That joke of a country called Armenia?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

There is no f@ggot army in the middle east because there is no such thing as a f@ggot in the middle east. There is only git-veren (ass giver), the logic being that if you are the sodomizer and not the "sodomizee", you are perfectly manly. Homosexuality exists, albeit covertly, within the fabric of the macho-ideal in Islamic countries and the middle east in general.

I've a feeling that when in Levon's company, best keep your back against the wall.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

Your comment about emos not having the will to stand up for themselves is betrayed by the fact that some of them have had the guts to do so, and criticize the state's activities against them. That to me is not a mark of underachievement and self-pity, otherwise they would withdraw to their bedrooms complain about the cruelty of the world they live in. And if there are people who do withdraw like this, they can only do so for so long before having to make a decision: either take their own lives to leave this world that they feel they cannot live in, or to stand up for their self-expression, desires and sense of identity. The state cracking down on the emo sub-culture only serves as a catalyst for this personal decision making process, which is not at all restricted to emos, but applies to all sorts of people and communities who face feelings of hopelessness.

There are many brave people in Armenia who are willing to resist the unjust and unacceptable. And it is surprising how many of them are women.

But if there were a companion thread to this one, a thread that existed to document examples of individual and collective courage as opposed to individual and collective stupidity, which one do you think Levon, Tigranakert, et alii, would dislike more? We both know the answer.

[jgk3]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

Armenians are human beings first and foremost, and if being Armenian is equated with denial of some of our basic desires to learn and grow in our own personal way, just so we can preserve our culture, then what is our culture worth to us really? If culture is not a two way street, what's the point?

Levon, Artsakhtsis fought in defense of their lives, they were singled out because they were Armenian. Therefore, their victory in battle was a victory for Armenia yes, but their strong will came from their desire to live and continue to keep their lives on their ancestrial lands. But they are an example of an ethnic group, what about oppressed groups that are not based on ethnicity, such as gender for example? Of course when they make their resistance to their oppressors, it's not going to be in trenches, that is warfare and happens between countries, not between genders. Same with sub-cultures. If you want to see the same bravery and courage you saw in Artsakhtsi warriors in sub-cultures standing up for their right to exist, you'll have to accept it manifesting itself differently, and not dismiss it just because it's "complaining" with words rather than bullets fired from men dressed in military uniform.

And I agree, it takes more than complaining to get something done in your defense, you do have to take action, but speaking out is a first step. Armenians who wanted their right to self determination at the end of the Soviet Union were speaking out, and this angered the state and the ASSR, then Armenians were forced into an arena of violence and ethnic cleansing that forced them to have to back up those words with armed resistance, or to perish and have survivors mope about their loss.

The Armenian state acts as the oppressor towards its own prejudiced minority groups, and can throw them into a similar arena where they are forced to act, or perish.

I'm glad to hear that many women in Armenia aren't taking the status quo as a religion, bell.

[levon]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

Bell-the-cat, you have ignored requests for proving your points too many times, and thus your post deserve nothing but the title of bull-sh!t, so doesn't matter what you write, you're still full of sh!t.

Armenians are human beings first and foremost, and if being Armenian is equated with denial of some of our basic desires to learn and grow in our own personal way, just so we can preserve our culture, then what is our culture worth to us really? If culture is not a two way street, what's the point?

I get what you are saying; however, for a second you need to step back and separate your ideas of westernized "human-rights" and the ability of Armenians to survive. A rich country such as the US with a large population can afford to have many sub-cultures as there will always be a large number of people willing to protect the American way of life.

Don't forget that sub-cultures divide the people. Emo kids identify first as emo rather than American. Similarly, feminists (and most women) identify first as women than Americans. Meaning, their main priorities are with their sub-culture rather than the country at large. This is great in America as dividing the country into sub-cultures makes it that much easier to gather votes. Now, ask yourself. Who drives these sub-cultures? Music, writers? Whatever it is, these people usually give priority to their sub-culture.

This would be disastrous to Armenia. If a sizable portion of the population belongs to a sub-culture (which would very likely be derived from the west), then Armenian will no longer belong to Armenians. It's a way to destroy the country from within. A sub-culture gives a fake identity to its followers. An Armenian kid would call him/herself an emo, and not Armenian, and thus be open to ideas that may be detrimental to the country as a whole, but will seem beneficial to him/her.

Sometimes, sacrifices must be made in order to preserve our culture. If making Armenian the only identity in Armenia is what's required, then I feel no shame in saying that Armenia needs no f@ggots, emo, goth, ...

