Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

[Hellektor]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

The representatives signed the treaty in Sèvres, France.
The treaty had four signatories, Rıza Tevfik, the grand vizier Damat Ferid Pasha, ambassador Hadi Pasha and the minister of education Reşid Halis who were endorsed by Sultan Mehmed VI. The treaty was not sent to Ottoman Parliament for ratification, as it was abolished on March 18, 1920 by the British, during the occupation of Istanbul. The treaty was never ratified by the Ottoman Empire.
Of the Principal Allied powers it excluded the United States. Russia was also excluded because it had negotiated the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk with the Ottoman Empire in 1918. In that treaty, at the insistence of the Grand Vizier Talat Pasha, the Ottoman Empire regained the lands Russia had captured in the Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878), specifically Ardahan, Kars, and Batumi. Sir George Dixon Grahame signed for Great Britain, Alexandre Millerand for France and Count Lelio Bonin Longare for Italy.
Among the other Allied powers; Greece did not accept the drawn borders and never ratified. Avetis Aharonian, the President of the Delegation of Democratic Republic of Armenia which also signed the Treaty of Batum on June 4, 1918 was the signature of this treaty.
So dont make eny stories,history can't bechanged.
With the great powers making games,Armenia were the last man to be spoken,it were diner with meal the ottoman lands.Intrests are biger than real problems of people till today.

It's not about the treaty of Sèvres. It's about the Wilson arbitral award and his report. He signed and sealed it (with the big seal of the Union, thus making it part of the law of the land of the United States of America) on November 22 1920. From that day on and according to the 89th and 90th articles of the treaty:

Article 89.
Turkey and Armenia, as well as the other High Contracting Parties agree to submit to the arbitration of the President of the United States of America the question of the frontier to be fixed between Turkey and Armenia in the Vilayets of Erzerum, Trebizond, Van and Bitlis, and to accept his decision thereupon (upon Wilson's signing of the report and NOT the ratification of the treaty, H.), as well as any stipulations he may prescribe as to access for Armenia to the sea, and as to the demilitarization of any portion of Turkish territory adjacent to the said frontier.

ARTICLE 90.
In the event of the determination of the frontier under Article 89 involving the transfer of the whole or any part of the territory of the said Vilayets to Armenia, Turkey hereby renounces as from the date of such decision (this renders the ratification or not of the treaty irrelevant to the decision of Wilson’s arbitration. H.) all rights and title over the territory so transferred. The provisions of the present Treaty applicable to territory detached from Turkey shall thereupon (upon the signing of the Wilson report. H.) become applicable to the said territory…

[Anoush]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

Shad shenorhagal enk Hell jan for ays orenskidaganoren Amerikayi garavaroutyunen genkevads Formi meg garevor mase terir hos vor desnenk. Ouremen "Wilson Arbitration Award".

[Hellektor]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

So you are waiting for help of USA after France and Russia. You will never learn.. Anyway, I think you should firstly populate ROA than later eastern Turkey.

As far as I'm concerned and since I constantly bring up the Wilson arbitration issue: it's not about populating Turk occupied Armenia with Armenians from one day to the next. It's not even about Turkey ceding it from one day to another. Here I briefly mention some benefits for Armenians (and Turks) if the Wilson border becomes reality:

I. It will force the Turk army to demilitarize the territory, taking its troops back hundreds of kilometers from the present location, lifting the danger of a probable attack on Armenia.

II. Thus, it will drive the final nail in the coffin of pan-Turkism, the actual policy behind forcing Armenia to cede historically Armenian territories to the sore “Azeri” losers and perpetrators of genocide and war, another variant of the species of invading hordes that happens to have usurped about 90% of historically Armenian land through genocide.

III. Armenia will have an outlet to international waters and the possibility to use the ports at the Black Sea, excluding the possibility of a blockade by Turkey like in the present situation.

IV. Using the ports, Armenia will have a direct transport route with Europe and Russia, forever getting rid of the caprices of the failed state of Georgia, along with fake “Azerbaijan”, the other mini empire of the Caucasus.

V. From the emotional point of view, Armenia will include Mount Ararat, Kars (and Ani), Van (and the lake), etc., once again.

VI. Turkey will have to regularly pay taxes to Armenia for all the pipelines that cross this territory, the very pipelines that were designed to bypass Armenia. This will provide an additional income for Armenia, boosting the economy.

