Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I think to believe that ARF's leaving the coalition was partly because Serzh was not revealing to them what it was in the "road map" and he was collaborating with our number one enemy, the turks and it was very important for the parties in the coalition to collaborate with each other against the enemy and to give each other brainstorms; especially in dealing with such an enemy who wants to annihilate us time and again (be it culturally or figuritevely), but they do to get Armenia and Artsax out of world's map. At this time they all had to collaborate with each other and see what and how they could work out against the enemy. I also believe that Serzh was acting in a very fishy manner during his collaborations with the turks and that didn't give hope and aspirations of goodwill towards Armenia and to the ARF's party members who were watching Serzh and our government officials carefully.

About the Medzamort Nuclear Power plant, read the article again Karothe, it says that they are letting turkey to come in and be partners with them. It's like saying to the enemy "here is our nuclear powers and see what our secret weapons are all about", it is quite plainly giving our first enemy the formula of our secret weapons. I couldn't believe it when I read that article. How could they'd be dum enough to do that? Or were they paid for it? I don't know.

I'd like to think of Serzh as I did in the past that he is wholeheartedly for our country's behalf; but as of late unfortunately he showed negativity. I hope he'll work things out to prove to his countrymen otherwise.

I think the only reason was because of the road map and all the secretnes around it and not that there are talks for opening the border. Because ARF is not against opening of the border, but they are against preconditions like Serjik is. And can you tell me were the article is because I can't find it.

Yes it's always going to be the poor and the rich in any given country; but in a small and newly rising country of ours; our government should and could try to welcome Armenians from the Diaspora or other rich institutions to come and invest in the country and not let some idiots; be it from the government or from the people to rob the well meaning Diasporans to be robbed royally. That's one of the best ways they could help our small country to get onto her feet and make the very rich and the very poor to meet. In other words; to strive and work to have a middle class people be formed rather than the very wealthy and the very poor majority that it exists now in our country.

You asked me an honest question (whether I would help my relatives and/or friends when I become the president), and I will give you an honest answer; the answer is NO I wouldn't. If I were to be president of our country I would first live very humbly myself to show the devotion towards my countrymen and I would certainly not spoil and help my relatives and friends to be spoiled and corrupted. Why should I do that when I would be living humbly for the sake of the people? I would put a law in the country that anyone (that includes any relative or any friend of mine) who acts in a corruptive fashion will be taken to court and will be punished in the court of law "the country's law". And I will see to it that corruption vanishes from the country.

You see Karothe, it's true that there are a great deal of corruptions in the USA for instance and other well established and rich countries; but in a small and newly established country as Armenia, corruption should be dramatically minimized and vanished. Otherwise we cannot move forward, and if we do move forward it shall be a very very slow road and many of our people would have to resolve to go outside the country to earn enough money to support their families.

And we need time for that we are not even 20 years independent and are still at war. We need time to get investors in, we need people who were from Armenia return there. The government is helping with the creation of the ministry of Diaspora. And Anoush I think you are one of the very few who wouldn't do something like that. You should be there and leading our country

You are right here. The society must change; but I believe that the government too has to change in this matter. How? By punishing anyone and everyone who resolves to corruption. Including their kins.

The government is a representation of the people it has always been and it will always be like that. Look at every country I don't care which one it is. If society changes the gov will change too.

Yes in the USA, in England and Europe the governments live lavishly; but look at the US's government? Because of mega corruption, eventually they not only brought down economically the whole country but the whole world with them. And thanks to them and their corruption, we are in a huge recession now and people cannot find jobs to live.

And what happed to our Nakharars, yes they used to live a very lavish lifestyle but the people also lived well by minding the crops I believe. However the fact that some of our Nakharars acted in a selfish manner and look what happened to our kingdom and our people later? We certainly don't want the very bad habits of the past Nakharars to continue, do we now?

And I say yes of course to strive and for our government to start creating a strong middle class and that comes after three important factors: 1) the government must take a very strong stand against corruption by punishing one and all who act it; and 2) by welcoming and encouraging everyone who try to invest in the country and see to it that no one, I mean no one steals their money or fools around with them or their endeavors; and 3) by working very hard to create jobs for everyone.

How can we blame our government for something that's "normal", and those points you make I agree with them but I believe we need time for that too happen.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

You are right here. The society must change; but I believe that the government too has to change in this matter. How? By punishing anyone and everyone who resolves to corruption. Including their kins.

That ain't gonna happen ... that's the problem ! If that happened, everything would change. See, the spiderweb has to be broken down. Everyone has to be connected not to each other but to proper behavior.

To Saco; I saw in a few of your posts that you put down nationalists. I am fullheartedly a nationalistic Armenian myself. As a matter of fact to be a darn good Armenian Saco one must be a darn good and whole hearted nationalist.

A true Armenian ... isn't a nationalist. He/She is beyond nationalism. Why? Because nationalism is very dangerous and I've seen what it can do to people if they aren't careful. Love for your country doesn't come via nationalism. Many confuse the two. Many don't understand that. Nationalism, when your not careful, leads to fanaticism and extremism and even racism at one point. Neither are good. You don't have to become a perfect nationalist to be a good Armenian. It doesn't work that way Anoush jan. I can't agree with you here. I'm not putting down good nationalists ... I'm putting down the fanatics and extremists. Even our great leaders never liked them. There are entire books based on this. I don't want to dwell too deep into this topic. I hope you got my point though, don't mean any disrespect.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

It's not their responsibility even if you think it is. And if it was a building he had gotten from the Soviet government than it isn't his. I don't care how long he has been living in it it's still the governments. Thats petakan shenk for you. And I don't think their are the ones who keep the country moving but the simple men is. Because it was the simple men who was fighting in Artsakh and it wasn't the artist who was there.

