Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Im sirtu chi vacharvum, Anoush jan !



My family has settled down nicely and we're moving on slowly, slowly, trying to live in our country after so much travelling. It's hard sometimes but everything works out in the end. We could've lived fantastically in the US or India but we decided to come here, naturally knowing that it wouldn't be easy. Park astsu, chenk djgohum. We're moving on and I live with the people every day which allows me to see the bigger picture. I don't live the life of a bratty millionaire, lol. The real dirty politics can only be understood after going through all this. Instead of kissing gov. ass so much (without even knowing them properly), you should be asking me questions Karo, trying to see what I’m saying. Your insults are pathetic. Your not dissing me, our dissing our people by what you say.

If you want to discuss things let's discuss but try to be mature this time.

Your a fool already, Karo. Back then, I explained my views to you and EVERYONE clearly and I did so again, a few posts back. Why are you ignoring them? And if that wasn’t enough, you've ignored both Anoush's Armenian post AND all of mine pretty much. Everyone understood me other then you. Why is that? It's YOU that needs to be doubted, not me. I haven't given a reason for anyone to doubt me. I've proven who I am in a positive way on more occasions then you ever have. Your nationalism simply won't allow you to ever see what's really going on. I know nationalists like my ten fingers. I've seen enough to last me a life time and your deep nationalism has completely blinded you to the point that you can come up to me and tell me I don't care about me people. I feel sorry for you. Period.

I see quit well what's going on don't worry, I saw what was going on 10 years ago, I saw what was going on in 93, saw what our people have been through and I see it now and things don't seem so dark anymore.

And why do you think that is, Karo? Huh? Simply because we're brainless? Fact is, you misunderstood me very badly a year ago and no matter what I say, you'll just act like a dimwit. There is a lot you don't know so stop looking at the cover of the book and start looking IN it.

I understood you very well don't worry.

Do you know how much money annually walks into this nation? One billion dollars minimum. I know buddy, hard to believe isn’t it? This has been proven by many people, even at the top. So where does all this damn money go? The people sure as hell don't see it!

Do you know how little money that that is, there are countries who have trade with countries that are worth 10 times that much. There are companies that make more profit than that. 1 billion dollar is nothing we need 20 times as much to start have a normal country. Do you know how much Belgian government spends each year 80 billion dollars. What is that 1 billion we need more trade.

I'm gonna say this once and only once Karo. Let's see if your nationalism will allow you to conceive useful information just this once.

Let's start this from the top, shall we? Read every single word! I'm saying all this for YOU although you don't deserve it at all. Thank Anoush alone!

You say people should come and invest. That's not a bad idea .

Have you ever asked yourself why people ... don't come? Forget the war and all those excuses. That's not even ten percent of the reason why people aren't coming. It’s logical but not real. It isn’t the main reason.

People don't come because of the sons of xxxxxes leading this country. Yep, the same gov. you're eating your heart out for! Here are a few examples of what happens when people try to invest.

Example #1: Kirk Kirkiryan (and many like him) wanted to invest here in Armenia and he did and you know what our officials did? They ate his money like wolves. See, he wasn’t the one purchasing whatever was required. The gov. was. They assured him that they would use his investment wisely. So where did all the millions of dollars go? Fact is, right now, Armenia's roads alone should've been made of gold. There should've been NO BEGGERS ON THE STREETS. And just for your info, they're increasing ... not decreasing! We have gotten SO MUCH MONEY from the outside but every dollar has disappeared in a day. We never see what happens to it all. What the gov. does is create a small bridge or clean up a street and make it look like the money is being put to good use. Kirk was so pissed off, he left…..just like so many others!

I'm not talking investing like giving your money to the government because you'll see no results. You should never give your money to any government I don't care who they are. They aren't economics and allot of it will disappear in the bureaucracy. And the beggers problem do you really think that we can turn in a country that there are no beggers there is no country like that. Go to the streets of every major country and you'll see beggers. you say we have gotten allot of money look at how much construction there is going on in Yerevan were do you think the money is coming from. And we got also army that needs money, we need weapons that isn't cheap either. Than there is the matter of interest that we have to pay for loans. That's all money that is gone.

Example #2: You know how many Russian investors wanted to come to Armenia? BIG INVESTORS mind you. There were many. Why didn't they come? Because of the chances of war? Don't make me laugh my head off, I've had enough from your posts. They didn't come because of the pathetic gov. that screws my country every day. You know what the officials say? They say come to Armenia but let us deal with the money. You deal with the business and just sign the bills and checks basically which makes it very easy for the money to be manipulated. So it’s like you start investing in a project of your own (or a gov. project) and the gov. tells you how much it needs to continue doing this or that. Trusting them, you give them what they need without realizing that not even half of the money is being used properly. The Armenians from Russia are the smartest in the world though. They know what's going on and don’t take the bait. They say they want to control how much they invest and physically do whatever it is they want to do here and the gov. kicks them out! How ironic. They do this to EVERYONE. Then they make a law that doesn't allow investors to control their investments. They always have to have the money in there hands and when they do, 99% of the time, the money disappears or gets used up in the wrong way. Just look at how many unfinished buildings, projects, roads, etc. there are here in Armenia. They never get completed. here's a good example of money manipulation. This is fairly recent. 50 yellow buses were to be bought by the gov. if I’m not mistaken and they're here now. Soon something happened though. The people figured out that the gov. apparently used twice (or was it thrice?) as much money buying them then was intended. The prices of the buses didn’t change at all. Say each bus cost $20,000. The gov. spent $50-60,000 dollars on each one according to their accounts. So see, they bought the buses at low prices in reality but made it look expensive so that they could put A LOT of money in their pockets … and they did. There is a trial going on right now if I’m not mistaken and many are trying to cover this issue up just like so many others. Many have already been covered up.....

