Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

[Eddo211]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Some info guys:

Patriotism is not a political movement like nationalism or ultra-nationalism. Certain politicians or parties might claim to be "patriotic" but patriotism itself never defines a non-nationalist party. Nationalism itself is a relatively recent political development that accompanied the development of nation-states roughly two centuries ago. At its most fundamental level, nationalism defines common identity/values (which may or may not be expressed in ethnic/cultural terms) that is or should be shared by all citizens of the nation-state. This is a good thing and our hardliner Dashnak party fits in this category.

Ultra-nationalism is another beast. It is not just a case of taking the above to the extreme but the shifting of nationalism to the very centre of the political agenda. For ultra-nationalists everything is viewed through the prism of nationalism and the need to increase the status/power/integrity of the nation at all costs foreign or domestic. Some Ultra-Nationalistic leaders were the kinds of Benito Mussolini, whose Fascists seized power in Italy in 1922, Adolf Hitler, whose Nazis took over Germany in 1933.
Ultra-nationalism was the most important single cause of WWI, becoming even more potent and poisonous in the 1920s and 1930s, leading to a second world war. In Italy and Germany extreme nationalism was the driving force behind rightwing, antidemocratic movements and in Japan, ultranationalists never subverted the limited democracy established by the 1890 constitution, but in the 1930s their views inspired millions and became dogma (the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot) within the Japanese military.

To take a specific example, in the Weimar Republic the liberals (such as Stresemann) were traditionally supporters of democratic practices and free trade but they nonetheless supported the annexation of lands, particularly in Russia, to provide fresh markets and resources for the nation. They were nationalist. In contrast the ultra-nationalist Hitler had no real political beliefs beyond those needed to bolster the Fatherland. If dictatorship and government control of the economy was needed to achieve national superiority then so be it. If Germany could only be bettered through a campaign of genocide then that was fine. Everything is revolved around the nation-state and destroying those who threatened it including their own people. A good example of an ultra-nationalist party in a government today is the Israeli hawkish Yisrael Beiteinu party lead by Avigdor Lieberman. Another one is the new Solvak government which has embraced coalition partners Ján Slota, president of the extreme right-wing Slovak National Party (SNS) and thrice prime minister Vladimir Meciar, head of the Peoples' Party-Movement for Democratic Slovakia. The Slovak National Party is well-known for its xenophobic and ultra-nationalistic views on minorities, especially against Hungarians and Roma. Turkey’s Ergenekons are another extreme ultra-nationalist organization which we are up against.

Cheers.

[hipeter924]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Nationalism can be dangerous at times especially in the case of Serbian nationalism and the breakup of Yugoslavia. But we have to keep in mind Nationalism forms and defends a nation, which in that case can be a positive force. Everyone has the right to love their country, but I don't think people have the right to hate nations or ethnic groups that have done nothing to them. That's what happened in the Ottoman Empire, they committed genocide against the Armenian's because their hate got the better of them.

[hrai]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I don't believe that nationalism divides people unless the division comes from one party working against the other party, just because the other party exists and no other reason; and believe me I know such parties or people that hate anyone belonging to a party that they are not part of. I also condone such acts of people.

I didn't as yet say it to you or to Saco about myself to be an Ultra-Nationalist; but in various occasions Saco talked against anyone being a nationalist; and personally I am a nationalist and I see everything positive in myself for being a patriot and a nationalist. And if I wasn't a Patriot my roots of pure Nationalistic feelings wouldn't originate from it either.

Some people here post negatively about Nationalists, using it sometimes as an insult (!), they also talk about "Ultra-Nationalism" .
How can "Ultra-Nationalism" exist? You're either a Nationalist or not, simple as. The glass can be no more full than 100%.
The really interesting point amongst all this is that the people who are accusing others, ie Nationalists, of intolerance, narrow-mindedness and extremist views, are most often the ones actually guilty of intolerance,narrow-mindedness and extremist views!

You're right Anoushka about the slavering neighbours East & West, the sly, good for nothing Georgians to the North. Without Nationalists Hayastan would already be like Nakhichevan and if no Nationalists in the future......that could still happen.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

By the way guys, it's my Mom and Dad's 21st Anniversary today ! Got them roses early in the morning and our entire family will be out in the city for the rest of the day. Just wanted to share this with all of you. See around joghovurt . All the best!