They are fighting in their own way Mr. I don't give a sh!t. In ten years time, you will start to see how many people still remember who we are, our history, our traditions, our music, our instruments (which are on the brink of being lost), etc. and they will have to owe it to only these people. Our New Generation knows so little about our past and these people are making sure that in a few years, there will still be some physical history to see and not just talk about in history books! You have no idea what these people have done. They have spent their entire lives protecting who we are .. what makes our country what it is. Everyone plays a role. Don't make the fighters more important then THESE fighters who CONTINUE to fight. It's because of these people that the fighters fight because they protect this nation's personality. And when it comes down to "petakan shenk" there's more to that issue then you think. There were SO MANY HOMES that were created in the last decade and the gov. just decided to break them down. Is this right? Your just talking, Karo. Start listening more.

It is still the simple men who is defending our borders and will give it's live or the country. It's the children who are making the country move they are the next generation to come and see the country.

Have you seen the new generation here in Armenia? So many of our people, if not most, don't give a hoot what happens to our nation. What children are you talking about? These children are making this nation WORSE believe it or not in so many ways. It's the handful of serious people that are protecting our past and who we are so that after a few years, there will be something to come back to. We've lost so much already. And your here dissing them.

Those are the ones who keep the country moving. They are the people I want to give my life for. Not for artists, I know enough of them most of them are stuck up people.

These aren't ARTISTS Karo. What's your problem, man? You think I'm talking about simple musicians? Your carelessness has reached it's limit I feel. Can you hear what your saying? How can you disrespect these people so badly? You don't even know them. It's YOU that's stuck up.

why should one get a new place to work and not the other, why is the artist worth more than a business men?

They aren't ARTISTS. You look at them as ordinary people and you are again offending them. There are hundreds of businessmen. There are only a few like the people I'm talking about and they actually make a real difference. They aren't who you think they are, Karo.

I believe they need to stick with the government and keep the country evolving. And let some one dare to take weapons up against Hayastan and the army/government, I'll be the first to be back and swear an oath of allegiance for the army. Revolution is never the answer, the only reason to revolve is when they decide to give away Artsakh but Serj will never give away it's home.

Let's hope not. And the people can't stick to a gov. and keep it evolving when it makes they're lives harder and harder every day. You make it sound like all our people are dumbasses and need to start getting in line. In reality, it's the other way around. Stop blaming the people, Karo.

[Anoush]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Let's hope that they'll arrive soon.

Yes I do too!

ARF was the only one who left the coalition, because there was no openness in the government. That's the only reason I believe. Than blame them for that and alone. He choose the worst time to sign that's true. And what are you talking about the Nuclear plant? There Turks were never let in you're making it sound that they are going to give it to the Turks. They aren't, I think the government hates the Turks as much as we do. You've to remember that Serj is from Artsakh and saw what the Turks did to our people and believe me if there is even one precondition the border will not be opened.

I think to believe that ARF's leaving the coalition was partly because Serzh was not revealing to them what it was in the "road map" and he was collaborating with our number one enemy, the turks and it was very important for the parties in the coalition to collaborate with each other against the enemy and to give each other brainstorms; especially in dealing with such an enemy who wants to annihilate us time and again (be it culturally or figuritevely), but they do to get Armenia and Artsax out of world's map. At this time they all had to collaborate with each other and see what and how they could work out against the enemy. I also believe that Serzh was acting in a very fishy manner during his collaborations with the turks and that didn't give hope and aspirations of goodwill towards Armenia and to the ARF's party members who were watching Serzh and our government officials carefully.

About the Medzamort Nuclear Power plant, read the article again Karothe, it says that they are letting turkey to come in and be partners with them. It's like saying to the enemy "here is our nuclear powers and see what our secret weapons are all about", it is quite plainly giving our first enemy the formula of our secret weapons. I couldn't believe it when I read that article. How could they'd be dum enough to do that? Or were they paid for it? I don't know.

I'd like to think of Serzh as I did in the past that he is wholeheartedly for our country's behalf; but as of late unfortunately he showed negativity. I hope he'll work things out to prove to his countrymen otherwise.

There are always going to be poor and rich, that's never going to change. But today the gap is closing little by little. And please tell me if you would not help out your relatives and friends when you would come to power. Because that would be the first thing you would also do. I believe that's natural that they are helping out their friends and family. Do I think it's right? No, it isn't.

Yes it's always going to be the poor and the rich in any given country; but in a small and newly rising country of ours; our government should and could try to welcome Armenians from the Diaspora or other rich institutions to come and invest in the country and not let some idiots; be it from the government or from the people to rob the well meaning Diasporans to be robbed royally. That's one of the best ways they could help our small country to get onto her feet and make the very rich and the very poor to meet. In other words; to strive and work to have a middle class people be formed rather than the very wealthy and the very poor majority that it exists now in our country.

You asked me an honest question (whether I would help my relatives and/or friends when I become the president), and I will give you an honest answer; the answer is NO I wouldn't. If I were to be president of our country I would first live very humbly myself to show the devotion towards my countrymen and I would certainly not spoil and help my relatives and friends to be spoiled and corrupted. Why should I do that when I would be living humbly for the sake of the people? I would put a law in the country that anyone (that includes any relative or any friend of mine) who acts in a corruptive fashion will be taken to court and will be punished in the court of law "the country's law". And I will see to it that corruption vanishes from the country.

You see Karothe, it's true that there are a great deal of corruptions in the USA for instance and other well established and rich countries; but in a small and newly established country as Armenia, corruption should be dramatically minimized and vanished. Otherwise we cannot move forward, and if we do move forward it shall be a very very slow road and many of our people would have to resolve to go outside the country to earn enough money to support their families.