Believe me no bussines man is going to invest in a country that can go to war any moment. And how is it Serj is fault that whole our society is like that and don't say it isn't true. How many pay to have their son serve close to their house, the corruption is every were. Not only the government but everyone is trying to get a good job so they can become rich very fast.

Example #3: There are naturally many broken roads here in Armenia and many need to be fixed. The gov. has on many, many occasions done the following (until we found out). They fix a road, buying the cement at very high prices (that’s what they say…the prices are actually very low, the extra money goes in the gov. big pocket) and then after it’s completed, they come back a week or month later with some pathetic excuse to reconstruct it! Really simple, isn’t it? Easy money. If all this money was spent properly, this nation would be glowing. Doubt anything but this fact, Karo. Anything but this fact.

They are renovating my street in Belgium, 200 meters costs 1 milion dollars whole the street 1 km is around the 10 million. Were must the government get the money for every part of the road. It needs time to repair the road part by part it's being repaired. I'm from Lenakan, and I hate when people start complying that they aren't building fast enough. You need money to build without it you can't build.

The gov. almost BEGS people to not invest here in Armenia. Literally begs people not to come. There are hundreds of big investors (let alone normal people with money in they're hands) that have wanted to come to Yerevan but they left the coming week. The gov. pisses off everyone. These officials have become a xxxxing repellant, keeping everyone away. They don’t allow you to freely invest and do a good job. They have to definitely stick their dirty noses into your business. They don’t just ask for taxes like in normal countries. They eat your nerves AND every xxxxing penny you got in your xxxxing pocket. So, do you still want to invest in Armenia? I don’t blame you if you don’t, lol!

That's why Microsoft and Apple are going to come and invest in the country yes the government doesn't want people to invest in the country. Maybe the oligarchs don't want it but they'll lose their place very soon when more businesses will be started in the country. And trust me no investor wants to invest in the Caucasus right now. The place is too unstable.

There are hundreds of other examples that can prove how ridiculously all the money that’s coming in is being used but I’d like to talk about something else now…..



Hitler was smart, lol. Our leaders are pathetic. Read on and see if you can digest all this crap. I somehow did. It was a very disgusting experience!

1. There was this foreigner, in his 50’s I think, who was about to leave Yerevan from Zvartnots airport. On his way out, the “officials” there checked his bags as usual but then said that he would have to pay for the clothes on his body! WTF does that mean? Apparently, it was bought here in Armenia (an expensive but very casual outfit, it wasn’t an antique or something, lol) and he had to pay A LOT of taxes and sign papers to be allowed to walk into his plane. This man was a big donor and he had done a lot for this country. He was a VIP. Now he had very little money left in his pocket and these people wanted to take every last penny he had. Now you’ll say he should’ve started a case or something. Too bad Karo, everything was official. The law allowed all this to happen. These people misused him shamefully. What happened after that? He went crazy and started screaming out in English, “What type of people are you?” and “You know what I’ve done for you?”. He took off his shirt, the one he had to pay for, threw it on the ground and entered the plane and probably never returned again. Before leaving, he said, “Why didn’t the Turks finish you off?” and no one said a word. This is one of many examples. Es kursinerin piti TUrkeru mortein vochte mer anmegh joghovurdin. This is how our gov. treats people, Karo. My dad was the one that saw all this and tried to cool this poor man down. This is one of thousands of people that have slipped out of our hands. So many good hearted people want to help but HOW can they? We don't give them a chance to.

They turned the law like they wanted, not the governments fault. But our society this is also an example of every one trying to get as rich as they can and being as corrupt as possible. Do you think is we fire those people and get new people things would be better at the airports no it wont. Do I think the government must do something against it? Yes I do but I also think we as people need to change.

2. My dad has a good business going on here and when he was in the airport, bringing in some merchandise, the women in front of him was supposed to receive a small parcel … a $100 pen that her friend/relative in the US sent her for her birthday. She was so happy ... until the airport officials said that she would have to pay taxes to bring it in as it was “expensive”. She very happily asked how much, eager to leave soon, thinking it wouldn’t be too much … I mean it’s just a pen. They spat out 200 xxxxing dollars! TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS? Does that make any xxxxing sense … in ANY country? All her happiness rushed off from her face, getting on a plane out of Zvartsnots in horror probably, and she angrily walked away, throwing the pen on their desk and leaving. My dad later figured out after talking to his business partners that these retards confiscate hundreds of presents, expensive merchandise, etc. every day and no one goes to pick them up because they know they can’t xxxxing afford it. This is what they do every time … under the name of taxes! And no one can do anything about it. Let’s move on…

The same as above, a poor guy gets power and abuses it. Like they say in Spiderman with great power comes great responsibility. We need to punish them, I agree with that. But that will not change anything. They need better wages so they wont do things like that. And for better wages the government needs to have more money.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I don't think my words were degrading, if you do then you're far too sensitive.