VII. When this happens, Turkey will get rid of a huge part of the Kurdish problem and since the “Armenian wedge” will be too wide to destroy, hence, pan-Turkism will die a final death, this will force Turks to lose all delusion of their pan-Turkic empire and maybe, just maybe, they'll start to think healthy and look objectively at their bloody history. If this happens, it may herald the start of their metamorphosis from Turk to man.


On the negative side for Armenia, we have the Turk/Kurd population of the region. It will be lethal for Armenians if say, a million Turks/Kurds decide to move to Yerevan. I have a few scenarios/solutions regarding this and I will go into it in a future post. In any case, the politicians and law experts in Armenia should as of now think of ways to deal with this.

[Anoush]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

Hell jan, Artyok bidi garenank ays polori irakordsumnere desnel aynkan jamanag vorkan dagavin gabrink ays ashxarhi vera? Shad ge papakim!!!

[Hellektor]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

...it is important for us to know our history, to know about the Sevres Treaty and how the treaties of Lausanne and Kars tried to annul it.

The treaty of Sèvres is irrelevant here. It's about the Woodrow Wilson arbitral award and his report. This has been done with the agreement of the signatories who according to international law, still have the duty to enforce it.

This sort of agreed arbitral award is irrevocable. No country can annul it. It means we cannot take Kharbert, the rest of Van and Bitlis, Cilicia, Sebastia and Caesarea in the future!

In order to change/annul it if the need should arise, ALL the signing parties need to gather and sign the new treaty. Therefore, the Lausanne or Kars treaties in no way hold the power to even consider this.

The Kars treaty is illegal. Among several reasons, first of all because it grossly violates the jus cogens where two powers forced a third country to cede territory to the genocidal savages. But if they would dispute this, suffice be said in 1921 the genocidal bandit Kemal did not have the authority to sign a treaty concerning borders of a country, something ONLY the delegates of subjects of international law, i.e. legally recognized statesmen of a country can do. Kemal was an outlaw, condemned to death by mullahs and by the Ottoman government, the internationally recognized government of Turkey. His “republic” was only recognized in 1923, by the Lausanne treaty, hence until that moment whatever “treaties” he has taken part in are totally worthless and invalid, including the treaty of Kars.

As far as Lausanne, contrary to what we have been conditioned to believe, it's not really harmful for Armenians, quite the contrary, had there been mention of Armenia or Soviet borders in it, we would be in a situation comparable to that of Artsakh where despite the legality of Armenians' decision to leave the USSR, they constantly bully us by the illegal Soviet era border delineations.

I. There is no mention of Sèvres in the text of Lausanne, i.e. nowhere it is mentioned that Lausanne renders the treaty of Sèvres invalid. They couldn't either, because according to international law, all and only all the signatories of a treaty are eligible to sign a treaty, rendering a previous one void.

The signatories of Sèvres:

THE BRITISH EMPIRE, FRANCE, ITALY AND JAPAN,
...ARMENIA, BELGIUM, GREECE, THE HEDJAZ, POLAND, PORTUGAL, ROUMANIA, THE SERB-CROAT-SLOVENE STATE AND CZECHO-SLOVAKIA,
...of the one part;
...AND TURKEY,
of the other part;

The signatories of Lausanne:

THE BRITISH EMPIRE, FRANCE, ITALY, JAPAN, GREECE, ROUMANIA and the SERB-CROAT-SLOVENE STATE,
of the one part,
and TURKEY,
of the other part;

II. The treaty of Lausanne deals with the borders of Turkey with Bulgaria and Greece and there is not a single mention of borders with Soviet Armenia or the Soviet Union in general. This means it recognizes the borders drawn by another treaty and the only internationally legal document regarding that with Armenia is the Wilson arbitration.

III. In the articles 37 through 45 of the Lausanne treaty (SECTION III. PROTECTION OF MINORITIES) it shows how beneficial Lausanne actually is to Armenians, among other “minorities” of Turkey, and to what extent Turkey's savage behavior in destroying Armenian monuments (among other monstrosities committed against “minorities”, since 1923) is in breach of this same Lausanne treaty Turks shove in our faces every time we demand justice.

IV. While the drawing of the border between Turkey and Armenia was trusted by the signatories of Sèvres to the president of the United States of America, making the United States an integral part of the treaty of Sèvres, the good old US of A has to this very day (May 2009) refused to recognize the Lausanne treaty, mainly because Turkey has not fulfilled its obligations regarding the Armenian border.