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

How are they fighting, how many will stand up and defend the country when the time is there not many I believe. They are no fighters. the soldiers and the generals protected who we were and they died for it I can't even believe you dare to compare them with each other.

You don't understand WHO I'm comparing. Your nationalism has no boundaries I see. It blinds you the second someone says something against your "principles". I don't understand how YOU dare to say something against these people. Who are you, Karo? These people have done more then you or everyone on these forums PUT TOGETHER have EVER done in their entire lives. Who are they, you ask? I'm afraid that's beyond your primitive understanding. You have to go through a lot still to understand who they are.

The fighters fight for Hayastan, they are fighting for mayr Hayastan. They are fighting for the people their family the soldier doesn't care about the things that you are talking about. And haven't they gotten money for their apartment? They did than nothing illegal has happened. Those kind of things happen here too so it's not only our evil government.

Wrong views, wrong comparisons, and wrong perspectives. What makes you think the people I mentioned aren't fighting? They continue to fight till today and have been fighting way before YOU or ANY OF US were born so you can keep your BS and offence to yourself, Karo. That's another apology you owe.

People have been complaining about the generation that's coming behind them since they could write and even before that and the world is still advancing strange isn't it.

Here's another bit of evidence that you don't know what's going on here. Your really making it easy for me. I don't need to prove anything. No one that knew the people would say something like this.

You don't know much Karo and when you agree with that, you'll start to see what's going on.

Too me they are ordinary people who don't deserve a special treatment too me they are normal people

That's why you don't know anything and I don't want to talk with a person who has teh balls to disrespect at this level. Anyone that claims to know the people, wouldn't say this. You perhaps know a little bit about economy and politics, but you don't know the people. That's your weak end and that's why you will never understand what they need and what needs to change.

No you are right the people need to take up arms and fight against the government look how much it has helped our neighbors yes they should give up a government that has made that the prosperity rise every year. yeah you are so right

Maybe not now, but the people have to rise up. I'm not saying a revolution has to take place. I'm just saying we need to pull ourselves together and stand together. I am right and I always stand by what I say which has been proven and comes from experience alone. I already told you what you can do with your sarcasm.

[Gavur]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

I still don't get what we surrendered? Tashnaks withdrawal from government is just a tactical move that will benefit for all (it's mostly formality), and has no significant connection to anything we may have supposedly surrendered.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

No it didn't everything comes before the Armenian governments it goes back to the 50's and even before that I believe. So how can you blame the government for something like that.

After the war, the Armenian gov. came. ALL our problems didn't come from Soviet times. Don't give me that. I know exactly what the Soviet Union was like. In many respects, it was better back then, believe it or not.

All I'm saying for a long time is that if our gov., starting from Levon and Kocharyan, did a better job, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. I don't understand why you feel bad when I say this.

There are tough condition, should that stop them? No! If one wants to open a business in Armenia they will they wont care that they must jump through a couple of few hoops to reach their goal.

Our hoops are very dirty and no one wants to jump through them. The gov. doesn't give you peace. Why would Armenians want to come here and bring they're prospering business's knowing that they have to go through lot's and lot's of pathetic problems ... many of which you can never see in any other country? Your thinking with economics in mind ... not business or the people.

Those charity pennies that we are getting, is that you are talking about? That's nothing a couple of million at most maybe enough to build one apartment block. And wasn't there a high way being build between Hayastan and Artsakh? Where did the money come from? Those were the charity pennies. Nothing big has entered the country. I'm talking about at least 10 bill. so we can have money for reforms in the country.

Not charity pennies, Karo, real money. So many people wanted to invest but when they saw this gov. treating the money like confetti, they left immediately. We had opportunities and our past two presidents screwed up really bad. You can agree with this or believe what you want. The facts don't change I'm afraid.

According to you that is.

And for a reason, Karo. I've been talking to businessmen, individuals trying to live here, rich families, poor families, middleclass families, SO MANY different people. Everyone is leaving and for very good reasons, every one of them. No one ever talked about war. That issue is out there but it isn't the main concern of the people. My dad is a businessman as well. I think your forgetting that.

it's not like they want to waste money, the government that is.