No, I just see what your really saying, Hrai! I never said half of the things you said I did and some how, you make it seem like I have less experience some how.

Relatively speaking you have recently moved there, what 3 or 4 years?

3-4 years at one time. I've come on many other occasions, 6 months - 1 year at a time.

Perhaps you're looking at Yerevan and Armenia through eyes raised abroad, if you had lived all your life there you would be less pessimistic.

I don't see anything with eyes raised abroad. Don't give me that, Hrai. I'm looking through the eyes of our people. If you see what I'm saying as pessimistic, that's your problem, not mine. I'm presenting the current case as it is. These aren't my personal "opinions" or "perspectives"!

Saco, I remember all the citys trees cut down for heating fuel, people burning these in their tenement apartments. We've got different perspectives.

And what is your perspective, Hrai?

Having family & friends in Armenia gives me no less information than you can, can't you see that? What they say on the phone? Do you really want to know? Hahahaha! No you don't! Are you wrong? Not totally, but they give news in a different way.

And I asked you how! Instead of laughing, you should be answering that. Living here DOES give you more experience and information. That's something you don't understand. I'm not trying to dis you, that's just how it is.

I do post short messages, I try to keep them shorter than this if I can.
For the record, Saco, try to stop going immediately on the offensive every time, criticism can be constructive you know.

I know what constructive criticism is, Hrai, Karo's message wasn't constructive though. It was BS and it's embarrassing seeing you not agreeing with that fact. Kocharyan? I mean come on...

Disrespecting Armenians does matter to me very much, but they're Karo's people as much as yours, remember in your post to him you refer to "my" instead of our people. I'm glad you changed that here!

Karo said I don't care about them and I made him understand how important they are to me. When he says everything he said, he shows how much he doesn't know about them. They are his people, your right, and he disrespected them!

We're not enemies, just dancing to different tunes, there's enough real enemies out there to deal with.

True but I tend to be more careful of the people close to me because they tend to cause you the most pain.

Oh, and lastly, surely that last paragraph shouldn't be there (see highlight in first quote box)?

I'd love to know why!

This is actually the road-repair crews who use far less material than they should and the rest of it they use on private "business". That's why they have to come back very soon to repair again.

And you say you know what's going on, lol! There were so many roads that were made perfectly and they came back and tore it apart the next day. Why, because of the bad repairs? Your views are too primitive. Look at the bigger picture. All I've said has been proven and if you don't trust me, I'm not continuing this conversation.

Not just gifts posted in, but luggage from travellers is often misplaced for perhaps a day or two and when recovered usually expensive items have somehow fallen out!

Yeah, a lot is stolen as well. The point though is that these retards place lots of taxes on even the smallest package that comes in. Lol, they even make you pay for the "air" you'll be flying through after getting on your plane so what do you expect from them? Oti pogh petka vchares ... 10000 Dram ! I haven't seen this even in the most backward countries.

[hrai]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Example #3: There are naturally many broken roads here in Armenia and many need to be fixed. The gov. has on many, many occasions done the following (until we found out). They fix a road, buying the cement at very high prices (that’s what they say…the prices are actually very low, the extra money goes in the gov. big pocket) and then after it’s completed, they come back a week or month later with some pathetic excuse to reconstruct it!

This is actually the road-repair crews who use far less material than they should and the rest of it they use on private "business". That's why they have to come back very soon to repair again.

My dad later figured out after talking to his business partners that these retards confiscate hundreds of presents, expensive merchandise, etc. every day and no one goes to pick them up because they know they can’t xxxxing afford it. This is what they do every time … under the name of taxes! And no one can do anything about it. Let’s move on…

Not just gifts posted in, but luggage from travellers is often misplaced for perhaps a day or two and when recovered usually expensive items have somehow fallen out!

[hrai]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Hrai returns again with his doubts ! First off, I haven't just moved here. Second off, I live with the people. And third off, I haven't said anything out of the ordinary, have I? If Karo was from here, he wouldn't support Kocharyan even in his wildest dreams. I have constantly said that I live here because it really matters. having friends/relatives here and actually living here are two different things. I'm not trying to dis anyone. You for some reason continue posting your short messages and I don't have anything else to say to you!

Okay.

I haven't just moved here, Hrai. Keep your degrading words to your self. And just a question, what do your relatives say on the phone? What makes me wrong? And just for the record, Karo didn't "disagree", he dissed our people. There's a difference ... if that even matters to you!

I don't think my words were degrading, if you do then you're far too sensitive.
Relatively speaking you have recently moved there, what 3 or 4 years? Perhaps you're looking at Yerevan and Armenia through eyes raised abroad, if you had lived all your life there you would be less pessimistic. Saco, I remember all the citys trees cut down for heating fuel, people burning these in their tenement apartments. We've got different perspectives.
Having family & friends in Armenia gives me no less information than you can, can't you see that? What they say on the phone? Do you really want to know? Hahahaha! No you don't! Are you wrong? Not totally, but they give news in a different way.
I do post short messages, I try to keep them shorter than this if I can.
For the record, Saco, try to stop going immediately on the offensive every time, criticism can be constructive you know.
Disrespecting Armenians does matter to me very much, but they're Karo's people as much as yours, remember in your post to him you refer to "my" instead of our people. I'm glad you changed that here!
We're not enemies, just dancing to different tunes, there's enough real enemies out there to deal with.
Oh, and lastly, surely that last paragraph shouldn't be there (see highlight in first quote box)?

