"Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

[axel]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

So one should belittle one of the greatest writers in history because brits are essentially f*cking bastards? You don't really think this way, do you? You cannot possibly.

[crusader1492]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

So one should belittle one of the greatest writers in history because brits are essentially f*cking bastards? You don't really think this way, do you? You cannot possibly.

Just because your 9th grade teacher labeled him as "one of the greatest writers in history", it does not make it true.

Think of it this way...if you were born a Turk, you most likely would think Ataturk was the gratest leader ever produced by mankind.

[Armenian]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

Not that I disagree but isn't that just the kind of statement that gets all of Ara Baliozian's devoted non-fan base all riled up?

Not that I disagree but my statement is coming from an Armenian 'nationalist's' standpoint and not a 'self-hating/egotistical' standpoint...

[Armenian]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

I don't particularly like the English. I lived with them and I know them pretty well and quite frankly - I got no time for them. Of course, this is a generalisation and there are plenty of decent English folks, no doubt about that. BUT overall they are the most dishonest, the most two-faced, the most oppressive and racist people I've ever met...

Amrotz, while generally speaking I agree with your statement we must remember that the British (English, Scottish, Irish) are just as much victims of their financial/political elite as anyone else. There is an unseen elite that runs the UK, let's not confuse them with the average folk. The British elite have simply done everything in their power to secure their wealth and power, even to the detriment of other peoples, as all wealthy and powerful entities have done throughout history. Regarding racism, Britain is one of the most pluralistic/egalitarian societies on earth and has been for a long time. Relatively speaking, this was a fundamental reason why the British were able to set up colonies around the world without much blood spilling, unlike the Spaniards, Germans, Russian, Japanese, French, etc... The average Russian, German, French, Spaniard and Japanese are much more "racist" and violently more so than the average British. The British form of racism is namely their chauvinistic and supremest attitudes which are in essence traits derived from their past empire which ruled over third world savages for some time. However, their unique 'traits' have no weight when compared to other cultured/civilized nations, especially in Europe. In other words, the British were only able to feel "superior" in third world/primitive environments. Also note that the egalitarian and multicultural nature of British and American societies, along with some geopolitical factors, were one of main the reasons why the world has recently chosen English as its common language. So, let's please put these things in perspective.

Just because your 9th grade teacher labeled him as "one of the greatest writers in history", it does not make it true. Think of it this way...if you were born a Turk, you most likely would think Ataturk was the gratest leader ever produced by mankind.

Very true. It has to do with personal taste and exposure. And it also has to do with presentation. In other words, "don't believe the hype." Personally speaking I have never been impressed by English literature. In my opinion, some of the finest literatures in the world is found in Persian and Russian works. Sadly, however, I am only able to read them in their 'imperfect' English translations.

Very well now, let's get back on topic.

[axel]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

Just because your 9th grade teacher labeled him as "one of the greatest writers in history", it does not make it true.

Thank you crusader for your input. Quite enlightening.

Very true. It has to do with personal taste and exposure. And it also has to do with presentation. In other words, "don't believe the hype." Personally speaking I have never been impressed by English literature. In my opinion, some of the finest literatures in the world is found in Persian and Russian works.

If you knew about russian literature then you would be aware of the influence of, say, Lord Byron on Pushkin and Lermontov...

[Armenian]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

If you knew about russian literature then you would be aware of the influence of, say, Lord Byron on Pushkin and Lermontov...

Dude, this is getting silly. If you ask the French they would say they were the ones that influenced English literature. The Germans would claim the same thing, so would the Italians, Spaniards, Arabs, etc... The Germans, the French and the Italians have been by far the most prolific artists, musicians, writers, poets, scholars and scientists in the western world, if not the entire world. Modern "western culture" is essentially derived from the French, German and Italian culture - which were rooted of course in Etruscan and Greco-Roman tradition. Some scholars also claim that western literature has been heavily fertilized by Arabic/Ismalic tradition.

As great as Byron's work may have been it was not unique. At the time of Byron's life the western world was going through its enlightenment. The arts naturally evolve and grow due to cross fertilization, art does not evolve and grow in a 'national' vacuum. Nonetheless, your take on the matter reminds me of how 'proud' Americans boast about the 'uniqueness' of the American revolution without giving the revolutionary writers in 18th century France, the American founding father's true inspirations, any credit. Also, how Americans take credit for flight when some twenty years before the Wright Brothers took off in their primitive aircraft the the Russians had already done the same. There are many other examples.

I say again, this all has to do with environmental exposure and what propaganda you were exposed to growing up. Trust me, had you lived in France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc, you would have thought otherwise. Nevertheless, the "best" in literature, as in anything else for that matter, is quite relative to taste.

I personally do not like the works by Byron. They are too soft, too sensitive, too sissy for my taste. And I don't give two shits about his connection to Armenians.

My taste in literature: Hugo, Goethe, Solzhenitsyn, Tolstoy, Rumi, Charents, Sevak, Raffi - just to name a few.

And the classical Persians and Arabs were perhaps the most prolific writers and poets in human history.

So let's not start talking about who influenced who...

[Armenian]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

Getting back on topic. I just posted this in Hetq Online.

