Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

[hipeter924]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Nationalism can be dangerous at times especially in the case of Serbian nationalism and the breakup of Yugoslavia. But we have to keep in mind Nationalism forms and defends a nation, which in that case can be a positive force. Everyone has the right to love their country, but I don't think people have the right to hate nations or ethnic groups that have done nothing to them. That's what happened in the Ottoman Empire, they committed genocide against the Armenian's because their hate got the better of them.

[Eddo211]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Some info guys:

Patriotism is not a political movement like nationalism or ultra-nationalism. Certain politicians or parties might claim to be "patriotic" but patriotism itself never defines a non-nationalist party. Nationalism itself is a relatively recent political development that accompanied the development of nation-states roughly two centuries ago. At its most fundamental level, nationalism defines common identity/values (which may or may not be expressed in ethnic/cultural terms) that is or should be shared by all citizens of the nation-state. This is a good thing and our hardliner Dashnak party fits in this category.

Ultra-nationalism is another beast. It is not just a case of taking the above to the extreme but the shifting of nationalism to the very centre of the political agenda. For ultra-nationalists everything is viewed through the prism of nationalism and the need to increase the status/power/integrity of the nation at all costs foreign or domestic. Some Ultra-Nationalistic leaders were the kinds of Benito Mussolini, whose Fascists seized power in Italy in 1922, Adolf Hitler, whose Nazis took over Germany in 1933.
Ultra-nationalism was the most important single cause of WWI, becoming even more potent and poisonous in the 1920s and 1930s, leading to a second world war. In Italy and Germany extreme nationalism was the driving force behind rightwing, antidemocratic movements and in Japan, ultranationalists never subverted the limited democracy established by the 1890 constitution, but in the 1930s their views inspired millions and became dogma (the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot) within the Japanese military.

To take a specific example, in the Weimar Republic the liberals (such as Stresemann) were traditionally supporters of democratic practices and free trade but they nonetheless supported the annexation of lands, particularly in Russia, to provide fresh markets and resources for the nation. They were nationalist. In contrast the ultra-nationalist Hitler had no real political beliefs beyond those needed to bolster the Fatherland. If dictatorship and government control of the economy was needed to achieve national superiority then so be it. If Germany could only be bettered through a campaign of genocide then that was fine. Everything is revolved around the nation-state and destroying those who threatened it including their own people. A good example of an ultra-nationalist party in a government today is the Israeli hawkish Yisrael Beiteinu party lead by Avigdor Lieberman. Another one is the new Solvak government which has embraced coalition partners Ján Slota, president of the extreme right-wing Slovak National Party (SNS) and thrice prime minister Vladimir Meciar, head of the Peoples' Party-Movement for Democratic Slovakia. The Slovak National Party is well-known for its xenophobic and ultra-nationalistic views on minorities, especially against Hungarians and Roma. Turkey’s Ergenekons are another extreme ultra-nationalist organization which we are up against.

Cheers.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Thanks for the info Eddo jan. I hope you understood me correctly now Anoush jan. One doesn't have to be nationalistic to love his/her country. If he/she has to then he/she doesn't love his/her nation enough. Nationalism isn't a factor that judges whether or not you love your nation. It's a separate feeling with dangerous side effects.

Bottom line is, if someone wants to be a nationalist, that's fine, they just should be very careful so it doesn't change into something else. If someone doesn't want to be a nationalist, that doesn't mean he/she doesn't love his/her country or make him/her less Armenian. I'm saying this again, true love for your country is way beyond nationalism, politics, etc. It is almost sacred. I don't know how else to describe it.

I feel tremendous love, if not true love, for my nation. That love increases every day and I never feel the need to call myself a nationalist. It's simply pointless. Nationalism has no place in my heart because patriotism, love, and so much more have taken it's place a very long time ago!

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I'm a very proud Nationalist and nothing is going to change that I've got my views of this world and maybe some people don't like it but I'm not going to say sorry for my views.

And Saco I'll respond to your points when I've got more time and RL isn't a xxxxx like it's now. Got a German test tomorrow, a French test the next day. And after that going to London for three days and also exams coming up in a couple of week. So don't think we are done here because we aren't far from it. You'll have to wait till we can go on.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Some people here post negatively about Nationalists, using it sometimes as an insult (!), they also talk about "Ultra-Nationalism" .
How can "Ultra-Nationalism" exist? You're either a Nationalist or not, simple as. The glass can be no more full than 100%.
The really interesting point amongst all this is that the people who are accusing others, ie Nationalists, of intolerance, narrow-mindedness and extremist views, are most often the ones actually guilty of intolerance,narrow-mindedness and extremist views!

You're right Anoushka about the slavering neighbours East & West, the sly, good for nothing Georgians to the North. Without Nationalists Hayastan would already be like Nakhichevan and if no Nationalists in the future......that could still happen.

Thank you for your views Hrai jan; I agree to this, if as a nation as little as we are in numbers for the moment we do not become nationalists, patriots, whatever or whichever you want to call it, we shall be doomed as a nation. We must become nationalistic creatures to survive in this evil world.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

we have to keep in mind Nationalism forms and defends a nation, which in that case can be a positive force.

And I must add hipeter, not just a positive force but in our case a necessity for survival.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I'm a very proud Nationalist and nothing is going to change that I've got my views of this world and maybe some people don't like it but I'm not going to say sorry for my views.

And why should you apologize for it Karothe when it is the right views. In the case of our nation and nationality it is a necessity my friend!