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Let’s move on and see what else is going on, shall we?

1. We have 10-20 cultural knights, maybe a few more … people that are doing everything to protect our national treasures, music, instruments, etc…. all alone …… because they are not getting ANY support from the gov. at all. I know almost all of them and they are very close to our family. One of them, Armenia’s greatest Qamancha maker for example was here a few days ago. We got in touch with him a long time ago because my younger sister Lilit plays Qamancha. He doesn’t have a proper job, has health issues, etc. and isn’t getting any support. He is somehow keeping everything together. He left his usual job because the gov. wouldn’t pay him months at a time. Now if these handfuls of people give up … our nation will be lost. Do you understand that Karo? Think about what I’m saying. OUR NATION will be dead. They are the ones that keep our history and everything that makes us who we are together, not this pathetic excuse of a gov. They should be living in expensive houses without any problems so that they will continue they’re hard work which they really, really want to and our officials can afford this, believe me. Instead, the gov. pisses on them and leaves them to die. Still love the gov. Karo?

Right now, I’m creating massive pages for all of them in Candles and Ashes and we’re working together to move on. I share their pain and try to help along with my family whenever we can. They are truly great people. Would I do this if I didn’t care about me people, Karo? I don’t think you fully appreciate who you’re talking to yet.

2. Do you know how expensive it is to spend a week or two near Lake Sevan? Say you want to have a vacation. Well get ready to empty your pockets people because it’s more expensive then Disney World or a vacation in Europe. Very few visit for that reason which brings down our economy and everything. People walk out of our nation disgusted and I don’t blame them. Es harifneru tuveren krakum vor kyankit mech ches lsel! Ova sents ban tesel? And here’s something else, the ENTIRE area around Sevan, Tsakhkdzor, etc. are BOUGHT by the gov. and every official has his or her acres of land and every one of them creates restaurants, hotels, etc. shouting out any price he/she likes. There are no standards. They manipulate FREELY and NO ONE Karo can do anything about it! It's all in they're fat hands.

3. There are many antique buildings in Yerevan and the gov. is breaking them down although they are in good condition. Why would they do that? Because they are building massive skyscrapers wherever the hell they like (which is against even nature or construction laws). They give the families living initially in the area a little money to survive and forget they ever existed. I mean screw them right, they're just Armenians! That's how they think and I personally have met these people. Now these pathetic buildings (many haven’t been constructed, staying unfinished because of lack of money … I wonder where the millions went ) are filled with apartments that are EXTREMELY expensive so naturally, no one from Armenia can buy them. Here’s how expensive. A square meter costs around $12-16,000 and the prices change everyday because the investors can do whatever they want. Why? Because they have relatives at the gov. level. Manuk Harutsunyan, one of our greatest cultural knights that I mentioned, asked Tigran Sarksyan personally if he could give him one lousy apartment in one of these new, fancy and EMPTY buildings so that he could have a normal workshop to continue his hard work (tekus eli menak) as his small workshop will be broken down to accommodate them and he said he’ll try to do something with a small grin on his face, chewing his gum and walking away with his group of homeys. He never said another word after that. It’s been months. Right now, Mr. Harutsunyan is going through a lot of problems and no one is showing any support. He is very, very close to our family and I’m helping him as well via C&A and in many other ways.

4. Let’s talk about education, shall we? Do you know how many graduates we have that carry red diplomas (you have to get straight A’s like your whole life to get these)? Do you know what they do today? They teach in poor schools. Some even sell ponchiks and hot cocoa in Grand Candy. WHY Karo ? Answer me. This has been going on for more then a xxxxing decade, even when we didn’t have as many problems as we do now so don’t you dare blame it on the borders or give me any of your other BS. These great students are the people that should lead this country or at least live normal lives, for crying out loud. I live a better life then they do and sometimes I can’t help but feel completely down. They should’ve been living like I am, if not better. They deserve it more then I do. The gov. doesn’t allow them to move on AT ALL though. Why? Because those bastards up there know very, very well that they will lose their jobs. Half of them don’t even have a proper education Karo. Their relatives simply put them there. So what is it that’s going so great? What is it that you so hilariously expect from these people? They just get in their posts, spend a year or two up there … SUCKING as much money as possible into their bank accounts and then flying to live in Hawaii or some where exotic, forgetting how our people suffer. By the time these people get out of their posts, they have enough money to live like kings all their pathetic little lives. Moving on…

5. It’s the same crappy situation when it comes to actors, singers, composers, etc. Whenever you want to go up, you get pulled down. This leads to a very broad discussion so I’ll keep it short. Do you know that 90% of all the famous Armenians out there didn’t become famous here? They became famous abroad. The same Aram Khachaturyan we love so much wouldn’t be who he was if he started HERE. Why? Because no one will allow you to move on. There are no opportunities. It's all lies. In these theatrical schools, institutes, etc. you will never be able to get anywhere because all the higher posts belong to the relatives of the gov. or the theatrical institute itself. Most of these retards don’t know anything at all yet live like kings and drive 4-5 cars. No one can take their place. You might get killed for trying, believe it or not! That’s why, students aren’t learning, give up school, live goghakan, and make this nation more corrupt. And I DON’T BLAME THEM! How can I, Karo? You wouldn’t learn either if you knew that the best students out there were living like beggars!

