of the upcoming elections where the ARF was the main opposition group challenging his corrupt government"
is not "claiming...the truth therefore the burden of proof"?

Both references you have used come from pro-government sources at a time of no freedom of speech in Armenia and at a time when LTP was in power. It's like using Soviet evidence in a mock trial.

The Armenian Reporter is professional and independent enough and far more than any pro ARF media outlet that has ever existed. Please humor me.

BTW, I do not deny that the ARF has its black spots but to lay so much crap on one party while ignoring the context and the situation of the time is foolish. We all know of the tit-for-tat violence in the Middle East between the three diasporan organizations and it was shameful.

The ARF stands out. When it comes to other organizations it has been occasional, when it comes to the ARF it has been frequent.

Hunanyan was expelled long before the assassinations. Are you claiming the ARF was behind the 1999 plot?

I'm aware, but his affiliation and fascination for the ARF is typical to that kind of deranged and unstable people.

Libaridian becomes a reference when he is the presenter of the evidence. Libaridian specifically claiming that goes to show you that the charges were not concrete. You missed the part that said most of them were found not guilty outside of "corrupt business practices".

hahaha What evidence? He just said that "he was unsure if the evidence was true". I did not miss it, I just did not think that it was relevant for the point I was making: the ARF members have always been involved in shady illegal and criminal activities. I'm sorry if it's your party.

Here's the ARF's version of events http://www.arf.am/English/ARFNews/06/0601.htm

hahaha You discard the Armenian Reporter as biased and the only link that you provide is from arf.am!!!!!!!!!

I agree, they had no chance to win. Armenian elections were going to be manipulated regardless. Even being the main opposition party at the time gave them no chance to win.

Thank god that they never had a chance and let's pray that they will never have. Their popularity continues to decline.

An example of a larger political party?

Assuming that this somehow proves that they are "aggressive and have a big mouth", how is that a bad thing? You want to remain passive in politics?

The ramgavar/AGBU. Also they are in better terms with other minor parties, while the ARF has always agressed all other parties and they're paying the price. Civility and tolerance of others help even in politics where hypocrisy rules.
The ARF's popularity keeps declining and it's a good thing for Armenians.

Thank you, this is what I am looking for. Though i'm sure ASALA-JCAG rivalry have nothing to do with Monte's (brother's) writings.

You're welcome! I've heard of other accounts, and lol to repeat "those assasinations are not documented on the web and if I find anything then I'll post"

lol, didn't bother to check the source and date right? Propaganda at best, just look at the funny wording. The darkest years in Armenia were in 1996 btw and there were plenty of human rights violations in the country at the time. There seems to be no lobbying involved though and I believe everything that was done was against the LTP administration and not to Armenia itself. If that were true, I would be opposed to such a tactic.

Many Armenians newspapers covered the shameful anti-Armenia lobbying. I can't believe that this is the first time you hear about it because it lasted a while. Were you in a coma?

Then let's not throw the P-word at every chap, shall we?

I'll use when it's appropriate, but don't tell me who is patriotic and who is not. Thanks.

[Federate]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

You're funny. Are you saying that
"the "Dro group" was nothing but LTP's manipulation of the upcoming elections where the ARF was the main opposition group challenging his corrupt government"
is not "claiming...the truth therefore the burden of proof"?

http://www.arf.am/English/ARFNews/06/0601.htm#SupremeCour

The Armenian Reporter is professional and independent enough and far more than any pro ARF media outlet that has ever existed. Please humor me.

Because "worldwide campaign of vilification and mud slinging" is such professional and independent journalism

"[A]llegedly undermining human rights" is another funny one. The independent source at the time failed to realize that LTP was a de facto dictator?

The ARF stands out. When it comes to other organizations it has been occasional, when it comes to the ARF it has been frequent.

Many ARF members were shot dead and/or abducted in the Middle East and elsewhere. It has not been "occasional" for any organization, they all committed their crimes and the ARF only stands out in your eyes because of your hate for the party.

hahaha What evidence? He just said that "he was unsure if the evidence was true". I did not miss it, I just did not think that it was relevant for the point I was making: the ARF members have always been involved in shady illegal and criminal activities. I'm sorry if it's your party.

Yes it's a possibility members of the ARF, irrelevant to their party's ties, have been involved in narcotics trade.

It's not my party but I have great respect for it.

hahaha You discard the Armenian Reporter as biased and the only link that you provide is from arf.am!

Relax. I was providing you with their version of events so you could hear both sides of the story and not only the side you want to hear. Besides, the link also had a piece where it shows the ARF was cleared of any linking to the alleged "Dro group" by Armenia's supreme court...

Thank god that they never had a chance and let's pray that they will never have. Their popularity continues to decline.

And the Ramgavars and Hunchagians doesn't? lol.

The ramgavar/AGBU. Also they are in better terms with other minor parties, while the ARF has always agressed all other parties and they're paying the price. Civility and tolerance of others help even in politics where hypocrisy rules.
The ARF's popularity keeps declining and it's a good thing for Armenians.

