Political prisoners in Armenia

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Actually I have been to Van and other parts of Western Armenia, which are today heavily populated by the Kurds. So your "obvious" again flies out the window.

Same difference. Never set a foot outside the shelter of your tour bus or tourist hotel on your own.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

The above is garbage. Kurdish is now feeely spoken eveywhere in Turkey, including TV, films, and radio, and in eastern Turkey it is so widely spoken in public that any Turks living there must think they are now living in a foreign land (whether they de facto actually are or not, is one aspect the "Kurdish problem"). Of course nowhere in Turkey is an historical "Kurdistan": every Kurd is, in the overal history of population movements, a relative newcomer, though Kurdish "historians" (who outdo even Azeris in their fabrications) come up with wild claims to the contrary.

And how long have they been able to do so? a few months?

[Anoush]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

To be an 'authority' in a democracy you first have to be democratically elected, which the current regime hasn't and it was 'born' from the butchery of innocent Armenians that spoke out against rigged elections and the need for wider social and political freedoms.

I understand what you mean Catharsis.

[Catharsis]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

The above is obviously written by a person who has never set foot in eastern Turkey.

Actually I have been to Van and other parts of Western Armenia, which are today heavily populated by the Kurds. So your "obvious" again flies out the window.

During the 1990s Kurdish was very rarely spoken in public, even in an all-Kurdish context (such as on buses) and was limited to islolated villages and a (declining) domestic environment. As official restrictions more or less ended in the early parts of this decade, and as those who would inflict the unofficial punishment of "offenders" either lost their power (village guards) or withdrew (various gendarme, military and paramilitary groups), the use of Kurdish both in public and private increased massively.

The Kurds en masse have never stopped speaking to each other in Kurdish in "Kurdistan." This is not restricted to "isolated villages." You are describing the measures taken by the Turkish government to "enforce" something that was never successfully enforced and remained that only a bad attempt that never worked.

Other signs of "Kurdishness" such as clothing, marriage ceremonies, folk festivals, have also become far more open and widespread. Kurdish music and films in Kurdish are now freely seen everywhere in Kurdish populated areas. Of course there are political limits and the population knows the limits, and there are always reactionaryTurks who try to behave like nothing has changed and use every device (such as silly "illegal letters" law) to pretend nothing actually has changed.

So why are many Kurds dissatisfied with the Turkish government and are saying they are undergoing a cultural genocide? The reality remains, Turks view Kurds as a minority that needs to be eradicated. The "cultural freedoms" you listed above have been made to appease the international opinion and nothing more. The Turkish government's agenda when it comes to the "Kurdish question" has remained the same.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

No it is not. Kurds have always spoken the Kurdish language with each other. This is not what I said, read the statement above carefully.

The above is obviously written by a person who has never set foot in eastern Turkey.

During the 1990s Kurdish was very rarely spoken in public, even in an all-Kurdish context (such as on buses) and was limited to islolated villages and a (declining) domestic environment. As official restrictions more or less ended in the early parts of this decade, and as those who would inflict the unofficial punishment of "offenders" either lost their power (village guards) or withdrew (various gendarme, military and paramilitary groups), the use of Kurdish both in public and private increased massively. Other signs of "Kurdishness" such as clothing, marriage ceremonies, folk festivals, have also become far more open and widespread. Kurdish music and films in Kurdish are now freely seen everywhere in Kurdish populated areas. Of course there are political limits and the population knows the limits, and there are always reactionaryTurks who try to behave like nothing has changed and use every device (such as silly "illegal letters" law) to pretend nothing actually has changed.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

The unfortunate truth is that there is nothing that is happening in Armenia that is not also happening in supposedly "democratic" countries in the West. Like the Kalaydjian case, there are plenty of people in America held for allegedly planning to kill Obama, simply on the basis of an off-hand or overheard comment, even though the accused had done no planning and had no means to actually try to carry it out. And plenty more are held on similar "evidence" for losts of other charges. And, like the Sukhudian case below, in Britain the police are on record saying that they class all civil activists as potentual "domestic terrorists", film them and and enter their details on a database alongside actual terrorists.

RFE/RL Armenia Report - 10/21/2009

Defiant Activist Spurns Police Amnesty


Armenia -- Civic activist Mariam Sukhudian after a police
interrogation on October 21, 2009.

21.10.2009
Hasmik Smbatian
A young civic activist who triggered a scandal about alleged sexual
and other abuse at a Yerevan boarding school said Wednesday that she
has turned down a police offer to ask for a pardon and thus avoid
trial on controversial libel charges.

Mariam Sukhudian, a leader of the environment protection group SOS
Teghut, was among about a dozen young people who worked in April-June
2008 as volunteers at Boarding School No. 11 for children with special
needs located in the Nubarashen suburb. In their subsequent public
statements, they accused the school administration of failing to
ensure the minimal standards of teaching and hygiene and routinely ill-
treating and students.

They also cited some schoolgirls as alleging sexual harassment by one
of their teachers. Sukhudian videotaped one of those girls,
subsequently identified a Diana Amirkhanian, and alerted Armenian
media about her claims. The school administration strongly denied the
allegations.

An ensuing police investigation cleared the school administration and
the teacher in question, Levon Avagian, of any wrongdoing, saying that
Amirkhanian withdrew her allegations. The police then accused
Sukhudian of persuading the girl, who graduated from the school in
June 2008, to falsely incriminate her teacher for `personal gain.' The
activist was formally charged in August 2009 with `false
denunciation,' a crime punishable by up to five years in prison.