Levon, Artsakhtsis fought in defense of their lives, they were singled out because they were Armenian. Therefore, their victory in battle was a victory for Armenia yes, but their strong will came from their desire to live and continue to keep their lives on their ancestrial lands. But they are an example of an ethnic group, what about oppressed groups that are not based on ethnicity, such as gender for example? Of course when they make their resistance to their oppressors, it's not going to be in trenches, that is warfare and happens between countries, not between genders. Same with sub-cultures. If you want to see the same bravery and courage you saw in Artsakhtsi warriors in sub-cultures standing up for their right to exist, you'll have to accept it manifesting itself differently, and not dismiss it just because it's "complaining" with words rather than bullets fired from men dressed in military uniform.

The point I was trying to make is that if the Artsakhtsis had just complained to the media there would be no Artsakh.

And I agree, it takes more than complaining to get something done in your defense, you do have to take action, but speaking out is a first step. Armenians who wanted their right to self determination at the end of the Soviet Union were speaking out, and this angered the state and the ASSR, then Armenians were forced into an arena of violence and ethnic cleansing that forced them to have to back up those words with armed resistance, or to perish and have survivors mope about their loss.

Lets forget the legal talk. We, Armenians, saw an opening for freedom and we took it. We were prepared for armed struggle before the talk started, and trust me, there was no doubt that there would be war.

The Armenian state acts as the oppressor towards its own prejudiced minority groups, and can throw them into a similar arena where they are forced to act, or perish.

Here is the problem. Calling the goth, the emo, the whatever a minority immediately forces those people to identify themselves first as emo, goth, whatever, than Armenians. It's a very good tactic to separate nationalism from an individual. Introducing sub-cultures is the best way to kill patriotism and leave the country open.

These are not minorities, just kids who have no desire to be normal productive members of a society.

Now, Armenia does have minorities, kurds, lezgis, russians, etc, however, Armenia DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST Kurds, Lezgis, Russians, and its other minorities Please don't post BS like that again.

Furthermore, lets refrain from using words such as "oppressor", "oppressed", blah. Those are just words to detriment a country. Armenia must remain FREE and most importantly ARMENIAN. If that means emo, goths, f@ggots cannot live freely then be it. The SURVIVAL of the Armenian state is MORE IMPORTANT than some punk lazy kids wanting to be losers.

I'm glad to hear that many women in Armenia aren't taking the status quo as a religion, bell.

Again, lets not separate Armenians into groups, and yes, putting more attention to womens issues IS separating Armenians into groups. An Armenian is an Armenian, be it man or woman, and each has his or her own part in continuing the legacy of our ancestors. Western values divide the society into groups to make it easier to control. We don't need western bs invading Armenia.

Finally, here is how emo kids "stand up for themselves"

http://viewstreetfights.com/owned/russian-guy-beats-up-five-emo-kids/

Armenia needs no losers who just stand still and take a beating. Our enemies are many and they're not kind

[bell-the-cat]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

While another member of Yerevan's mafiosi (this time its former mayor) is talking about starting yet another political "party" as a front to continue his criminal activities, Yerevan's thugs in police uniforms busy themselves in a teenage girl's bedroom.


Agence France Presse
Dec 26 2010

Armenian police target teenage rock cult
By Mariam Harutunian (AFP)


YEREVAN - When police officers arrived at 13-year-old Masha's home,
searched her room and inspected her computer, it was not because they
suspected her of any crime.

Her offence was simply to be a devoted follower of the angst-ridden
punk-rock subculture known as 'emo', in an ex-Soviet state where
pressures to conform remain strong.

"It was offensive and frightening at the same time," said Masha, a
schoolgirl in the Armenian capital, clearly upset by the experience.

Police in Yerevan have been conducting a campaign against the
capital's small but controversial emo community since the recent
suicides of two teenagers who were rumoured to have been emo fans.

They claim that the subculture represents a threat to young people's welfare.

Officers have visited schools, searched pupils whose distinctive
clothing marks them out as possible 'emos', and mounted surveillance
on public places where young people gather.

Several fans have been detained for questioning, despite the lack of
any specific legislation against the musical genre or its followers.

In a recent newspaper interview, Armenia's Chief of Police, Alik
Sarkisian, claimed that emo could "damage our gene pool". "We should
fight against such phenomena because they are morally harmful to our
people," he said.

Emo -- an abbreviation of 'emotional' -- is a more melodic and
melancholy form of punk rock. It has origins in the United States but
has become a well-established global subculture in recent years.

Masha and her friend Ani, also 13, say they started dressing in the
unconventional emo style in an attempt to stand out from what they
call "the grey masses".

But they now feel that they have to disguise themselves in ordinary
clothes for fear of detention or harassment by other youths. "They
point and laugh at us. Or even worse, they sometimes beat up our
boys," Ani said.

Sensationalist media reports in Europe have suggested that the gloomy
lyrics of some emo songs can influence teenagers to harm themselves or
attempt suicide, although fans have consistently rejected the
accusation.