I can go on and on and on and on and ON until the end of time. All I want you to understand though is the following. Our government lives by a code … a very simple but effective system. All the gov. posts are given to relatives of the president and the other officials after every election. More then half of them are illiterate, don’t know anything besides how to manipulate us, and live happily without a care in the world. They just do some good deeds to make us think everything is hunky dory and steal our money as we speak.

You don’t like this, well then let’s go and complain, shall we? Oh wait, the judge and whoever it is you want to complain to is ALSO part of the f-ucking family so he/she will never do anything out of the ordinary that will harm another family member. So what can you do? You can sit on your ass and live with it.

And that’s where the problems begin. People CAN'T live with it. That’s why they leave. Corruption at it’s best, Karo. And this system has been effective for the last 15-20 years and it won’t change until the gov. completely breaks down and someone smart starts everything from square one. Too bad it ain’t gonna happen because no one smart can even enter parliament, lol. Everything is under control. Kez ughaki kveratsnen. You know who get the most manipulated??? The nationalists. That's why I'm telling you to see the bigger picture. The gov. is hungry and believe it or not, it’s comprised of the same poor people that we can see today in general. They know they can’t change anything so quietly they ignore the Armenian populace and steal they're money.

A long time ago, I wanted to start a thread mentioning all this, especially after I saw people like you supporting this pathetic gov. Why do you think I didn’t? I didn’t because I’m completely embarrassed . I didn’t want people to laugh at my nation. Knowing all this (what I mentioned isn’t even 10% of it all), I sat down and painfully began thinking of ways to help my country instead of trying to deal with these politics. It’s impossible … that’s why. Our politics aren’t professional or serious, they’re simply shameful and hilarious. Every country has politics but ours are a joke. I have been to so many countries in my life but I’ve never seen a more pathetic gov. or set of laws which my people have to live with SOMEHOW every day. They keep us in a very pathetic state which allows them to do anything they want. That's why I say they make us hunt for food. They don't allow us to think about anything else. They keep us poor and make us learn to be this way. It has become a norm and that's why no one rises against all this. Everything, EVERY xxxxING THING is controlled. Living with this, I soon realized that IF you want to help this nation … you have to help it without the gov. or anyone else here knowing about it because they will pull you down the second you try to take any proper steps forward. They spoil and abuse us. Now, I’ve started my project and day and night, I’m working on it and the result of 6 months of hard work is that some of the greatest people in Armenia and many, many people from all over the world of all ages are involved in it and I live with the people every day, feeling their pain and working together with them to move on. Screw this gov. It’s easy for you to live out there in the Diaspora and talk big. We’re the ones that have to live with this. I know these rats better then you ever can imagine and your posts can’t stop making me laugh.

I’m not trying to be arrogant or anything but this is what true love for your nation is like … going through all this and still not giving up. Everything here is far from normal and you don’t owe ME an apology for what you said. You’re too low to offend me. I’ve gone through hundreds of Karo’s in my life. No, you owe a very big apology to my PEOPLE … the very same people that suffer and are abused physically, mentally, and subtly every day. You had no right to say what you did, especially with your limited knowledge and without living here or knowing what’s going on. You don’t know who you’re talking to very well and that's why I'm not taking you seriously. You simply misunderstood me in the past, thinking you know everything.

Think again, Karo. You don't know anything...

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Now Karothe quite frankly I must say that you have to come up with some kind of kindly talks towards Saco "vor sirde arnes".

Im sirtu chi vacharvum, Anoush jan !

We are not there to judge our beloved people who are there suffering every day; but he is.

My family has settled down nicely and we're moving on slowly, slowly, trying to live in our country after so much travelling. It's hard sometimes but everything works out in the end. We could've lived fantastically in the US or India but we decided to come here, naturally knowing that it wouldn't be easy. Park astsu, chenk djgohum. We're moving on and I live with the people every day which allows me to see the bigger picture. I don't live the life of a bratty millionaire, lol. The real dirty politics can only be understood after going through all this. Instead of kissing gov. ass so much (without even knowing them properly), you should be asking me questions Karo, trying to see what I’m saying. Your insults are pathetic. Your not dissing me, our dissing our people by what you say.

I wont because a month ago he was preaching something else go and read what he was preaching and I believe we should give them the benefit of the doubt becauseI think we will not do anything foolish.

Your a fool already, Karo. Back then, I explained my views to you and EVERYONE clearly and I did so again, a few posts back. Why are you ignoring them? And if that wasn’t enough, you've ignored both Anoush's Armenian post AND all of mine pretty much. Everyone understood me other then you. Why is that? It's YOU that needs to be doubted, not me. I haven't given a reason for anyone to doubt me. I've proven who I am in a positive way on more occasions then you ever have. Your nationalism simply won't allow you to ever see what's really going on. I know nationalists like my ten fingers. I've seen enough to last me a life time and your deep nationalism has completely blinded you to the point that you can come up to me and tell me I don't care about me people. I feel sorry for you. Period.