God knows what really happened. There are three sides to every story, his side, their side and the truth. In my opinion, what this character Armen is doing - publicly - is a shame. He is revealing very irresponsible and childish behavior. His actions may in the long run hurt other well meaning diasporan Armenians in Artsakh. I personally know several people who have started businesses in Artsakh - 'without' serious problems. However, let's face it Armenia/Arstakh - the Caucasus - is not Western Europe. So let's act like adults and place these matters into a proper perspective. Sadly, some of the comments here are pathetic, disgusting, it's a shame Armenians like this exist. In my opinion, Haytoug expresses the only opinion here that a self-respecting Armenian can agree with. I am not trying to excuse or turn a blind eye to corruption in Armenia. However, corruption is ubiquitous in the world, especially in developing nations. The western world has already traveled the rocky road Armenia is on currently. It' is our responsibility as Armenians to understand these historic nuances. In my opinion, diasporans should be more responsible for their actions while in the fatherland, and not expect white glove treatment. Although I'm a diasporan Armenian, I also believe that some diasporans are a security threat for Armenia/Artsakh. Nevertheless, Armenia, as a nation-state, has many-many problems. A mess that took a thousand years to create will not be cleaned up in a few short years. Note: I suggest self-hating Armenians here first take into consideration the serious corruptions that exists in their respective countries of residence before irrationally and irresponsibly attacking their fatherland.

Reading the various comments there made me very upset. It has basically reinforced the notion in me that a vast majority of Armenians in this world are self-serving, self-hating, egotistical, ignorant, filth. I only pray to God that once our geopolitical problems are taken care of one day - a thorough cleansing of our internal garbage takes place.

[Virgil]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

Assuming that everyone is corrupt, does it change the fact that Armenians must fight for change? Ofcourse not, the United States is a the end product of almost 300 years of lobbying by the people, for the people and even today, American democracy is still developing, essentially, the ideas of "property rights, freedom, and justice" are not the foundations of a democractic state, they are the goal and destination.

Media is a destabilizing agent used by foreigners. The reality is that in most states the media can never be trusted, they may present a counter argument, but in the end, the goal of the media is to win the hearts and minds of the citizens in the respective state.

In the case of Armenian media, the Diaspora is being used as a destabilizing agent and, therefore, any information out of Armenia should be questioned. And the only way democracy will be acheived in Armenia is the same way it was acheived in the United States, it will be built upon the blood, sweat, and tears shed by the people, the micro struggles, from the development of a simple health code to the complexities of a new tax code, these are the sums that add up to the "ideal democractic nation". Only the citizens in Armenia can choose the destiny of the Armenian people, not the Diaspora and certainly, not foreign nationals.

[axel]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

Armenian,
At least this conversation demonstrates you are quite apt at defending the indefensible. It started out with the very special climate and mentality in the "fatherland". Now it goes on with Shakespeare being equated with "mongrel literature".

I personally do not like the works by Byron. They are too soft, too sensitive, too sissy for my taste.

You know, Byron, I couldn't care less. But characterizing it as "sissy literature" while listing Goethe among your favorites (in second place!). Seems like you haven't read Werther.

I say again, this all has to do with environmental exposure and what propaganda you were exposed to growing up. Trust me, had you lived in France, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc, you would have thought otherwise

Eh bien, il se trouve justement que...

So let's not start talking about who influenced who...

In this particular instance I mentioned, it was from the authors' own words.

does it change the fact that Armenians must fight for change?

Definitely not. If patriots do not address these issues openly and fermly, worse, attempt to cover them up or find excuses, this will play in the hands of foreign forces. It is vital for the nation that the xxxx surface and be confronted with (by national forces) and not be swept under the carpet by "true nationalists".

[Armenian]

Re: "Harsh reality" (HR) or "Armenian National Interest"(ANI)???

Armenian, At least this conversation demonstrates you are quite apt at defending the indefensible. It started out with the very special climate and mentality in the "fatherland". Now it goes on with Shakespeare being equated with "mongrel literature".

The "mongrel" thing I can't defend or explain. Perhaps Amrotz could explain himself better. However, the fatherland thing is another story... Having said that, it seems as if you are more familiar with 'English' literature than with 'Armenian' literature. Hence, Amrotz's ire. And in this instance, I agree with him.

You know, Byron, I couldn't care less. But characterizing it as "sissy literature" while listing Goethe among your favorites (in second place!). Seems like you haven't read Werther.

You were the one that brought up Byron, not me. Moreover, wasn't Byron also though to be a pedophile and a bisexual? Anyway, the partial list of writers I provided did not mean to be in any specific order. And no, I have not read the Goethe's work Werther. However, the work in question only goes to show you just how 'versatile' of a writer Goethe was

If patriots do not address these issues openly and fermly, worse, attempt to cover them up or find excuses, this will play in the hands of foreign forces. It is vital for the nation that the xxxx surface and be confronted with (by national forces) and not be swept under the carpet by "true nationalists".

Before you turn into another 'Caped Crusader' first do us all "true nationalists" a favor by investigating all sides of the story. In other words, don't jump the gun just because a snot-nosed nerdy Fransahai is whining about corruption. Corruption...? Heck, taking the historiography of the region into serious consideration it would have been absolutely 'inhuman' had there was no high levels of corruption in the region.

And the inaccurate notion that the Armenian Republic has high corruption and/or no democracy also plays right into the hands of "foreign forces." So, what you claimed is a double edged blade. I suggest you be careful with your rhetoric. As a matter of fact, this is precisely the reason why so many western NGOs have been set up in former Soviet states, namely to meddle in the domestic affairs of these developing nations - naturally using the pretext of protecting "human rights", "democracy", "freedom of speech", etc...

As I predicted, as the elections in Armenia nears we will hear and see much more uglier developments. There are forces that want to topple the pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in Yerevan at all costs. And since these antagonists cannot use force against Armenia they will attempt to use the people's sentiments, the feelings of the ignorant masses, against the ruling administrators.

Like I said, corruption is ubiquitous in the world, especially within developing nations. Do you want to place corruption/crime in a proper perspective? I suggest you study the socio-political evolution of New York City, the current capitol of the world. Yes, let's fight corruption in our homeland but let's do it sensibly, responsibly and let's realize that a mess that took a thousand years to create will not be cleaned up in a few short years...

Axel, I thought you were smarter than this...

Welcome back nevertheless