Emo devotees in Britain and Russia staged protests two years ago
against what they saw as negative stereotyping.

Some people in Yerevan not only believe that emo can cause suicidal
depression, but also see it as a degenerate Western influence on
traditional Armenian values.

Members of the youth wing of a local police association held a march
against the subculture in the capital this month, carrying banners
that read "No to foreign perversions!"

One teacher in a Yerevan suburb, who asked not to be named, said the
directors of some schools supported the police action, and had even
been actively encouraging officers to search pupils who dressed
unusually and check them for signs of self-harm.

"We suspected one female pupil of being an emo. We invited our
district policeman and the pupil's parents to come in, and explained
how dangerous the consequences of this could be," the teacher said.

A local human rights activist compared the police's behaviour to a
Communist-era witch-hunt.

"It is like the repression in Soviet times, when law enforcement
agencies were chasing hippies, punks and rockers -- all those who
refused to live within society's limits and be like everyone else,"
said Mikael Danielian, chairman of the Helsinki Committee of Armenia.

But the police say they are only intervening to protect vulnerable
youngsters. "We are simply doing our job," said the police colonel
responsible for youth affairs, Nelli Durian.

"We are conducting explanatory, preventative work among teenagers and
their parents to prevent children from becoming hooligans and from
thoughts of suicide."

However, she said that she could not blame emo music for the reported
rise in teenage suicide attempts in Armenia this year.

Young fans like Masha and Ani have been worried by the anti-emo
campaign, but they insist that they will not be pressured into
abandoning the subculture that they love.

"It is impossible to ban youth movements using repressive methods,"
Ani said defiantly. "We will not stop listening to our music and
dressing how we like. This is my choice."

[Yedtarts]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

^^^^
It’s all good, I don’t see anything’s wrong with what’s happening in Armenia. I would’ve done the same thing to heal a society from this illness.

[KanadaHye]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

There are many brave people in Armenia who are willing to resist the unjust and unacceptable. And it is surprising how many of them are women.

But if there were a companion thread to this one, a thread that existed to document examples of individual and collective courage as opposed to individual and collective stupidity, which one do you think Levon, Tigranakert, et alii, would dislike more? We both know the answer.

Typical western treachery... appealing to the emotions of women in a society to undermine the wisdom that recognizes B.S. when it sees it

An vor ge hartsage bidi hartsagvi ays ashkhrarin metch. If you are violent towards violent neighbours, you may give them a taste of their own medicine and they'll think twice about striking again. If you are violent towards non-violent citizens, you will give rise to a cause, you will create martyrs and men who are willing to die for precious freedom. That's the difference.

A country that is devoid of men willing to forfeit their lives for freedom does not exist, but Stalin and Siberian gulags did exist. That is the kind of solution you seek then, in order to preserve your precious culture.

This might be true... however, I have a suspicion that no Armenian mother or father wishes their offspring engage in these oppressive cults that are systematically spread through pop culture.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

Typical western treachery... appealing to the emotions of women in a society to undermine the wisdom that recognizes B.S. when it sees it



This might be true... however, I have a suspicion that no Armenian mother or father wishes their offspring engage in these oppressive cults that are systematically spread through pop culture.

There is a thesis there to be written about characters like KanadaHye. They are the Christian equivalent of the typical bigoted Muslim imigrant we all know about: those that squat in other peoples' countries, secretly despising every aspect of that country, while instilling their third-world peasant mentalities into their numerous offspring. I'd love that section of Armenian diaspora society to be revealed to outsiders.

[KanadaHye]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

There is a thesis there to be written about characters like KanadaHye. They are the Christian equivalent of the typical bigoted Muslim imigrant we all know about: those that squat in other peoples' countries, secretly despising every aspect of that country, while instilling their third-world peasant mentalities into their numerous offspring. I'd love that section of Armenian diaspora society to be revealed to outsiders.

Don't worry, I reveal my mentality to the general dim witted public but they usually don't have the mental capacity to comprehend the complex politics of the world. I openly despise certain aspects of my host country as every democratic citizen should do. Squatting usually involves being an unproductive member of society whereas I have achieved more in half a life time than many westerners do over 4 generations.

[jgk3]

Re: That joke of a country called Armenia?

I get what you are saying; however, for a second you need to step back and separate your ideas of westernized "human-rights" and the ability of Armenians to survive. A rich country such as the US with a large population can afford to have many sub-cultures as there will always be a large number of people willing to protect the American way of life.

At what point would Armenia be rich and populous enough to be able to afford sub-cultures? Russia is richer and more populous, and yet feels threatened by the west no less. China is the most populous country in the world, and they can be extremely heavy handed against some sub-cultures and religious followings and have been very anti-western up until the past decade. They also have the world's largest standing army. In my opinion, this has nothing to do with the size and strength of your country, it only has to do with the leadership and what kind of profile they are willing to accept for the masses they rule over.

