Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

[armenica]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

Thank you very much for pointing that out!

Here is an interesting article (I am an ecologist. I see absolutely no 'scientific' basis for a name change. Absurd.):

Paging George Orwell

"ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey has renamed some animal species, saying foreign scientists opposed to its territorial integrity had chosen their former names with ill intent, the Environment Ministry has said....

The ministry said the animals' new names had been chosen as result of scientific studies...

This could be taken right out of Orwell's description of Newspeak; the next logical step will be to phase out the very words "Armenia" and "Kurdistan" from all grammars..."

http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com..._george_o.html

Well, it was so absurd, that BBC first thought it was a bad joke, before they realised that it was in fact true! The same was for two European organisations I relayed the news to, who first asked if I was serious about it and then found it highly "amusing".

[Anahita]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

Well, it was so absurd, that BBC first thought it was a bad joke, before they realised that it was in fact true! The same was for two European organisations I relayed the news to, who first asked if I was serious about it and then found it highly "amusing".

I find this both very disturbing and offensive, on so many levels. If you can tell me, what organizations found this news highly "amusing?"

[armenica]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

I find this both very disturbing and offensive, on so many levels. If you can tell me, what organizations found this news highly "amusing?"

I think I didn't make it clear: they were amused in a sarcastic manner, not in reflection to the decision itself.

I don't have the email at hand, but I forward the news to a group of people which I have on my mailing list and they had, in their turn, forwarded it to among others political and other organisations within Europe and EU. It was one of the people on my list who replied my email and told me the reaction of the organisation (I don't recall which). Their immediate reation was that "when you expected that the Turkish government, due to the negotiation talks for EU membership, would strive for more constructive steps, they go and do soemthing like this that reflects the desperate measures of some circles in Turkey who want erase all traces of "Armenia" and "Armenians" within the country in order to get rid of that particular obstacle in the coming negotiations."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4328285.stm

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

I wish that my opinion was only a theory; then at least all would be OK with non-Turkish historical heritage within its borders.

But why give up? You still push for the idea of that the Armenians of diaspora are to be blamed for the disappearance of Armenian churhces (in one way or another) in Turkey, an idea that is absurd to me. You may have been to Turkey and I don't know if you are of Armenian origin or not, but many Armenians I know who travelled to Turkey were not as welcomed as you have been, far less invited to restore Armenien cultural sites in Turkey. Your idea sounds more like the historian professor Cicek who during a conference about the genocide actually claimed that the Armenian diaspora would be grateful for the deportations and even compensate the Turkish government for their expenses during the deportations. Then he invited prof. Dadrian to "take your Armenian disapora money and come to Turkey to research about the genocide". Your implecation about the preservation of Armenian churches doesn't make much more sense than his absurd invitation which caused people laugh.

The Armenian diaspora in the shape of its activists should certainly be blamed. In fact, I think they should take the majority of any blame. They are a bunch of immoral con-artists who have for several generations shamelessly exploited the condition of Armenian monuments in Turkey for their own financial gain and internal power-politics. It is in their interests that nothing should ever be done to save Armenian monuments in Turkey. What will they do if there are no more "churches converted into urinals" - they will have to find a new stick to beat Turkey with. (Though actually the stick exists only to beat their fellow Armenians into following their party line).

I have been fortunate to have travelled in eastern Turkey with loads of Armenians - probably over 500 in total over the years - and none of them have ever had any trouble. Maybe the Armenians you know were not welcomed because they were just a**holes.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

This could be taken right out of Orwell's description of Newspeak; the next logical step will be to phase out the very words "Armenia" and "Kurdistan" from all grammars..."

It already has. Look at geography textbooks and reference books from 60 or 70 years ago and you will find references to the "Armenian plateau" or the "mountain ranges of Armenia" when the geology of eastern Turkey is being described - look at them now and all that has all been excised (I'm not talking about Turkish textbooks here, but those used in western universities).