There is corruption in every country on the globe there doesn't exists a country where you won't find corruption. And in Armenia there is corruption in every layer of society not only in the top but in all the layers. The society needs to change so that corruption will go down and corruption is something that can't be stopped. And to me it seems that some Diasporians wont invest in the country because they don't like who are the top dogs in the country.

I believe I have answered to this paragraph in whole above.

Like I said the society must change. In Armenia you see everyone bribing everyone. And they do it for everything, the government can try but if the people don't try to change how can the government stop it.

You are right here. The society must change; but I believe that the government too has to change in this matter. How? By punishing anyone and everyone who resolves to corruption. Including their kins.

The taxes in Armenia are almost non existent and there are people who make a lot of money in Russia working for a couple of months. Why not give a small part to the government, a very small part. If everyone should do that than we would have more money to invest in the country.
In what country do you see members of the government live humble, look at any country you like the people of the government are all living wide, they are rich men that's how things are. Even look at our history our Nakharars had more gold than they could spends but you still had people starving in the country. We need to create a strong middle class, that's what we need in the country and that's why we need create job opportunities.

Yes in the USA, in England and Europe the governments live lavishly; but look at the US's government? Because of mega corruption, eventually they not only brought down economically the whole country but the whole world with them. And thanks to them and their corruption, we are in a huge recession now and people cannot find jobs to live.

And what happed to our Nakharars, yes they used to live a very lavish lifestyle but the people also lived well by minding the crops I believe. However the fact that some of our Nakharars acted in a selfish manner and look what happened to our kingdom and our people later? We certainly don't want the very bad habits of the past Nakharars to continue, do we now?

And I say yes of course to strive and for our government to start creating a strong middle class and that comes after three important factors: 1) the government must take a very strong stand against corruption by punishing one and all who act it; and 2) by welcoming and encouraging everyone who try to invest in the country and see to it that no one, I mean no one steals their money or fools around with them or their endeavors; and 3) by working very hard to create jobs for everyone.

To Saco; I saw in a few of your posts that you put down nationalists. I am fullheartedly a nationalistic Armenian myself. As a matter of fact to be a darn good Armenian Saco one must be a darn good and whole hearted nationalist.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

From earlier times with no fuel, no heat, no electricity, water for 1 hours each day.....................

We've also been through that, Hrai. It's not just your perspective.

I laughed about you wanting to know what my family say on phone because we'd need whole forum just for that! Loosen up a bit.

There you go again, misunderstanding me. I'm asking you to tell me what they're perspective was when you asked them about Armenia. What they told you basically. You say they tell you what I say just in a different way and I want to know how!

There you go again, throwing the teddy out of the crib. Three big statements in one. 1) How was what you've said been proven and by who?
2) You've gone defensive saying that I might not trust you. and now offensive:
3) Saying you'll stop the talk.
Saco, this is crazy way to discuss anything. If we ever met in a cafe and had discussions like this I think I'd pull my hair and eyes out!

I wouldn't meet you in a cafe precisely for that reason ! But seriously, stop acting like the victim. You and Karo have misunderstood me on more occasions then I ever have and I haven't gouged my eyes out yet so I'll think you'll survive ...

And regarding our talk, let's get to the point if you have anything serious to say, shall we?

A few months ago my Uncle was stopped by a militia in his car, he asked the cop " how much you want?" (he'd done nothing wrong you see), again he asked "how much?" after asking third time, he just slapped the militiaman in the face, threw 200 dram at him and drove off. This corruption has been there for decades, since before soviet times......unfortunately you could say it's become part of the culture.

So you've been through the militant crap as well, huh? I guess we have a few things in common ! Thankfully, the gov. has just started getting serious when it comes to bribery which is very good. It's the first smart step these retards have taken in a long time.

Armenia is bigger than Belgium or their are the same size, they even have a smaller army than us and don't need to keep putting money in Artsakh like we do. Armenia as a state is making almost nothing it's really struggling to survive those billions you are talking about are nothing. Americans have plains that are almost as expensive as the billion we are talking about. You must not forget that we also are paying for the soldiers, police, firemen, border guards,.... and many more and those cost also money. They do what they can with limited money and the corruption in every level of society doesn't help either.

What you keep avoiding is the fact that this corruption STARTED from the gov. not the people.

So the government doesn't allow someone to come and start his own business in Armenia, are you certain about that. Because that can't be true.

They can start their business but I told you under what conditions which isn't very good. In your opinion, things might not be true. In real life though, things are much different....much, much different.

How are we different than those major countries, those countries have more money than Hayastan and they still have the same problems.

But they're bigger, have a larger population, and are just that ... major countries. We aren't a major country. Hell, people don't even properly know we exist. But STILL, we get lots and lots of money (somehow, I'm amazed sometimes) and this gov. knows our people aren't very smart and so manipulates them in any way it likes ... making whatever decision it likes whenever it likes. Everything starts from the top, Karo. That's why we need to change that and that's exactly what the gov. doesn't want us to do. They're trying to keep the status que.

there isn't enough money coming inside the country.

Oh there is money coming in. It's been coming in for a longggg time and if your gov. used it properly, we wouldn't be in this state. Why do you ignore this fact?

i got a question would you go and start a business in Vrastan right now, with the chance of Russia coming in and bombing it? No you wont, because you wont risk it. And doesn't aren't excuses people don't want to invest in a place that wont make a profit for them. We got almost all our borders closed so transportation is also a problem, and the war in Georgia doesn't help either. Those are all factors that play a role.

But they aren't the MAIN factors. You are making wrong comparisons again, Karo.

What can I do like if people in general want easy answers, if something happens they need someone to blame. I would say it's human nature. And those road workers have found a way to make money time after time. That's why we need more controls and see what they are doing. This takes time to get those reforms in place and an enemy that is threating you doesn't help either

What enemy?