You can't blame the poverty on the goverment. Armenia is a country with most of it's borders closed so they lose alot of trade by that. Because a war can start there there are no foreign investers coming in the county to invest in it. That's what I don't like blaming every thing that goes wrong on the government, and us Armenians like to do that not only the ones living in Hayastan but also the ones outside of it.

And why do you think that is, Karo? Huh? Simply because we're brainless? Fact is, you misunderstood me very badly a year ago and no matter what I say, you'll just act like a dimwit. There is a lot you don't know so stop looking at the cover of the book and start looking IN it.

Armenia is a country with most of it's borders closed so they lose alot of trade by that.

Do you know how much money annually walks into this nation? One billion dollars minimum. I know buddy, hard to believe isn’t it? This has been proven by many people, even at the top. So where does all this damn money go? The people sure as hell don't see it!

We should start investing in our country us living in the diaspora. We need to go back and start bussnises there make job oppurtinities for the people.

I'm gonna say this once and only once Karo. Let's see if your nationalism will allow you to conceive useful information just this once.

Let's start this from the top, shall we? Read every single word! I'm saying all this for YOU although you don't deserve it at all. Thank Anoush alone!

You say people should come and invest. That's not a bad idea .

Have you ever asked yourself why people ... don't come? Forget the war and all those excuses. That's not even ten percent of the reason why people aren't coming. It’s logical but not real. It isn’t the main reason.

People don't come because of the sons of xxxxxes leading this country. Yep, the same gov. you're eating your heart out for! Here are a few examples of what happens when people try to invest.

Example #1: Kirk Kirkiryan (and many like him) wanted to invest here in Armenia and he did and you know what our officials did? They ate his money like wolves. See, he wasn’t the one purchasing whatever was required. The gov. was. They assured him that they would use his investment wisely. So where did all the millions of dollars go? Fact is, right now, Armenia's roads alone should've been made of gold. There should've been NO BEGGERS ON THE STREETS. And just for your info, they're increasing ... not decreasing! We have gotten SO MUCH MONEY from the outside but every dollar has disappeared in a day. We never see what happens to it all. What the gov. does is create a small bridge or clean up a street and make it look like the money is being put to good use. Kirk was so pissed off, he left…..just like so many others!

Example #2: You know how many Russian investors wanted to come to Armenia? BIG INVESTORS mind you. There were many. Why didn't they come? Because of the chances of war? Don't make me laugh my head off, I've had enough from your posts. They didn't come because of the pathetic gov. that screws my country every day. You know what the officials say? They say come to Armenia but let us deal with the money. You deal with the business and just sign the bills and checks basically which makes it very easy for the money to be manipulated. So it’s like you start investing in a project of your own (or a gov. project) and the gov. tells you how much it needs to continue doing this or that. Trusting them, you give them what they need without realizing that not even half of the money is being used properly. The Armenians from Russia are the smartest in the world though. They know what's going on and don’t take the bait. They say they want to control how much they invest and physically do whatever it is they want to do here and the gov. kicks them out! How ironic. They do this to EVERYONE. Then they make a law that doesn't allow investors to control their investments. They always have to have the money in there hands and when they do, 99% of the time, the money disappears or gets used up in the wrong way. Just look at how many unfinished buildings, projects, roads, etc. there are here in Armenia. They never get completed. here's a good example of money manipulation. This is fairly recent. 50 yellow buses were to be bought by the gov. if I’m not mistaken and they're here now. Soon something happened though. The people figured out that the gov. apparently used twice (or was it thrice?) as much money buying them then was intended. The prices of the buses didn’t change at all. Say each bus cost $20,000. The gov. spent $50-60,000 dollars on each one according to their accounts. So see, they bought the buses at low prices in reality but made it look expensive so that they could put A LOT of money in their pockets … and they did. There is a trial going on right now if I’m not mistaken and many are trying to cover this issue up just like so many others. Many have already been covered up.....

Example #3: There are naturally many broken roads here in Armenia and many need to be fixed. The gov. has on many, many occasions done the following (until we found out). They fix a road, buying the cement at very high prices (that’s what they say…the prices are actually very low, the extra money goes in the gov. big pocket) and then after it’s completed, they come back a week or month later with some pathetic excuse to reconstruct it! Really simple, isn’t it? Easy money. If all this money was spent properly, this nation would be glowing. Doubt anything but this fact, Karo. Anything but this fact.

The gov. almost BEGS people to not invest here in Armenia. Literally begs people not to come. There are hundreds of big investors (let alone normal people with money in they're hands) that have wanted to come to Yerevan but they left the coming week. The gov. pisses off everyone. These officials have become a xxxxing repellant, keeping everyone away. They don’t allow you to freely invest and do a good job. They have to definitely stick their dirty noses into your business. They don’t just ask for taxes like in normal countries. They eat your nerves AND every xxxxing penny you got in your xxxxing pocket. So, do you still want to invest in Armenia? I don’t blame you if you don’t, lol!

There are hundreds of other examples that can prove how ridiculously all the money that’s coming in is being used but I’d like to talk about something else now…..

The government needs to collect takses from every one and start investing in the countries by constructin works like Hitler did in Germany in the 30s.