[armenica]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

The Armenian diaspora in the shape of its activists should certainly be blamed. In fact, I think they should take the majority of any blame. They are a bunch of immoral con-artists who have for several generations shamelessly exploited the condition of Armenian monuments in Turkey for their own financial gain and internal power-politics. It is in their interests that nothing should ever be done to save Armenian monuments in Turkey. What will they do if there are no more "churches converted into urinals" - they will have to find a new stick to beat Turkey with. (Though actually the stick exists only to beat their fellow Armenians into following their party line).

I have been fortunate to have travelled in eastern Turkey with loads of Armenians - probably over 500 in total over the years - and none of them have ever had any trouble. Maybe the Armenians you know were not welcomed because they were just a**holes.

Now you're being totally ilogical and making unfair statements about people you don't know.

You might be right about part of the elite in the Armenian political organisations, but far from all. It is not the lack of the will of the Armenia diaspora which let the Armenian monuments to fall part in Turkey nor they propaganda value of their conversion into toilets. You speak sa if everything else converning Armenia and Armenians in Turkey is a OK and only the monuments and churches are the problem due to inadequate Armenian support. You know that it is not so.

By the way, three of the people refused to climb Mt. Ararat for 7-8 months ago were Persians (Iranians) with "ian" at the end of their surname and were refused to accompany rest of the team since the Turkish authorities thought they were Armenians. Do you honestly blieve that this regime would allow Armenians to step in and restore their churches when they are doing everything to erase all possible traces of Armenians?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

You might be right about part of the elite in the Armenian political organisations, but far from all. It is not the lack of the will of the Armenia diaspora which let the Armenian monuments to fall part in Turkey nor they propaganda value of their conversion into toilets. You speak sa if everything else converning Armenia and Armenians in Turkey is a OK and only the monuments and churches are the problem due to inadequate Armenian support. You know that it is not so.

I "might be right" about something, so I'm making some progress with you!

But is this really what you believe, you think that every problem between Turkey and Armenia, between Turks and Armenians have to be solved before one Armenian finger should be lifted or one Armenian cent should be spent to save Armenian monuments in Turkey? If that is so then it brings me back to the point I first made, that a pragmatic attitude is needed. Now that I've returned to that, I'll stop - I am not going to go back around the circle again and again.

[armenica]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

I "might be right" about something, so I'm making some progress with you!

Ah! You're one of those therapist types...

But is this really what you believe, you think that every problem between Turkey and Armenia, between Turks and Armenians have to be solved before one Armenian finger should be lifted or one Armenian cent should be spent to save Armenian monuments in Turkey? If that is so then it brings me back to the point I first made, that a pragmatic attitude is needed. Now that I've returned to that, I'll stop - I am not going to go back around the circle again and again.

You're right. No use trying convincing each other, since you think that you already know all there is to know and even know people you haven't met or exchanged one single word with. I still don't believe that one cent of these money would even make it to Western Armenia. Turkey is far far away from that mentality. I am not sure where you live and how updated you are (and by that I don't only mean the Armenian churches) about Turkey, but there are lots of factors which don't fit in your narrow equation.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

Ah! You're one of those therapist types...



You're right. No use trying convincing each other, since you think that you already know all there is to know and even know people you haven't met or exchanged one single word with. I still don't believe that one cent of these money would even make it to Western Armenia. Turkey is far far away from that mentality. I am not sure where you live and how updated you are (and by that I don't only mean the Armenian churches) about Turkey, but there are lots of factors which don't fit in your narrow equation.

OK, I'll classify you as a sort of lab-test-mouse that I've let run around a maze for a while, to study your reactions. Of course I already had a general assumption of what those reactions would be, but one can never have too much test data so it wasn't a total waste of time for me.

[armenica]

Re: Destruction of the Armenian Cemetery at Djulfa

OK, I'll classify you as a sort of lab-test-mouse that I've let run around a maze for a while, to study your reactions. Of course I already had a general assumption of what those reactions would be, but one can never have too much test data so it wasn't a total waste of time for me.

Thank you for verifying my assumption.