And regarding the workers. THEY aren't the ones that make the decisions. What do you think they do, dig up roads whenever they like? This is another primitive view. Think about what your saying. They're managers are the ones that make the decisions and they aren't freelancers. They are all connected to the gov. That's the problem. It's like a damn spiderweb. Think about what I'm saying. It's very simple.

No you are right they don't want Armenian money.

Then what do they want according to you? That's what I'm asking.

And if the government doesn't want any one to help the country why is it trying to borrow money to help the businesses who are having a bad in this crisis. Why is that? And the money that was borrowed can't go to their pockets and is watched by the whole world.

Just like all the other money, right? In this front, perhaps they won't get away with it, but they have eaten MILLIONS of dollars that should've been given to this nation. You'd be a fool to doubt this. And don't say this happens everywhere. It's irregular here. Everyone up there thinks about only his/her self. It's really shameful and the president can't change this. To change this, you have to bring down the entire gov. You have to cut the tree from it's roots.

So what you are saying is that the government controls everything also the cop who stands next to the road and pulls you over and takes money and lets you go.

Now your starting to understand what I'm saying. Chgrvats orenkner kan Karo, durants vura achkerut mi paki. Nuranken teladrum es yerkri apagan. They have to change...

That's what I'm talking corruption is every were and we are used to bribe people. We have been since the Soviet days, were you had to pay to get a good grade.

That continues till today but things have changed considerably because the gov. pulled it's xxxx together. So see, they have the power to stop all this but they weren't for a long time. Puti tarapeink vor nor pokhein es orenkneru, che?

That when people get a pashton they turn into corrupt bastards, I don't care who it is. the moment they get a pashton they try to make as much money as they can that's what needs to change n our society. The filling of our pockets and only thinking about our stomaches and ones think about the country.

This has to change but it is because of the gov. that this is all happening, not the people. You think they don't control this? This current state, however rediculous, allows them to control the status que ... sometimes without us even knowing. That's why they don't change anything. It will harm them! This current situation is great for them. It's perfect. Why should they change anything?

And that's why we got an business man as a varchapet. I hope he'll use the little money we got much better than it has been used. When people don't know what they were doing they xxxx up and they learn by trial. We have been independent for not even 2 decades and you expect a heaven. We got allot of hard time till we learn by falling and getting up.

Why are you blaming the people AGAIN? Don't you have anyone else to pick on? And I don't expect Heaven but I expected something much better then this. After the war LOT'S of money came in and the gov. used it in the wrong way. I don't know how you can disagree with this.

And should we do take up arms and get a revolution like they did in Georgia or we could support our government and evolve like we have been evolving since our independence. Things are getting better and that's why I support the government if there was no change to the better I would never support it.

We have yet to see what has "changed". Every president that came in changed a few things and then began to act retarded after a little while. I support Serj to some extent but I don't trust him like you do. I know things will change. I just hope its a good change and that by the time things come along, half our people won't be out of here. If you want to know, yes, I think a revolution has to begin. This gov. can't change. It will change something but it won't change. If we don't stop this system NOW then forget about ever changing it later. It's been only 15 years. We can still change everything. But later, it will be too late. That's my worry and that's why I want our people to stand up. Serj is acting carefully because he knows our people have had enough and will cut his head off if he makes a mistake. This border issue will decide who he really is. I'm not making any judgement calls just yet...

There is corruption in every lair of society, from police men to doctors to every other profession there is corruption. And why is that? Because of the way us Armenians are thinking and that needs to change. Many people are criticizing the government but they would do the same if they were the were the ones calling the shots. It's not the up to the government alone to fight corruption, it's not only their responsibility but also ours. It's the responsibility of all the Armenians living Hayastan or not.

I agree, completely, but the gov. has to give us that opportunity! It's not as easy as you think to change everything. Look at the bigger picture. Look at the spiderweb ... at how everything is connected to each other. No matter what you want to change, you still have to start from the gov. It's like this no matter how you look at it.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

They aren't artists, Karo. Stop talking with such carelessness. They are the few people that keep this nation moving. People like this are supported around the world. Here, no one is supported, especially those who deserve to be supported. It IS the duty of this pathetic gov. to support them. See they have the ability to, that's what's painful. It's not like they're dying in poverty. They don't care about us, that's the problem. We're not asking for big houses, we're not asking for millions of dollars. We're asking for so little. They aren't giving anything. And just for your information, your gov. is breaking down his workshop and giving him nothing in return. They don't even give you the worth of the building you lived in for decades. It's your property after all. They don't have a right to just give you a thousand dollars and move you out. There is a lot of dark corners I don't want to dwell into Karo, it's dirty politics and it's clear you don't have much knowledge in that field, no offence. I'm just asking you to stop talking carelessly and be more careful what you say. I don't think I'm asking for too much.

It's not their responsibility even if you think it is. And if it was a building he had gotten from the Soviet government than it isn't his. I don't care how long he has been living in it it's still the governments. Thats petakan shenk for you. And I don't think their are the ones who keep the country moving but the simple men is. Because it was the simple men who was fighting in Artsakh and it wasn't the artist who was there. It is still the simple men who is defending our borders and will give it's live or the country. It's the children who are making the country move they are the next generation to come and see the country. Those are the ones who keep the country moving. They are the people I want to give my life for. Not for artists, I know enough of them most of them are stuck up people.(don't saying the person you are talking about is stuck up)

We're not talking about businessmen, Karo. Your comparing an apple with a jackfruit

why should one get a new place to work and not the other, why is the artist worth more than a business men?

We're living in a corrupt country. That's what we're living in. And the more you support this gov., the more you won't understand.

Look at Hrai's post

And I'm not an economic student but have been through a lot of economic issues in my life, not to mention that I've been able to deal with serious political and economic figures because my dad is a businessman himself.