Now, when an entire country is willing to accept the punishments inflicted by the state on a group or individual, that group or individual will naturally seek to defend themselves with support coming from outside the country. What then happens is that this group or individual will not only be brandished as following some heresy, they will also become traitors, and anyone who considers their point of view will be considering exactly that, heresy and treason.

Don't forget that sub-cultures divide the people. Emo kids identify first as emo rather than American. Similarly, feminists (and most women) identify first as women than Americans. Meaning, their main priorities are with their sub-culture rather than the country at large. This is great in America as dividing the country into sub-cultures makes it that much easier to gather votes. Now, ask yourself. Who drives these sub-cultures? Music, writers? Whatever it is, these people usually give priority to their sub-culture.

So what, I consider myself human before Armenian. I guess you can call that a super-culture. But in no way do I see how that gets in the way of my ethnic background, my language use and cultural knowledge, or the fact that I get involved with my family and church. But I am free to identify myself with anything really, I can identify myself as a fan of rock, metal, classical music... How would that bear any context with my identity as an Armenian?

I suppose the real criteria for why you're upset about emos is because they might seem like they aren't participating enough (at this stage in their lives) in Armenian society in the ways that you would wish. And of course, when we hear of some cases of suicide, then we, and not the emos, start to identify them with it.

Subcultures are just offshoots of mainstream cultures. In Armenia, I'm sure there's a soccer sub-culture, a metal sub-culture, gun clubs, etc... These don't divide the country, until the leadership decides that they are hazardous and measures are taken against the people who form one of those sub-cultures.

This would be disastrous to Armenia. If a sizable portion of the population belongs to a sub-culture (which would very likely be derived from the west), then Armenian will no longer belong to Armenians. It's a way to destroy the country from within. A sub-culture gives a fake identity to its followers. An Armenian kid would call him/herself an emo, and not Armenian, and thus be open to ideas that may be detrimental to the country as a whole, but will seem beneficial to him/her.

Sometimes, sacrifices must be made in order to preserve our culture. If making Armenian the only identity in Armenia is what's required, then I feel no shame in saying that Armenia needs no f@ggots, emo, goth, ...

Why can't the emo call him or herself an Armenian emo? The f@ggot an "Armenian homosexual"? Why can't identities be compounded? In my opinion, they indeed can be, but to others, because they don't want it to be possible for an Armenian to be those things, you can either be an Armenian, or a xxxxxx/emo/goth, etc... This in my opinion encourages adherents of sub-cultures to get even deeper into them, because now they are being seen as not welcome in mainstream, Armenian society. And the deeper they get into them, the more noise the state and its conservative followers will make against them. In my opinion, it's better to just leave them be and pretty much treat them like everyone else, with the same rights and obligations. Life is hard enough as it is, it's not like they have some kind of special freedom or advantage in society by doing their thing.

Here is the problem. Calling the goth, the emo, the whatever a minority immediately forces those people to identify themselves first as emo, goth, whatever, than Armenians. It's a very good tactic to separate nationalism from an individual. Introducing sub-cultures is the best way to kill patriotism and leave the country open.

These are not minorities, just kids who have no desire to be normal productive members of a society.

Well, if the real problem with these individuals is that they're not productive members of society, why didn't you say so? Why did we have to go through this whole song an dance about their identity, which is just as much fomented by the state cracking down on them?

Now, Armenia does have minorities, kurds, lezgis, russians, etc, however, Armenia DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST Kurds, Lezgis, Russians, and its other minorities Please don't post BS like that again.

Furthermore, lets refrain from using words such as "oppressor", "oppressed", blah. Those are just words to detriment a country. Armenia must remain FREE and most importantly ARMENIAN. If that means emo, goths, f@ggots cannot live freely then be it. The SURVIVAL of the Armenian state is MORE IMPORTANT than some punk lazy kids wanting to be losers.

I wonder... see, Neo-Nazis are also a sub-culture, why don't you include them in your list of emo, goths, f@ggots?
And I never posted "BS" about Armenia discriminating against ethnic minorities.

Again, lets not separate Armenians into groups, and yes, putting more attention to womens issues IS separating Armenians into groups. An Armenian is an Armenian, be it man or woman, and each has his or her own part in continuing the legacy of our ancestors. Western values divide the society into groups to make it easier to control. We don't need western bs invading Armenia.

Well shiit, we gotta meet eachother half way then if we don't want to separate Armenians into groups, stop freaking out about peoples' individual human interests and maybe we'll be able to live together as Armenians without blaming the west and beating up an emo kid so we can feel more patriotic and good inside.