Hitler was smart, lol. Our leaders are pathetic. Read on and see if you can digest all this crap. I somehow did. It was a very disgusting experience!

1. There was this foreigner, in his 50’s I think, who was about to leave Yerevan from Zvartnots airport. On his way out, the “officials” there checked his bags as usual but then said that he would have to pay for the clothes on his body! WTF does that mean? Apparently, it was bought here in Armenia (an expensive but very casual outfit, it wasn’t an antique or something, lol) and he had to pay A LOT of taxes and sign papers to be allowed to walk into his plane. This man was a big donor and he had done a lot for this country. He was a VIP. Now he had very little money left in his pocket and these people wanted to take every last penny he had. Now you’ll say he should’ve started a case or something. Too bad Karo, everything was official. The law allowed all this to happen. These people misused him shamefully. What happened after that? He went crazy and started screaming out in English, “What type of people are you?” and “You know what I’ve done for you?”. He took off his shirt, the one he had to pay for, threw it on the ground and entered the plane and probably never returned again. Before leaving, he said, “Why didn’t the Turks finish you off?” and no one said a word. This is one of many examples. Es kursinerin piti TUrkeru mortein vochte mer anmegh joghovurdin. This is how our gov. treats people, Karo. My dad was the one that saw all this and tried to cool this poor man down. This is one of thousands of people that have slipped out of our hands. So many good hearted people want to help but HOW can they? We don't give them a chance to.

2. My dad has a good business going on here and when he was in the airport, bringing in some merchandise, the women in front of him was supposed to receive a small parcel … a $100 pen that her friend/relative in the US sent her for her birthday. She was so happy ... until the airport officials said that she would have to pay taxes to bring it in as it was “expensive”. She very happily asked how much, eager to leave soon, thinking it wouldn’t be too much … I mean it’s just a pen. They spat out 200 xxxxing dollars! TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS? Does that make any xxxxing sense … in ANY country? All her happiness rushed off from her face, getting on a plane out of Zvartsnots in horror probably, and she angrily walked away, throwing the pen on their desk and leaving. My dad later figured out after talking to his business partners that these retards confiscate hundreds of presents, expensive merchandise, etc. every day and no one goes to pick them up because they know they can’t xxxxing afford it. This is what they do every time … under the name of taxes! And no one can do anything about it. Let’s move on…

3. I’d like to talk about our grandmothers here in Yerevan now, selling shemushka or dried sunflower seeds. The gov. recently increased taxes (as if they weren’t already high enough) and that included the taxes of these poor women. Each month, they probably make about 5000 Drams or MAYBE 10000 Drams MAX … if they’re lucky! What the gov. does is raise their taxes to 30000 Drams which they have to pay every month. It’s not just taxes. You’re also paying for the one meter of space you use up to continue your “business” . But THIRTY THOUSANDS DRAMS? These poor people don’t disturb anyone, just taking up their small little corner and trying to make some money for their poor families along with their health issues and you make them pay 30000 Drams when they BARELY make 5000 if they’re lucky? Who the F**K made this xxxxing law according to you, Karo? The war? The people perhaps? This is what your country does. Es khech tatikneru inch mi pogh ein ashkhatum vor duk ekak nurants vura taxer bardetsik ... en el chutesnvats takser? Hima hatsi poghel chunen. Gona arach et unein. Another example is the markets here in Yerevan. The gov. greatly increased their taxes and many are closing down they’re small stores which gave our people a small but steady income. By the time this gov. is done screwing us in whatever position it likes, there won’t be anyone left here in Yerevan.

Have you ever asked yourself why people constantly leave Armenia? Well now you might have a better idea. I can give you literally thousands of examples of how the gov. is spoiling and misusing us along with our patience under the name of taxes and in SO MANY other ways. Every year, we lose thousands of Armenians because they can’t SURVIVE here anymore. No matter where I go, Armenians are simply dumbfounded when they know that I could’ve lived in the US and India without any problems at all but decided to stay in Armenia. They‘re simply amazed. They’re disgusted by all that’s going on and keep asking me why I came back to Yerevan. It just doesn't fit into they're heads. How’s that for caring about your people? Could you do that, Karo?

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Anoushka, Saco in many posts reminds people that he's in Yerevan and apparently no-one else is, no-one else is from there, no-one else has family there, no-one else talks on the phone/internet with family & friends there, no-one else's opinion matters because they don't live there.

Hrai returns again with his doubts ! First off, I haven't just moved here. Second off, I live with the people. And third off, I haven't said anything out of the ordinary, have I? If Karo was from here, he wouldn't support Kocharyan even in his wildest dreams. I have constantly said that I live here because it really matters. having friends/relatives here and actually living here are two different things. I'm not trying to dis anyone. You for some reason continue posting your short messages and I don't have anything else to say to you!

Opinions matter. When have I said they don't? You make me look like a racist. Proper opinions matter, of course. Degrading, illiterate, and disrespectful opinions don't matter at all to me though.

I know what's happening there, I have many family & friends there and honestly prefer there talkings about Yerevan than someone who's just recently moved there but seems to broadcast as the "Voice of Armenia" and shows an immaturity of perspective by screaming abuse at any who disagree.