It all comes down to the people in the end but not in the way you seem to constantly imply. The people must simply stand together and fight against this pathetic gov. and take back this nation. People don't stand up for each other and that's why I blame them for what's happening. I don't blame them for what the gov. does like you and you still owe them an apology.

I believe they need to stick with the government and keep the country evolving. And let some one dare to take weapons up against Hayastan and the army/government, I'll be the first to be back and swear an oath of allegiance for the army. Revolution is never the answer, the only reason to revolve is when they decide to give away Artsakh but Serj will never give away it's home.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

1 Billion is the minimum amount, not the maximum. What you don't understand is that this money (even if it's little, which it isn't) is getting used in the wrong way. If we have less money then it should be used MUCH MORE CAREFULLY. These retards spend it though as if it's their money. It's OUR money and OUR sweat that they spend without ever caring about us. Your also forgetting that our nation compared to Belgium is very, very small. We get millions of dollors EVERY MONTH from the outside and its enough to keep our nation in a good state. A couple of billion dollors is enough to deal with 60-70% of the main issues we face today and we have that kind of money. They aren't being dealt with because the money is going in different pockets, not in our nation. Stop blaming everyone but the main culprits.

Armenia is bigger than Belgium or their are the same size, they even have a smaller army than us and don't need to keep putting money in Artsakh like we do. Armenia as a state is making almost nothing it's really struggling to survive those billions you are talking about are nothing. Americans have plains that are almost as expensive as the billion we are talking about. You must not forget that we also are paying for the soldiers, police, firemen, border guards,.... and many more and those cost also money. They do what they can with limited money and the corruption in every level of society doesn't help either.

Exactly, but the gov. DOESN'T ALLOW YOU TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY! Can you understand that or should I break it down a bit more for you?

So the government doesn't allow someone to come and start his own business in Armenia, are you certain about that. Because that can't be true.

Our nation is very small and the begger issue should've been dealt with properly. Why? Because throughout these 15 years or so, A LOT of money has come in. A LOT. Back then, the xxxxxxxs didn't deal with all the problems when they had to and that's why, we are in a crisis now. They thought the money would just keep flowing in ! For how long Karo? They kept putting millions of dollars into their accounts instead of using it when they were supposed to. That's why it is the gov. fault. You shouldn't feel bad when you hear this. Stop comparing Armenia to major countries.

How are we different than those major countries, those countries have more money than Hayastan and they still have the same problems. And what money is flowing in the problem is that there isn't enough money coming inside the country. You need more than the pennies they stole, because compared to what you need to get the country on it's feet that money was just pennies nothing more.

I didn't say it's only Serj's fault. I've told you that he's all we've got, not that i completely trust him. But when it comes down to businessmen, your wrong. What you should be saying is "they don't come to a nation that won't allow them to invest properly". I'd think of you as a smarter person if you said that. War isn't the main reason and when you give me all these excuses, it doesn't allow me to take you seriously. Everything plays a role but it's mainly the gov. fault.

i got a question would you go and start a business in Vrastan right now, with the chance of Russia coming in and bombing it? No you wont, because you wont risk it. And doesn't aren't excuses people don't want to invest in a place that wont make a profit for them. We got almost all our borders closed so transportation is also a problem, and the war in Georgia doesn't help either. Those are all factors that play a role.

Misunderstood me AGAIN. I'm not saying the people don't have any share of blame but the gov. is misusing them GREATLY. Dzuku glkhitsa hotum ... MISHT. There were tons of roads that were completed perfectly and then got reconstructed for a rediculous reason. This is the simplest way to make money! Leave the people alone for a second, won't you? It's starting to get annoying hearing you blame them so much. Vor shat toghnem, karogha Lenini mahnel ktses es khech mardkants vra.

What can I do like if people in general want easy answers, if something happens they need someone to blame. I would say it's human nature. And those road workers have found a way to make money time after time. That's why we need more controls and see what they are doing. This takes time to get those reforms in place and an enemy that is threating you doesn't help either

Microsoft and Apple are very bad examples. They didn't come here to make money, Karo. If you really knew so much about economics (no offense) you'd know why they really came here. The issue I'm trying to pull forward though is that this gov. doesn't fully allow people to come help this nation and people won't come, trust me. There are many problems, not just the Caucasus issue. The problems you mention aren't the main reasons. Your talking about the beach .... I'm talking about the damn ocean that affects the beach and everything around and within it. You don't need to know economics to understand this simple fact.

No you are right they don't want Armenian money. And if the government doesn't want any one to help the country why is it trying to borrow money to help the businesses who are having a bad in this crisis. Why is that? And the money that was borrowed can't go to their pockets and is watched by the whole world.

Haha, the GOV. allowed them to do that. Do you always think this primitively? What part of "the gov. controls everything" do you not understand? They control EVERYTHING and know about EVERYTHING.

So what you are saying is that the government controls everything also the cop who stands next to the road and pulls you over and takes money and lets you go. That's what I'm talking corruption is every were and we are used to bribe people. We have been since the Soviet days, were you had to pay to get a good grade.

CHANGE WHAT? In many respects, we need to change, of course, but that change has nothing to do with these bigger issues. What are the people doing wrong? The gov. is the one controlling everything and no matter what we do ... they will still control it all. Nothing will change. You don't understand me very well.

That when people get a pashton they turn into corrupt bastards, I don't care who it is. the moment they get a pashton they try to make as much money as they can that's what needs to change n our society. The filling of our pockets and only thinking about our stomaches and ones think about the country.

And for that to happen, the gov. needs to stop misusing it's money like it has for more then a decade. Our money. Why don't I hear you saying that? And AGAIN, the poor guy gets power from the GOV. and abuses it the same way THEY do! This poor dude is just keeping to the law. Don't you understand? The laws and the people are all connected to the gov.

