Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I agree that Monte would be outraged by the statements that were coming out of Yerevan not very long ago. I suppose this outrage towards the choices made by our leadership is normal.

However, for Armenia to become Greater Armenia again someday, it cannot jump westwards, all by itself, against the Turkish army and expect to come out alive. It is just senseless to try such a thing. Even if Turkey had deadly internal problems and had to dedicate a lot of her army on another front, Armenia would at the least need a powerful ally who joined in the warfare to successfully gain control over Western Armenia.

As things stand now, Russia would not attack Turkey unless Nato wanted to use Turkey to stage an attack on Russia, which doesn't sound like something either side would like to happen. In fact, Turkey is an important economic partner of Russia and given the balance of power between Nato and Russia in this region, both sides would much rather stabilize the region than to ignite causes for warfare. This is a scenario where if Armenia becomes too chauvinistic, or that she pursues her own interests to a degree that angers the superpowers she is sitting between, she will bear the classic punishment by both Turkey and Russia together. We've already experienced this and it's the reason why we lost Kars, Nakhitchevan and for a time, Artsakh. I for one would not like to lose another piece of our country and dedicate another 100 years to try to get that extra added loss back. We must focus on what we have, and make it stronger, keep the unity of Armenians so that we can endure the times and strike at a better time. I would much more prioritize diplomatically bringing Javakh into greater proximity to Armenia than to load up guns and go after Nakhitchevan.

There's a good reason why a couple of people and I talk about Naxichevan. Firstly, it is too bad that Armenia's government didn't do anything after the whole world viewed on broad daylight how the tatars "azeris" demolished our 2,500 Xachkars. Our government then could have made a good deal about it and convince the Western world that since Stalin gave that land to the tatars to please Attaturk, and since the tatars are abusing and demolishing our cultural monuments from the middle ages, then we could've tried to get Naxichevan back hopefully without a war. Secondly, getting Naxichevan and having Artsax to be accepted by the world powers we would then stand the good chance of a stronger Armenia and the turks' dreams of pan-turkism would be hopefully demolished.

If our government would be able to get back our Javakhk, especially when Georgia is neglecting the Armenians in there, it would be that much better for Armenia to expand from the North. In any case Javakhk was ours.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Jgk; what I would like to see though that our newer generations of Armenians in Armenia that have a great deal assymilated to Russians, to have them completely educated and knowledgeable about our vast history, also the last 100-200 years history. The same goes with our Diasporan Armenians. Both in Armenia and in the Diaspora; we have to have our newer generation of Armenians to be better educated, to be more patriotic and not just Russian lovers and in the Diaspora Western lovers; but to be more patriotic Armenians. This I find is lacking within Armenians of today. This is extremely important for us now. And I don't know why our government is not working on these important matters in there.

[jgk3]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

This is why I always say it is up to us to lead our own people by teaching them about our culture, history, to encourage them to think about Armenia, to appreciate who were are and what has kept us alive and energetic together even against the most discouraging of circumstances.

Any government that's in the power is also a reflection of what kind of people it is governing, so if the government is getting away with things we don't like, it must be taken as an act made on behalf of the Armenian people themselves. Thus the people we need to reach out to are definitely not only the members of parliament, and we know this already. It is easy to forge divisions between ourselves based on political views, so we must be careful in our approach, we can't ever feel like we know everything there needs to be known and yell at someone who does not agree because they don't accept our arguments which make so much sense to us. I think we need to show them that we are willing to help them out first, I think that's fundamental to helping our voice get heard by them, otherwise we will just be caste off as some other guy who talks big but in the end is just self absorbed in their own ideas and desires.

As for Nakhitchevan, because of the legal status as a protectorate of Turkey, it is not as simple of an issue as fighting for Artsakh. Artsakh was a place where we could fight and defeat Azeris, Nakhitchevan is a place where we could face the full wrath of Turkey's army. We have neither the numbers, the technology and equipment, nor the foreign support to face them. Our morale would be quickly defeated, and Turkey would have the pretext to invade the RoA proper if we tried such a thing. It would not take them that long to take Yerevan. If Russia came to our aid, this would trigger a worldwide conflict. This is why Nakhitchevan is a no-no for me, at least for the foreseeable future, as Armenian would say.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

This is why I always say it is up to us to lead our own people by teaching them about our culture, history, to encourage them to think about Armenia, to appreciate who we are and what has kept us alive and energetic together even against the most discouraging of circumstances.

If every young Armenian at least in the Diaspora was as eager to be informed and as patriotic as the young gents and the ladies of this Forum, we would have nothing to worry about. I am honestly proud of all of you young people who think so much about our stance. I honestly hope that the newer generation of the Armenians in our motherland would be like you people, then we wouldn't have to worry about much.

Any government that's in the power is also a reflection of what kind of people it is governing, so if the government is getting away with things we don't like, it must be taken as an act made on behalf of the Armenian people themselves.

Yes you're right. It is a fact that the government also represents the people. That is why I say that the newer generation of the Armenians are assymilated in our motherland. They speak Russian a great deal and they are Russianized more than they are Armenians. They should be thaught a good deal how to be patriotic Armenians than speaking and thinking Russian as much as they do. Unfortunately the 75 years of the Russian Communism regime that governed our country did some harms to us. How could they break it away to become more Armenians (knowing well their history, to preserve our culture and be proud Armenians and patriots). I wish the government starts educating the poeple and working towards these said points and soon.