The AGBU claims to be for all Armenians and is not a political party so let's leave it out. The Ramgavars in no way match the ARF's numbers and influence. The other parties have similarly been aggressive yet have not gained much coverage due to them being pretty small and irrelevant in the big picture of things.

Many Armenians newspapers covered the shameful anti-Armenia lobbying. I can't believe that this is the first time you hear about it because it lasted a while. Were you in a coma?

It's indeed interesting to hear this though I doubt the extent of the "anti-Armenia lobbying". That would not stand with many in the ARF, I think you are exagerrating and mixing "anti-Armenia" with "anti-Armenian government".

[Anoush]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

yes it's a shame and Arch Levon Tourian is not the only patriotic Armenian that the ARF has assasinated.The bad news is that they are continuing with their old ways.

Whether Tourian was assasinated by ARF was not true. I know for truth from my own grandfather's memoirs that it was allegations and holds no truth. Archbishop Tourian was the source that most of the Armenians were massacred in Smyrna, Turkey in 1922; because he himself told Armenians until the very last minute not to worry that there was not going to be any massacres or killings. He believed or wanted to believe the words of the British ambassador in Smirna who said that Kemal Attaturk is coming to Smyrna with white gloves (meaning not to kill). Yeah right, turks and white gloves. The Archbishop Tourian told to the Armenians not to worry time and again until the very last minute and because of it 130,000 Armenians were massacred in 1922 in Smyrna. Meanwhile Archbishop Tourian escaped from the back door of the Church and travelled to the United States ONLY saving himself. Therefore years later a few of the survivors from the Smyrna massacres remembered all this with vengence and killed him. But many wanted to find Tashnagtsoutyoun as the culprit and put a number of Tashnagtsagan young gentleman who were innocent in the prisons and let them rote. But Tashnagtsoutyoun didn't do it, Tashnagtsoutyoun had nothing to do with it. It was a lie.

I will dig into my own grandfather's memoirs if you wish to have more proof; but this is what transpired. What I am telling you now was the truth! My grandfather's memoirs are in Armenian, it has been translated lately in English, but I have to search for it if you must. I know all this for fact as my grandfather's uncle was Archbishop Tourian's assistant "Arachnortagan pokhanort Tourian Arkebisgobosin" and he was also left behind with the 130,000 Armenians who have been told by Archbishop Tourian NOT to worry there was not going to be any massacres; yet they were all annihilated by the attaturks.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

Whether Tourian was assasinated by ARF was not true. I know for truth from my own grandfather's memoirs that it was allegations and holds no truth. Archbishop Tourian was the source that most of the Armenians were massacred in Smyrna, Turkey in 1922; because he himself told Armenians until the very last minute not to worry that there was not going to be any massacres or killings. He believed or wanted to believe the words of the British ambassador in Smirna who said that Kemal Attaturk is coming to Smyrna with white gloves (meaning not to kill). Yeah right, turks and white gloves. The Archbishop Tourian told to the Armenians not to worry time and again until the very last minute and because of it 130,000 Armenians were massacred in 1922 in Smyrna. Meanwhile Archbishop Tourian escaped from the back door of the Church and travelled to the United States ONLY saving himself. Therefore years later a few of the survivors from the Smyrna massacres remembered all this with vengence and killed him. But many wanted to find Tashnagtsoutyoun as the culprit and put a number of Tashnagtsagan young gentleman who were innocent in the prisons and let them rote. But Tashnagtsoutyoun didn't do it, Tashnagtsoutyoun had nothing to do with it. It was a lie.

I will dig into my own grandfather's memoirs if you wish to have more proof; but this is what transpired. What I am telling you now was the truth! My grandfather's memoirs are in Armenian, it has been translated lately in English, but I have to search for it if you must. I know all this for fact as my grandfather's uncle was Archbishop Tourian's assistant "Arachnortagan pokhanort Tourian Arkebisgobosin" and he was also left behind with the 130,000 Armenians who have been told by Archbishop Tourian NOT to worry there was not going to be any massacres; yet they were all annihilated by the attaturks.

And we complain of Turks and their fancyful, invented histories.

[Anoush]

Re: Դուրեան Սրբազան Նահատակ, Նիւ Եորք 1933 (Arbp Levon Tourian Murder, NewYork Cit

And we complain of Turks and their fancyful, invented histories.

Cat; don't question the turks and how they masterminded the Armenian Genocide, after all they're the ones who did the Genocide from 1915 through 1923; however in some instances there was a few Armenians who kissed the behinds of the turks and have acted in extreme selfishness and have become or acted like traitors.

Tell me cat, in what nationality you will not find some traitors?

After all, it was the young turks who masterminded and carried out the Genocide. Let's say that Tourian in Smyrna have acted in extreme selfishness by saving his own skin and left the country while he acted like Judith towards his own people.