And that's why we got an business man as a varchapet. I hope he'll use the little money we got much better than it has been used. When people don't know what they were doing they xxxx up and they learn by trial. We have been independent for not even 2 decades and you expect a heaven. We got allot of hard time till we learn by falling and getting up.

Oh I have proof don't worry. That's not the point. I agree with what your saying but there were many people that were normally doing whatever it is they were doing and they were getting taxed worse then ever. This is not right, Karo. Sometimes, you don't use your heart or head. I just hear you talking staley. This gov. has made so many mistakes that it doesn't know how to correct them now and I only blame our people for putting these retards up there on the throne when THEY should've been on the streets begging. This is way beyond politics. Things are much more dirty and shameful then you think.

And should we do take up arms and get a revolution like they did in Georgia or we could support our government and evolve like we have been evolving since our independence. Things are getting better and that's why I support the government if there was no change to the better I would never support it.

Lol, don't worry about it. You have much more important things to worry about, trust me. And it's not only because they think I could make easy money in the Diaspora that they're amazed. They just can't believe that I would want to come back to all this crap. Many would rather live poorly outside then here. It's already come to that point.



Of course, just not the way they are nowadays. There is a special word for what they're doing and it's called corruption.

There is corruption in every lair of society, from police men to doctors to every other profession there is corruption. And why is that? Because of the way us Armenians are thinking and that needs to change. Many people are criticizing the government but they would do the same if they were the were the ones calling the shots. It's not the up to the government alone to fight corruption, it's not only their responsibility but also ours. It's the responsibility of all the Armenians living Hayastan or not.

[hrai]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

And what is your perspective, Hrai?

From earlier times with no fuel, no heat, no electricity, water for 1 hours each day.....................

And I asked you how! Instead of laughing, you should be answering that. Living here DOES give you more experience and information. That's something you don't understand. I'm not trying to dis you, that's just how it is.

I laughed about you wanting to know what my family say on phone because we'd need whole forum just for that! Loosen up a bit.

All I've said has been proven and if you don't trust me, I'm not continuing this conversation.

There you go again, throwing the teddy out of the crib. Three big statements in one. 1) How was what you've said been proven and by who?
2) You've gone defensive saying that I might not trust you. and now offensive:
3) Saying you'll stop the talk.
Saco, this is crazy way to discuss anything. If we ever met in a cafe and had discussions like this I think I'd pull my hair and eyes out!

Yeah, a lot is stolen as well. The point though is that these retards place lots of taxes on even the smallest package that comes in. Lol, they even make you pay for the "air" you'll be flying through after getting on your plane so what do you expect from them? Oti pogh petka vchares ... 10000 Dram ! I haven't seen this even in the most backward countries.

A few months ago my Uncle was stopped by a militia in his car, he asked the cop " how much you want?" (he'd done nothing wrong you see), again he asked "how much?" after asking third time, he just slapped the militiaman in the face, threw 200 dram at him and drove off. This corruption has been there for decades, since before soviet times......unfortunately you could say it's become part of the culture.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

If you want to discuss things let's discuss but try to be mature this time.

You were the one that popped in suddenly in the other thread ... not me ... without realizing I'm not going to take your BS. Learn from your own words!

I see quit well what's going on don't worry, I saw what was going on 10 years ago, I saw what was going on in 93, saw what our people have been through and I see it now and things don't seem so dark anymore.

I was talking about you misunderstanding my posts related to Turks, not Armenia's current state. And regarding you knowing the people ... your right, things aren't as bad as before but in many respects ... it's even worse! Don't let my age fool you. That's the dumbest thing you can do. I haven't just been living here in Yerevan, I've been doing much more and that's what has allowed me to see the bigger picture. This isn't a question of me being smarter then you or you being smarter then me. It's a question of experience and your words hint that you have a lot of catching up to do. No one in his right mind would support Kocharyan. He isn't very different from Levon, trust me. He's done a lot of secret crap as well. There is a poll here in Yerevan which checks to see which political figure the Armenian people trust more. Kocho is at the very bottom with only 1 vote ... actually two votes ... including you!

I understood you very well don't worry.

Then why have you been an ass about it? What exactly did you understand if you don't mind me asking? Till now, you've been calling me a Turk lover and disrespecting me for no reason. I couldn't care less but when you say you understood me, it makes you look like an idiot because apparently you understood me but still tried to dis me. I don't think you've understood anything at all, sorry.

Do you know how little money that that is, there are countries who have trade with countries that are worth 10 times that much. There are companies that make more profit than that. 1 billion dollar is nothing we need 20 times as much to start have a normal country. Do you know how much Belgian government spends each year 80 billion dollars. What is that 1 billion we need more trade.

1 Billion is the minimum amount, not the maximum. What you don't understand is that this money (even if it's little, which it isn't) is getting used in the wrong way. If we have less money then it should be used MUCH MORE CAREFULLY. These retards spend it though as if it's their money. It's OUR money and OUR sweat that they spend without ever caring about us. Your also forgetting that our nation compared to Belgium is very, very small. We get millions of dollors EVERY MONTH from the outside and its enough to keep our nation in a good state. A couple of billion dollors is enough to deal with 60-70% of the main issues we face today and we have that kind of money. They aren't being dealt with because the money is going in different pockets, not in our nation. Stop blaming everyone but the main culprits.

I'm not talking investing like giving your money to the government because you'll see no results. You should never give your money to any government I don't care who they are.

Exactly, but the gov. DOESN'T ALLOW YOU TO DO IT ANY OTHER WAY! Can you understand that or should I break it down a bit more for you?