From “Democratic Party Platform of 1924” Search for Lausanne Treaty:

“We condemn the Lausanne treaty. It barters legitimate American rights and betrays Armenia, for the Chester oil concessions. We favor the protection of American rights in Turkey and the fulfillment of President Wilson's arbitral award respecting Armenia.”

[Hellektor]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

Hell jan, Artyok bidi garenank ays polori irakordsumnere desnel aynkan jamanag vorkan dagavin gabrink ays ashxarhi vera? Shad ge papakim!!!

Yete mi or khelk@ glkhin u srdtsav bedutiun unenank, inchu che. Inch vor e, ays Serjer@, Levinner@ yev nmanner@ chen vor da anelu en. Mi ban vor bedk e gidaktsel da e vor Turk@ tshnami e yev g@ mna. Nra hamar arachnahert@ hygagan bedutian vochnchatsumn e ir pan-Turkagan zarantsankits snvelov. Miyain husank vor ays anbidan kaghakagan ayrer@ mi tiz hogh chdan Turkin yev yerp uzenan aydbes anel, bidi azg@ vodki yelni yev da batsari.

[Anoush]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

Yete mi or khelk@ glkhin u srdtsav bedutiun unenank, inchu che. Inch vor e, ays Serjer@, Levinner@ yev nmanner@ chen vor da anelu en. Mi ban vor bedk e gidaktsel da e vor Turk@ tshnami e yev g@ mna. Nra hamar arachnahert@ hygagan bedutian vochnchatsumn e ir pan-Turkagan zarantsankits snvelov. Miyain husank vor ays anbidan kaghakagan ayrer@ mi tiz hogh chdan Turkin yev yerp uzenan aydbes anel, bidi azg@ vodki yelni yev da batsari.

Ayo sireli Hellektor, shad shad iravounk ounis, yes al hents kez neman nouyn houzoumnerov ge dabgevim ou kez neman ge xorhim. Tereves ourishner mez xent hamaren, payts yes el gesem irents togh vor Rafii xenti neman xenter ellank - mer Hayreniki sirouyn hamar idealist xenter en bedk.

Yev shad iravounk ounis te sa mer garavaroutyune chi dsaxe mer gedor me hoghere Amerigayi gam Rousasdani hajuyk badjarelou hamar yev gam "power" ounenalu himar yev vad papaknerov derorvads. Yete esadsit bes himaroren esdorakre ays mer Serje vesdah bedk e Hayots ashxarhe yev havelyal ellalov "Diasporayi" Hayoutyune yerta yev var ichetsene ir atoren ays baron Sergin. Menk zoravor Hayrenaser garavaroutyun gouzenk aylabes voch meg ourish antsnavoroutyunner entouneli chen mez hamar.

[Anoush]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

Djisht yes al nouyn pane gesem polorin, vor sa turk esvads soghatsogh azkin yerpek ches gernar vesdahil. Asonk esadsit bes zarantsoume dagavin ou davagin ge darabin vor irents minchev arachvan mongolyai doune yertan (pan turkism)e vaz chen antsnir yev mer Hayasdane mishd gerogh gereva ays soghatsoghneroun achkin. Togh vor djehennem yertan yed irents mongolyan yev havidyan togh hon el genan. Anidsvads azk en ou mishd ge menan nouyn anidsvadsnere. Aveli djishte inchbes vor mer anmahagan Karekin Nejtehe esads e "ays Turkere ampox en yev voch azk - mi xarnidjaghang ampox", ou 100 dari hedo ge menan nouyn xarnidjaghang anidsvads ampoxe.

[Palavra]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

The treaty had four signatories, Rıza Tevfik, the grand vizier Damat Ferid Pasha, ambassador Hadi Pasha and the minister of education Reşid Halis who were endorsed by Sultan Mehmed VI. The treaty was not sent to Ottoman Parliament for ratification, as it was abolished on March 18, 1920 by the British, during the occupation of Istanbul. The treaty was never ratified by the Ottoman Empire.

Yep. So It does not bind ottomans. Because acording to ottoman law, only parliment can make such aggrements. Also before Brits abolised parliament(because of their refusal to accept serv), parliament accepted missaki milli.

Like ottomans, except greece, no parliament accepted this. Of course, You can talk about Rıza Tevfik, the grand vizier Damat Ferid Pasha, ambassador Hadi Pasha and the minister of education Reşid Halis about your wishes. But they are death. I hope, You wait more than you hope for talking them.