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I hope you understood me correctly now Anoush jan. One doesn't have to be nationalistic to love his/her country. If he/she has to then he/she doesn't love his/her nation enough. Nationalism isn't a factor that judges whether or not you love your nation. It's a separate feeling with dangerous side effects.

Why should it be dangerous Saco? I think you have the wrong views on nationalism. Did the turkish government annihilated our nation at the turn of the last century? Obviously yes? Did the azeris annihilated thousands of innocent civilian Armenians just a decade and a half ago? Yes of course. And why should we not become nationalists? Being nationalist is not a bad word or a taboo Saco; it means the same things that you uttered below. Being a damn good Patriot, greatly loving your country and giving all to her and for her people. And when everything else fails, well to fight for her against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Bottom line is, if someone wants to be a nationalist, that's fine, they just should be very careful so it doesn't change into something else. If someone doesn't want to be a nationalist, that doesn't mean he/she doesn't love his/her country or make him/her less Armenian. I'm saying this again, true love for your country is way beyond nationalism, politics, etc. It is almost sacred. I don't know how else to describe it.

I feel tremendous love, if not true love, for my nation. That love increases every day and I never feel the need to call myself a nationalist. It's simply pointless. Nationalism has no place in my heart because patriotism, love, and so much more have taken it's place a very long time ago!

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I'm a very proud Nationalist and nothing is going to change that I've got my views of this world and maybe some people don't like it but I'm not going to say sorry for my views.

DID we ask you to apologize? You obviously have a very hard time reading.

And Saco I'll respond to your points when I've got more time and RL isn't a xxxxx like it's now. Got a German test tomorrow, a French test the next day. And after that going to London for three days and also exams coming up in a couple of week.

Good luck !

So don't think we are done here because we aren't far from it.

You've got that right...

You'll have to wait till we can go on.

Patience is a virtue and I have lot's.

Why should it be dangerous Saco? I think you have the wrong views on nationalism. Did the turkish government annihilated our nation at the turn of the last century? Obviously yes? Did the azeris annihilated thousands of innocent civilian Armenians just a decade and a half ago? Yes of course. And why should we not become nationalists? Being nationalist is not a bad word or a taboo Saco; it means the same things that you uttered below. Being a damn good Patriot, greatly loving your country and giving all to her and for her people. And when everything else fails, well to fight for her against all enemies foreign and domestic.

It's not the same thing Anoush jan. It's very similar but not the same thing. And I never said Nationalist is a taboo word. It's just something that doesn't define who I am. I think beyond nationalism and so do you ... I can sense that from your words ... for some reason though, you keep tagging yourself to nationalism when there is no reason to do so. And I don't understand why you're screaming at me. I didn't say something wrong.

Whatever I've talked about has been proven and has been discussed very seriously by people like Andranik, Nzde, etc. If you want to prove me wrong, you'll have to prove them wrong first which is literally impossible. Nationalism does NOT make you more Armenian or more loving. Love isn't nationalism. The very term nationalism was coined in the last 2-300 years if I'm not mistaken. So before that, people didn't love or be patriots? They were the same people and never needed the term Nationalist to define them. I've seen what Nationalism has done to people and I don't like that. It IS dangerous. Read Eddo's and Peter's posts. They describe why it's dangerous. A simple explanation would be that it begins beautifully but it can lead you in the wrong direction if you aren't careful.

There are lot's of great nationalists out there, don't get me wrong, but I don't consider them to be nationalists and neither do they. I consider them to be much higher then that. Instead of shouting at me, it be great if you tried to understand what I'm trying to say . I wouldn't say anything to offend you Anoush jan. You know that and if you don't after all this time then I don't know why I'm talking to you.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

It's not the same thing Anoush jan. It's very similar but not the same thing. And I never said Nationalist is a taboo word. It's just something that doesn't define who I am. I think beyond nationalism and so do you ... I can sense that from your words ... for some reason though, you keep tagging yourself to nationalism when there is no reason to do so. And I don't understand why you're screaming at me. I didn't say something wrong.

Whatever I've talked about has been proven and has been discussed very seriously by people like Andranik, Nzde, etc. If you want to prove me wrong, you'll have to prove them wrong first which is literally impossible. Nationalism does NOT make you more Armenian or more loving. Love isn't nationalism. The very term nationalism was coined in the last 2-300 years if I'm not mistaken. So before that, people didn't love or be patriots? They were the same people and never needed the term Nationalist to define them. I've seen what Nationalism has done to people and I don't like that. It IS dangerous. Read Eddo's and Peter's posts. They describe why it's dangerous. A simple explanation would be that it begins beautifully but it can lead you in the wrong direction if you aren't careful.

There are lot's of great nationalists out there, don't get me wrong, but I don't consider them to be nationalists and neither do they. I consider them to be much higher then that. Instead of shouting at me, it be great if you tried to understand what I'm trying to say . I wouldn't say anything to offend you Anoush jan. You know that and if you don't after all this time then I don't know why I'm talking to you.

Saco, lets say that we agree on this one not to agree. Btw; Antranik was a great nationalist in my books whether he admit it or not. And I am a firm believer so was Karekin Nejteh.

Why are you saying that I am screaming at you? I wrote it in large letters and highlighted it so that it will be well noticed as I wrote it in between your sentences - quotes. I hope you didn't get a different impression.

Now did you have to say that you don't know why you're talking to me? Was that necessary?