Thus the people we need to reach out to are definitely not only the members of parliament, and we know this already. It is easy to forge divisions between ourselves based on political views, so we must be careful in our approach, we can't ever feel like we know everything there needs to be known and yell at someone who does not agree because they don't accept our arguments which make so much sense to us. I think we need to show them that we are willing to help them out first, I think that's fundamental to helping our voice get heard by them, otherwise we will just be caste off as some other guy who talks big but in the end is just self absorbed in their own ideas and desires.

I hear your points jgk and it is well taken.

As for Nakhitchevan, because of the legal status as a protectorate of Turkey, it is not as simple of an issue as fighting for Artsakh. Artsakh was a place where we could fight and defeat Azeris, Nakhitchevan is a place where we could face the full wrath of Turkey's army. We have neither the numbers, the technology and equipment, nor the foreign support to face them. Our morale would be quickly defeated, and Turkey would have the pretext to invade the RoA proper if we tried such a thing. It would not take them that long to take Yerevan. If Russia came to our aid, this would trigger a worldwide conflict. This is why Nakhitchevan is a no-no for me, at least for the foreseeable future, as Armenian would say.

Yes the turks will be right on our face if we tried unfortunately; but if we demand and get the legal Wilsonian Armenia then Naxichevan will be right in it anyhow.

[jgk3]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I agree, I think our best bet is to educate Armenians about Wilsonian Armenia, our historic heritage to those lands. I think it's important to have a strong political movement like the Tashnaks who will never let this struggle be lost.

I also think that we can partake in cultural or academic pursuits that would also improve us and our civilization to stand out more in the eyes of the world, which is important too for our struggle. We don't just want to be militant, we also want to be interesting, don't we? :P

Personally, using my skills in linguistics, I would like to explore Armenian dialectology and compile a document together on it. Unfortunately, I am probably a few decades late of living in a world where I could still meet with enough Armenians from all our historic regions to do the most thorough and accurate work possible. Nonetheless, the longer I wait, the more difficult I expect it to be to capture what is left of the dialects that flourished before the genocide.

I see myself starting by becoming current in WA and EA, and Krapar to have some kind of foundation to start on, but later on I want to compile some solid documents dealing with the dialectal differences we still see today between different sub-communities of Armenians, and explore (if I can) older ones that were naturally most active prior to the genocide.

I would also like to explore the influence that Turkish, Arabic, Persian, English, French, Russian and so forth have had on our different Armenian speech communities. Not just in the sense of loan words, but also the differences in grammatical structure, like word ordering, or how we compound words or particles of words together in ways that suggest that we've been influenced by another language that was current in the region. I think this could shed a lot of light on how human beings learn language in general given their linguistic environment, the influence of having Armenian schools that teach standard Armenian available in the region (where you tend to find Armenians being bi-dialectal, knowing both standard Armenian and also their more current variety used in the every day) as opposed to when they are not available (where I'd expect to find the most eccentric usages of Armenian as there is no official center to conform the language to Standard Armenian.

This would be fun for all Armenians to know about, and it could serve as a nice database to understand eachothers' distinct usages of Armenian better, and to perhaps have a better understanding on the origins of these differences

[Eddo211]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Nakhitchevan; this enclave Armenian historical land (given as a gift by Stalin to please Turkey and use as an Anti-imperialist tool) that has nothing to do with fake "Azerbaijani territory"………….from beginning of the century to today stands as an extreme strategic importance administratively bordering Turkey for political reasons only.

Quotes by Monte Melkonian.

"Peace cannot be established in a region as long as absurd frontiers exist………..as long as absurd decisions are forced upon the people."

"It is amazing to me that the world assumes a Stalinist position on Artsakh"

jqk3, great posts.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Nakhitchevan; this enclave Armenian historical land (given as a gift by Stalin to please Turkey and use as an Anti-imperialist tool) that has nothing to do with fake "Azerbaijani territory"………….from beginning of the century to today stands as an extreme strategic importance administratively bordering Turkey for political reasons only.

Quotes by Monte Melkonian.

"Peace cannot be established in a region as long as absurd frontiers exist………..as long as absurd decisions are forced upon the people."

"It is amazing to me that the world assumes a Stalinist position on Artsakh"

The reason is obvious; it's because of turkey. The world, especially the Western world spoil turkey either from the West and also the Russians. How lucky those turks are, it's amazing.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I'll PM you Jgk where you can find the sources of the linguistic influences that had impact on the Armenian language.

Yes definitely to strengthen in academics and in cultural knowledge and to enhance it in the RA and in the Diaspora will be very beneficial for us.

[Eddo211]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

The reason is obvious; it's because of turkey. The world, especially the Western world spoil turkey either from the West and also the Russians. How lucky those turks are, it's amazing.

They and their military might are nothing but puppets………to be used a tool to police the ME. They have no friends.

Their day will come………..meanwhile we must grow strong as you and jqk3 suggest.
A dirrect route is not always the best choice.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

They and their military might are nothing but puppets………to be used a tool to police the ME. They have no friends.

Their day will come………..meanwhile we must grow strong as you and jqk3 suggest.
A dirrect route is not always the best choice.

You're right Eddo jan, their day will come but when? I want to see that day while we're still living paregam. I wish, I hope.