They aren't economics and allot of it will disappear in the bureaucracy. And the beggers problem do you really think that we can turn in a country that there are no beggers there is no country like that. Go to the streets of every major country and you'll see beggers. you say we have gotten allot of money look at how much construction there is going on in Yerevan were do you think the money is coming from. And we got also army that needs money, we need weapons that isn't cheap either. Than there is the matter of interest that we have to pay for loans. That's all money that is gone.

Our nation is very small and the begger issue should've been dealt with properly. Why? Because throughout these 15 years or so, A LOT of money has come in. A LOT. Back then, the xxxxxxxs didn't deal with all the problems when they had to and that's why, we are in a crisis now. They thought the money would just keep flowing in ! For how long Karo? They kept putting millions of dollars into their accounts instead of using it when they were supposed to. That's why it is the gov. fault. You shouldn't feel bad when you hear this. Stop comparing Armenia to major countries.

Believe me no bussines man is going to invest in a country that can go to war any moment. And how is it Serj is fault that whole our society is like that and don't say it isn't true.

I didn't say it's only Serj's fault. I've told you that he's all we've got, not that i completely trust him. But when it comes down to businessmen, your wrong. What you should be saying is "they don't come to a nation that won't allow them to invest properly". I'd think of you as a smarter person if you said that. War isn't the main reason and when you give me all these excuses, it doesn't allow me to take you seriously. Everything plays a role but it's mainly the gov. fault.

There are naturally many broken roads here in Armenia and many need to be fixed. The gov. has on many, many occasions done the following (pathetic excuse to reconstruct it! Really simple, isn’t it? Easy money. If all the road. It needs time to repair the road part by part it's being repaired. I'm from Lenakan, and I hate when people start complying that they aren't building fast enough. You need money to build without it you can't build.

Misunderstood me AGAIN. I'm not saying the people don't have any share of blame but the gov. is misusing them GREATLY. Dzuku glkhitsa hotum ... MISHT. There were tons of roads that were completed perfectly and then got reconstructed for a rediculous reason. This is the simplest way to make money! Leave the people alone for a second, won't you? It's starting to get annoying hearing you blame them so much. Vor shat toghnem, karogha Lenini mahnel ktses es khech mardkants vra.

That's why Microsoft and Apple are going to come and invest in the country yes the government doesn't want people to invest in the country. Maybe the oligarchs don't want it but they'll lose their place very soon when more businesses will be started in the country. And trust me no investor wants to invest in the Caucasus right now. The place is too unstable.

Microsoft and Apple are very bad examples. They didn't come here to make money, Karo. If you really knew so much about economics (no offense) you'd know why they really came here. The issue I'm trying to pull forward though is that this gov. doesn't fully allow people to come help this nation and people won't come, trust me. There are many problems, not just the Caucasus issue. The problems you mention aren't the main reasons. Your talking about the beach .... I'm talking about the damn ocean that affects the beach and everything around and within it. You don't need to know economics to understand this simple fact.

They turned the law like they wanted, not the governments fault.

Haha, the GOV. allowed them to do that. Do you always think this primitively? What part of "the gov. controls everything" do you not understand? They control EVERYTHING and know about EVERYTHING.

But our society this is also an example of every one trying to get as rich as they can and being as corrupt as possible. Do you think is we fire those people and get new people things would be better at the airports no it wont. Do I think the government must do something against it? Yes I do but I also think we as people need to change.

CHANGE WHAT? In many respects, we need to change, of course, but that change has nothing to do with these bigger issues. What are the people doing wrong? The gov. is the one controlling everything and no matter what we do ... they will still control it all. Nothing will change. You don't understand me very well.

The same as above, a poor guy gets power and abuses it. Like they say in Spiderman with great power comes great responsibility. We need to punish them, I agree with that. But that will not change anything. They need better wages so they wont do things like that. And for better wages the government needs to have more money.

And for that to happen, the gov. needs to stop misusing it's money like it has for more then a decade. Our money. Why don't I hear you saying that? And AGAIN, the poor guy gets power from the GOV. and abuses it the same way THEY do! This poor dude is just keeping to the law. Don't you understand? The laws and the people are all connected to the gov.

I feel bad for those tatikner but I'm now using my head and not my heart. In Armenia everyone thinks they can do what they want, like start selling things on the side of the road without paying taxes. But when you stand at the bazar you have to pay 500 dram a day. That is in Lenakan. And the city started to fine the people who were selling next to the road and they were complaining that the city didn't let them sell and was taking away their daily bread. And the next day you see other people telling that there is anarchy in Hayastan. You have to choose law or anarchy. And welcome to the world of capitalism. And do you have proof that it's 30000 thousand each month. Taxi driver don't even pay that much.

Oh I have proof don't worry. That's not the point. I agree with what your saying but there were many people that were normally doing whatever it is they were doing and they were getting taxed worse then ever. This is not right, Karo. Sometimes, you don't use your heart or head. I just hear you talking staley. This gov. has made so many mistakes that it doesn't know how to correct them now and I only blame our people for putting these retards up there on the throne when THEY should've been on the streets begging. This is way beyond politics. Things are much more dirty and shameful then you think.

I know why because they think outside the country things are thousand times better and you can come here and make easy money. That's what they think that Europe and America is the promised land and you come here and become a millionaire in one day and drive a fancy car.
(I had to cut your quotes because there were to many letters and it wont post)

Lol, don't worry about it. You have much more important things to worry about, trust me. And it's not only because they think I could make easy money in the Diaspora that they're amazed. They just can't believe that I would want to come back to all this crap. Many would rather live poorly outside then here. It's already come to that point.

You want to know the truth why investors can do what ever they want because they have the money.

Of course, just not the way they are nowadays. There is a special word for what they're doing and it's called corruption.

Money makes the world go around. And since when it's the job of the government to give something free to some one because he's an artists.