You are thinking politically with a foreign country and laws in mind. Our country is different. It runs differently. To sum it up, you know what Indira Gandhi said when she came to Yerevan during the Soviet era? After just THREE DAYS here, talking with our officials, she described Armenians in one line. "Very hard working, will do anything to get money". The funny part is ... she was right! Why are you wasting my time trying to make our gov. look holy and our people evil? Your forgetting that I live here and when I see what your saying and then see what's really going on here, I can't take you seriously. Seeing is believing...

This is a loan not some charity thing that we are getting. So I'm 100% sure that this will be put to good use.

Let's just hope they don't put it to "good use" like they did in the past!

uhmmm............ you are wrong the cop acts on his own and puts all of the money in his own pocket. The government doesn't control everything so stop freaking out like that.

Another fact that you don't know anything. Your thinking like a normal person would ... a normal person that lives out there. You don't understand these dirty politics. I've been living with and within them for a long time and talking to people you probably never have so please, stop looking down on me as if I don't know what's going on because I know EXACTLY what's going on.

Not because the government supports it.

Silence is a sign of agreement ... in every circle! If you knew the dirty politics like I did, you'd be talking differently now...have no doubts.

I'm not blaming the people but aren't there people in the government and I think everything in my sentence is correct. What is lot's of money to you please tell me?

Lots of money is money that shouldn't be going in the pockets of corrupted officials like it has been for more then a decade. After the war, EVERYTHING was screwed up and the gov. easily pocketed millions while everyone was trying to get out of all the chaos. It's natural. I just want you to accept that instead of continuing to kiss gov. ass so much. I respect many of your views but when you act this way, I can't take you seriously. Your words give away immediately the fact that you don't know what's going on here. Your judging Armenia along a certain line of standards. Your forgetting how low ours really are.

Just don't know what to say when talking with a person that see things like that and believes that when there is someone new too power things are going to be better. They wont trust me, history has proovn that.

It's hard to trust you when you support Kocharyan, lol. EVERYONE hates him for all the things he did and I see you supporting him. Now there's a good picture...

And how is the government stopping you, they aren't they are even helping but the people(yes the people again) don't want to change the way of living they have. They want money and everything to stay like it is.

*Sigh* You just don't get it, do you? Your implying that the people want to stay miserable. You don't know what's going on, I'm sorry.

Yeah lots of money(I call it penny's compared to other countries).

Don't compare it to other countries. And even when you do, there was a time we received LOT'S of money and this gov. misused it in many ways. How do I know? I don't see a lot of results. Plus, it's natural. During the hard times, it's easy to take out lots of money. No one sees you. Acutally it's something like WW1 and the AG. 1915 was the best time to annihilate our people and the Turks did. After the Kharabagh war, everything was messed up and the gov. did what it liked. The great heroes died and the xxxxxxxs stayed to ruin this nation. Things are SLOWLY changing. Let's see what Serj does this year.

[Sako]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

WRONG in so many ways.

Always prepared to press the "wrong" button, aren't you Hrai , without even trying to understand me. And I thought I was emotional!

That is right Saco jan, it must be spiritual and cannot strictly be on a single path of some extreme ideological and political doctrine which leads you through a path of tunnel vision.

“I am not a Nationalists, I only recognize one Nation……..the Nation of oppressed.”

General Andranik

Thank you Eddo jan. You understand me correctly. Good to have you back mets yekhpayr.

Why is it dangerous Saco? Am I a dangerous species? Because if I am to your eyes or if I am not than I am a true blue nationalist! It's true, I am, I have been all my life and I am still one and I will die one! And because of it I am so loving towards our people... our country which we call our RofA.... and I wish when the time comes to fight until my last breath to make Armenia from sea to sea!!! There, I am a true blue nationalist and there is absolutely nothing wrong with being one, especially when we have such barbaric two nations amidst us and Georgia isn't much better either. Neither the USA and the Zionist xxxs who want to crush us at any given time (be it our sacred cause or our little landlocked country and our vital rightful rights as a nation and as people)!