The police informed Sukhudian and her lawyer, Nona Galstian, on
Wednesday that the charge has been replaced by a less grave accusation
of `slander' that carries heavy fines and prison sentence of up to
three years.

According to Sukhudian, a police investigator also said that the case
against her will be dropped altogether if she agrees to qualify for a
general amnesty declared by the Armenian authorities earlier this
year. `I told him that I don't consider myself guilty and demand the
prosecution of the real criminals,' she said, speaking to journalists
outside the police headquarters of the Nubarashen and Erebuni
districts. She said she is not afraid of facing trial and the
possibility of imprisonment.

`The new accusation is as baseless as the previous,' Galstian said,
for her part. `We believe that the police are still not doing anything
to solve the crimes committed in the school and punish the real
culprits.'

The lawyer added that the police have refused her demands for a joint
face-to-face interrogation of her client and Amirkhanian on the
grounds that the latter is not in Armenia at the moment. She and
Sukhudian claim that the young woman was bullied into withdrawing her
allegations against the teacher.

The case against Sukhudian has been condemned by Armenia's leading
human rights organizations. They say Armenian boarding schools, which
are primarily supposed to educate for orphans and disabled children,
have long been notorious for their lack of transparency, poor sanitary
conditions and ill-treatment of students.

[Catharsis]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

The above is garbage. Kurdish is now feeely spoken eveywhere in Turkey, including TV, films, and radio, and in eastern Turkey it is so widely spoken in public that any Turks living there must think they are now living in a foreign land (whether they de facto actually are or not, is one aspect the "Kurdish problem").

No it is not. Kurds have always spoken the Kurdish language with each other. This is not what I said, read the statement above carefully.

Genocide of the Kurdish Language, Forcibly by the Turkish Government has violated the Turkish and the United Nations Laws.

The Turkish PM does not accept Kurdish as a mother tongue, and the Turkish Prime Minister Tayip Erdogan thinks that economic factor is only a solution to solve the Kurdish issue in North Kurdistan (Kurdistan of Turkey). The Kurdish demands were presented such as political and the use of mother tongue in education system (1).

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles...distan2176.htm

Of course nowhere in Turkey is an historical "Kurdistan": every Kurd is, in the overal history of population movements, a relative newcomer, though Kurdish "historians" (who outdo even Azeris in their fabrications) come up with wild claims to the contrary.

We are not talking about the Kurdish origins as you have taken upon yourself to give us your "authoritative say." We are talking about the current treatment of Kurdish minority in Turkey, which actually goes BEYOND language (even that is curtailed in the educational system), but includes attempts by the Turkish government to assimilate the Kurds. Are you denying this? Are you actually claiming that the Turkish government is not pursuing this policy?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Absolutely, the Kurds in Turkey are as persecuted as ever. The Turkish government has simply adopted a more subtle way to "deal" with "the Kurdish question." However, long term it seems Kurds are poised to become a majority in Turkey even facing all kinds of obstacles and attempts to forcefully assimilate them.

The above is garbage. Kurdish is now feeely spoken eveywhere in Turkey, including TV, films, and radio, and in eastern Turkey it is so widely spoken in public that any Turks living there must think they are now living in a foreign land (whether they de facto actually are or not, is one aspect the "Kurdish problem"). Of course nowhere in Turkey is an historical "Kurdistan": every Kurd is, in the overal history of population movements, a relative newcomer, though Kurdish "historians" (who outdo even Azeris in their fabrications) come up with wild claims to the contrary.

[Catharsis]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

Also what about the Kurds, last time I checked they are at least 1/3 or a 1/4 of Turkey's population yet their party is banned and they have virtually no voting rights, Kurds votes are even rigged by the Turkish government. Also I read once that Turks beat up their fellow Kurdish MP's even in government.

Of course this is for their great 'crimes':
*Saying they are [s]Armenians[/s] Kurds not Turks
*Speaking [s]Armenian[/s]Kurdish
*Having unique culture and traditions
^
And they say Turks run a tolerant, secular democracy....let me check my dictionary which I will have to re-write to call everyone who wants to be free and equal evil, and in addition re-write it to say that democracy itself must be used as a tool for a majority to oppress and even destroy its minorities.

Absolutely, the Kurds in Turkey are as persecuted as ever. The Turkish government has simply adopted a more subtle way to "deal" with "the Kurdish question." However, long term it seems Kurds are poised to become a majority in Turkey even facing all kinds of obstacles and attempts to forcefully assimilate them.

[hipeter924]

Re: Political prisoners in Armenia

To be an 'authority' in a democracy you first have to be democratically elected, which the current regime hasn't and it was 'born' from the butchery of innocent Armenians that spoke out against rigged elections and the need for wider social and political freedoms.

Also what about the Kurds, last time I checked they are at least 1/3 or a 1/4 of Turkey's population yet their party is banned and they have virtually no voting rights, Kurds votes are even rigged by the Turkish government. Also I read once that Turks beat up their fellow Kurdish MP's even in government.

Of course this is for their great 'crimes':
*Saying they are [s]Armenians[/s] Kurds not Turks
*Speaking [s]Armenian[/s]Kurdish
*Having unique culture and traditions
^
And they say Turks run a tolerant, secular democracy....let me check my dictionary which I will have to re-write to call everyone who wants to be free and equal evil, and in addition re-write it to say that democracy itself must be used as a tool for a majority to oppress and even destroy its minorities.