They aren't artists, Karo. Stop talking with such carelessness. They are the few people that keep this nation moving. People like this are supported around the world. Here, no one is supported, especially those who deserve to be supported. It IS the duty of this pathetic gov. to support them. See they have the ability to, that's what's painful. It's not like they're dying in poverty. They don't care about us, that's the problem. We're not asking for big houses, we're not asking for millions of dollars. We're asking for so little. They aren't giving anything. And just for your information, your gov. is breaking down his workshop and giving him nothing in return. They don't even give you the worth of the building you lived in for decades. It's your property after all. They don't have a right to just give you a thousand dollars and move you out. There is a lot of dark corners I don't want to dwell into Karo, it's dirty politics and it's clear you don't have much knowledge in that field, no offence. I'm just asking you to stop talking carelessly and be more careful what you say. I don't think I'm asking for too much.

Because he's an artist he deserves more. When the office of a business man is pulled down is it the governments job to give him a new office.

We're not talking about businessmen, Karo. Your comparing an apple with a jackfruit.

No it isn't and it never was. We aren't living in a socialist country but a capitalist one.

We're living in a corrupt country. That's what we're living in. And the more you support this gov., the more you won't understand.

ps:I'm economic student so I know a little bit how the economy works and how money comes in and goes out in businesses and in governments.

And I'm not an economic student but have been through a lot of economic issues in my life, not to mention that I've been able to deal with serious political and economic figures because my dad is a businessman himself.

It all comes down to the people in the end but not in the way you seem to constantly imply. The people must simply stand together and fight against this pathetic gov. and take back this nation. People don't stand up for each other and that's why I blame them for what's happening. I don't blame them for what the gov. does like you and you still owe them an apology.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

3. I’d like to talk about our grandmothers here in Yerevan now, selling shemushka or dried sunflower seeds. The gov. recently increased taxes (as if they weren’t already high enough) and that included the taxes of these poor women. Each month, they probably make about 5000 Drams or MAYBE 10000 Drams MAX … if they’re lucky! What the gov. does is raise their taxes to 30000 Drams which they have to pay every month. It’s not just taxes. You’re also paying for the one meter of space you use up to continue your “business” . But THIRTY THOUSANDS DRAMS? These poor people don’t disturb anyone, just taking up their small little corner and trying to make some money for their poor families along with their health issues and you make them pay 30000 Drams when they BARELY make 5000 if they’re lucky? Who the F**K made this xxxxing law according to you, Karo? The war? The people perhaps? This is what your country does. Es khech tatikneru inch mi pogh ein ashkhatum vor duk ekak nurants vura taxer bardetsik ... en el chutesnvats takser? Hima hatsi poghel chunen. Gona arach et unein. Another example is the markets here in Yerevan. The gov. greatly increased their taxes and many are closing down they’re small stores which gave our people a small but steady income. By the time this gov. is done screwing us in whatever position it likes, there won’t be anyone left here in Yerevan.

I feel bad for those tatikner but I'm now using my head and not my heart. In Armenia everyone thinks they can do what they want, like start selling things on the side of the road without paying taxes. But when you stand at the bazar you have to pay 500 dram a day. That is in Lenakan. And the city started to fine the people who were selling next to the road and they were complaining that the city didn't let them sell and was taking away their daily bread. And the next day you see other people telling that there is anarchy in Hayastan. You have to choose law or anarchy. And welcome to the world of capitalism. And do you have proof that it's 30000 thousand each month. Taxi driver don't even pay that much.

Have you ever asked yourself why people constantly leave Armenia? Well now you might have a better idea. I can give you literally thousands of examples of how the gov. is spoiling and misusing us along with our patience under the name of taxes and in SO MANY other ways. Every year, we lose thousands of Armenians because they can’t SURVIVE here anymore. No matter where I go, Armenians are simply dumbfounded when they know that I could’ve lived in the US and India without any problems at all but decided to stay in Armenia. They‘re simply amazed. They’re disgusted by all that’s going on and keep asking me why I came back to Yerevan. It just doesn't fit into they're heads. How’s that for caring about your people? Could you do that, Karo?

I know why because they think outside the country things are thousand times better and you can come here and make easy money. That's what they think that Europe and America is the promised land and you come here and become a millionaire in one day and drive a fancy car.

3. There are many antique buildings in Yerevan and the gov. is breaking them down although they are in good condition. Why would they do that? Because they are building massive skyscrapers wherever the hell they like (which is against even nature or construction laws). They give the families living initially in the area a little money to survive and forget they ever existed. I mean screw them right, they're just Armenians! That's how they think and I personally have met these people. Now these pathetic buildings (many haven’t been constructed, staying unfinished because of lack of money … I wonder where the millions went ) are filled with apartments that are EXTREMELY expensive so naturally, no one from Armenia can buy them. Here’s how expensive. A square meter costs around $12-16,000 and the prices change everyday because the investors can do whatever they want. Why? Because they have relatives at the gov. level. Manuk Harutsunyan, one of our greatest cultural knights that I mentioned, asked Tigran Sarksyan personally if he could give him one lousy apartment in one of these new, fancy and EMPTY buildings so that he could have a normal workshop to continue his hard work (tekus eli menak) as his small workshop will be broken down to accommodate them and he said he’ll try to do something with a small grin on his face, chewing his gum and walking away with his group of homeys. He never said another word after that. It’s been months. Right now, Mr. Harutsunyan is going through a lot of problems and no one is showing any support. He is very, very close to our family and I’m helping him as well via C&A and in many other ways.

You want to know the truth why investors can do what ever they want because they have the money. Money makes the world go around. And since when it's the job of the government to give something free to some one because he's an artists. Because he's an artist he deserves more. When the office of a business man is pulled down is it the governments job to give him a new office. No it isn't and it never was. We aren't living in a socialist country but a capitalist one.


ps I'm a economics student so I know how those things work.