I haven't just moved here, Hrai. Keep your degrading words to yourself. And just a question, what do your relatives say on the phone? What makes me wrong? And just for the record, Karo didn't "disagree", he dissed our people. There's a difference ... if that even matters to you!

The society needs to change so that corruption will go down and corruption is something that can't be stopped. And to me it seems that some Diasporians wont invest in the country because they don't like who are the top dogs in the country.

The taxes in Armenia are almost non existent and there are people who make allot of money in Russia working for a couple of months. Why not give a small part to the government, a very small part. If everyone should do that than we would have more money to invest in the country.

Wrong again. Read my next post very carefully!You really have no idea what's going on here, pal. Time for some enlightenment....

[merhayrenik]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

done, thanks

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

A nationality that produces Vartan Mamigonyans, Andraniks, Dros, Montes; can and will produce them again.

Let's hope that they'll arrive soon.

Serzh didn't let the rest of the parties such as Dashnagtsoutyun to know what was in the "road map" and Dashnagtsoutyun and the HKK also I believe left the coalition right away because they didn't have faith in Serzh or what and how he was collaborating with the enemy. Why don't you go and read my writings above in this thread and my reasons why I find Serzh and Edward responsible for various things. One of them signing that "Road map" on the eve of our April 24 commemoration day, exactly on April 23rd, they couldn't tell the US or the enemy that they would pefer it at any other day but not on the eve of our April 24th commemoration day? Then they have collaborated with our number one enemy to let the enemy in on our Medzamort Nuclear Power Plant. What kind of a government are they running these people? I and many like myself don't understand all of thise.

ARF was the only one who left the coalition, because there was no openness in the government. That's the only reason I believe. Than blame them for that and alone. He choose the worst time to sign that's true. And what are you talking about the Nuclear plant? There Turks were never let in you're making it sound that they are going to give it to the Turks. They aren't, I think the government hates the Turks as much as we do. You've to remember that Serj is from Artsakh and saw what the Turks did to our people and believe me if there is even one precondition the border will not be opened.

Yes when we see that the governing bodies are living lavishly when the majority of people are extremely poor. What are the people of the country or us looking into the country supposed to say when the governing bodies of the country and their relatives and friends have cell phones, expensive cars, lavish houses, second houses in resort areas, beautiful clothing, lavishly living, and plenty plenty of food on their tables every day; yet the rest of the country is awfully poor so much that a great deal of men they have to leave their country to earn moneys elsewhere to send it to their beloved families. Other than this, what is the government doing to stop the "CORRUPTION" in the country. They really have to work at it and punish each and everyone that has anything to do with corruption in the country. Secondly if the corruption stopped, numerous people from the Diaspora would be able to open heartedly go there and or invest money in the country; but most of them such as myself, I would be afraid that my dollars whatever effort and money that I would put into it will go into the wrong hands. There has been many incidents that people have tried and they have been royally mugged. So yes, by almost totally stopping the "corruption" in the country, many wealthy people would go there and invest money, business and so forth. But the corruption must stop. And who can do it successfully, only the government.

There are always going to be poor and rich, that's never going to change. But today the gap is closing little by little. And please tell me if you would not help out your relatives and friends when you would come to power. Because that would be the first thing you would also do. I believe that's natural that they are helping out their friends and family. Do I think it's right? No, it isn't. There is corruption in every country on the globe there doesn't exists a country where you won't find corruption. And in Armenia there is corruption in every layer of society not only in the top but in all the layers. The society needs to change so that corruption will go down and corruption is something that can't be stopped. And to me it seems that some Diasporians wont invest in the country because they don't like who are the top dogs in the country.

Like I stated above, the corruption is the evil of a great many misfortunes for the country. It's the job of the government to stop it.

Like I said the society must change. In Armenia you see everyone bribing everyone. And they do it for everything, the government can try but if the people don't try to change how can the government stop it.

The government are probably taxing people enough. How can you tax them anymore when the men have to go elsewhere to earn money to send it to their kins to fill their stomachs with food? It surely isn't a simple answer to all of these questions, as much as we want to simplify it. The real answer lies mostly with how the government can and would stop the corruption, live themselves much more humbly and not parade their wealth and high living to the people that are poor and living day by day, and try and see ways to create jobs for almost everyone.

The taxes in Armenia are almost non existent and there are people who make allot of money in Russia working for a couple of months. Why not give a small part to the government, a very small part. If everyone should do that than we would have more money to invest in the country.
In what country do you see members of the government live humble, look at any country you like the people of the government are all living wide, they are rich men that's how things are. Even look at our history our Nakharars had more gold than they could spends but you still had people starving in the country. We need to create a strong middle class, that's what we need in the country and that's why we need create job opportunities.

[hrai]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Now Karothe quite frankly I must say that you have to come up with some kind of kindly talks towards Saco "vor sirde arnes". 1. We are not there to judge our beloved people who are there suffering every day; but he is.

Anoushka, Saco in many posts reminds people that he's in Yerevan and apparently no-one else is, no-one else is from there, no-one else has family there, no-one else talks on the phone/internet with family & friends there, no-one else's opinion matters because they don't live there.
I know what's happening there, I have many family & friends there and honestly prefer there talkings about Yerevan than someone who's just recently moved there but seems to broadcast as the "Voice of Armenia" and shows an immaturity of perspective by screaming abuse at any who disagree.