UrMistake jan, some of the odar people in here like bell-the-cat and Palavra you'd think they can read.

He just repeat what I said. I am realy curious what are you thinking when you are accusing as for same fact.. Ottoman parliament did not sign serv and only ottoman parliament had such right..

Londontsi jan, you put it well, turkey does know the relevance of Sevres Treaty Tashnakir; otherwise they won't be so nervous.

Haha. Turkey is making it a fuss for just turkish public. Nothing more.

Gavur jan, this man is obviously very nervous about us even mentioning the word Sevres Treaty

Please be serious, I already show you fact that “Armenia is the successor state of the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic,” So even Serv is legal(As you dreamed.), It is abolished by kars treaty and ROA accepted it. You can deny as much as you want but cant change reality. Sorry guys. You had not lamb of alaattin.

As far as I'm concerned and since I constantly bring up the Wilson arbitration issue: it's not about populating Turk occupied Armenia with Armenians from one day to the next. It's not even about Turkey ceding it from one day to another. Here I briefly mention some benefits for Armenians (and Turks) if the Wilson border becomes reality:

So tell me, how wilson armenia become reality?

I. It will force the Turk army to demilitarize the territory, taking its troops back hundreds of kilometers from the present location, lifting the danger of a probable attack on Armenia.

Ehm. Turkey can attack armenia even from sivas within 4-5 hour. It will not realy help ROA. You can gain some time but not battle.

II. Thus, it will drive the final nail in the coffin of pan-Turkism, the actual policy behind forcing Armenia to cede historically Armenian territories to the sore “Azeri” losers and perpetrators of genocide and war, another variant of the species of invading hordes that happens to have usurped about 90% of historically Armenian land through genocide.

Pan-Turkism is no more an alive ideology. It is as dreamy as your wilson armenia.

III. Armenia will have an outlet to international waters and the possibility to use the ports at the Black Sea, excluding the possibility of a blockade by Turkey like in the present situation.

How? who will protect armenian vehicles, If Turkish army retreat? Do you realy think native of these lands just watch you?

IV. Using the ports, Armenia will have a direct transport route with Europe and Russia, forever getting rid of the caprices of the failed state of Georgia, along with fake “Azerbaijan”, the other mini empire of the Caucasus.

too bad, no local will let it. If There is not Turkish army for you, There is not protection for trade too. Oh and armenia cannot protect his vehicles inside of Turkey even all military of ROA is inside of Turkey.

V. From the emotional point of view, Armenia will include Mount Ararat, Kars (and Ani), Van (and the lake), etc., once again.

do you know population of van and kars?

VI. Turkey will have to regularly pay taxes to Armenia for all the pipelines that cross this territory, the very pipelines that were designed to bypass Armenia. This will provide an additional income for Armenia, boosting the economy.

So You think It will become so near? You need at least 30 year.

VII. When this happens, Turkey will get rid of a huge part of the Kurdish problem and since the “Armenian wedge” will be too wide to destroy, hence, pan-Turkism will die a final death, this will force Turks to lose all delusion of their pan-Turkic empire and maybe, just maybe, they'll start to think healthy and look objectively at their bloody history. If this happens, it may herald the start of their metamorphosis from Turk to man.

Pan turkism is already forgetten. Even azeris would not join Turkey. Forget kazaks, ozbeks.

On the negative side for Armenia, we have the Turk/Kurd population of the region. It will be lethal for Armenians if say, a million Turks/Kurds decide to move to Yerevan. I have a few scenarios/solutions regarding this and I will go into it in a future post. In any case, the politicians and law experts in Armenia should as of now think of ways to deal with this.

I am realy curious about what is your solution. Your ROA will become our ROA If you have that land.

Anyway, noone can enforce wilson armenia to Turkey without a blood war. I do not see any nation who can win that war or want that war. Neither Russia nor USA will help you. Infact, I am curious If They have enough resource to occupy all Turkey.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Sevri Tashnakir vs. Karsi Tashnakir

You have quite an imagination Bells.............but you know the difference is that the Armenian dreamer is a liberator (the Good) but the Turkish dreamer is a conqueror (the Bad) and some of us are just, what can I say, coyote ugly.

Unrealisable good dreams are as bad as unrealisable bad dreams if you start to use those dreams to decide the future of a country.