So yes yes yes.... I am a nationalist and I would cry to the world if I have to that I am proud to be one as I believe in our lovely people who are called ARMENIANS and our loving country ARMENIA. I therefore will support her until my last breath!!!!!! And if I wasn't a nationalistic Armenian I wouldn't feel or talk to you people the way I do now!

Honey, relax, I'm happy just the way you are. I told you I'm not talking about you. If you weren't so nationalistic, you wouldn't get so emotional. We've talked on so many occasions. Have I said anything wrong to you? All I said was that you don't need to feel the way you do by being a nationalist. True love for your country is WAY beyond natonalism.

If they gave me the chance I would love to go and help our country to help them to govern not just with intelligence, but by seeing the big picture.

We all miss you here Anoush jan ! Truly. Just knowing there are people like you in the world gives us the hope to move on.

Saco jan, hrai is right in pointing this out to you. I haven’t read all your long posts but from what I have this is how I feel.
We all want the same thing and you are making many valid points (Thanks Saco for your valuable perspective from the inside), but you are not being rational in your approach……….emotional control and patience is a discipline that must be learned when trying to come up with a solution with your fellow Armenians.

I agree, Eddo jan. Please forgive me guys. I'm never afraid to apologize. I just can't see Karo dissing our people in such a way. It's not healthy, rational, or right. He just recently dissed 20 of the most important people in Armenia and I don't want to continue talking with someone like that.

This is a very healthy discussion but a very emotional one as well and you cannot dismisses completely others point of view. This is a very dynamic situation and even though our Government in Armenia is ultimately responsible for the well being of people and uphold its Democratic laws but after all, they are between a rock and a very hard place Geo-politically dealing with multi-head Serpents………..it is not as easy as to just say they want to line their pockets and nothing else.

Of course, all I'm saying is that if they were more mature in the past, we would see a better country today. Am I wrong?

You know little brother, this just reminded me of my Cousins wife’s brother who after loosing his 17 year old son in a tragic car accident decided to dedicate his whole life completely to Armenia………..he bought land and built from scratch a children school in Yerevan 10 years ago and that school is doing very well now. The other day we were talking and after some Kabob and Whiskey with tears in his eyes he said. “ Ha, so what, let them steal (corruption), Armenians must do what they can anyway they can……” Not that I fully agree but something to consider while we grow as a independent country.

I'm sorry for the loss, mets yehkpayr . I understand what your saying and I've heard many different people say things like that. Definitely, we need to consider everything. Regarding others perspectives. I have been listening to them ... the others haven't been taking me seriously. I have never said someone is less important then I am because I live here and the only reason this conversation began was because Karo dissed our people in the other thread for which he still owes an apology. The way he avoids it all shows how wrong he perceives the Armenian people and I just don't know what to say.

I didn't as yet say it to you or to Saco about myself to be an Ultra-Nationalist; but in various occasions Saco talked against anyone being a nationalist; and personally I am a nationalist and I see everything positive in myself for being a patriot and a nationalist. And if I wasn't a Patriot my roots of pure Nationalistic feelings wouldn't originate from it either.

Nationalism, Patriotism, and True Love for your country are three different things, Anoush jan. They aren't the same. The highest is naturally True Love, then comes patriotism and nationalism. You have to be careful of nationalism though.

I'm saying this again, I'm not the only one saying this. Nzde, General Andranik, and many others have very clearly talked about nationalism, true love, and everything else. They are different things and like I said, I don't want to dwell too deep into the subject. Maybe in another thread. But again, no one said you are an ULTRA Nationalist or a very bad person. How can we say that? I said something completely different.

[Eddo211]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Today a odar asked me, when I was telling him how great Armenia was, "What could Armenia possibly do? It's too small and fragile."

I responded, "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."

We may be a small country but we are one of the best.

That sums it up just about right Sero. There is a reason why we are still around after 5000 years.

[Pazooki]

Re: Say NO to Capitulation - Surrendering to the Turks

Today a odar asked me, when I was telling him how great Armenia was, "What could Armenia possibly do? It's too small and fragile."

I responded, "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."

We may be a small country but we are one of the best.