Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[Artashes]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

A cool head, a cool hand, and patience.
That's how it played out.
That's what was and is needed.
We retrieved our fallin dispite adamant denial.
And at the same time diffused the situation.
Time is on our side.
That was the first operation in response to their heartless murders.
Not the last.
Must have been an interesting operation.
They represent us.
Well done.

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

A cool head, a cool hand, and patience.
That's how it played out.
That's what was and is needed.
We retrieved our fallin despite adamant denial.
And at the same time diffused the situation.
Time is on our side.
That was the first operation in response to their heartless murders.
Not the last.
Must have been an interesting operation.
They represent us.
Well done.

Wonderful haiku..oh wait..

We retrieved our fallin despite adamant denial.

Referring to my 'adamant' denial?

Wait can someone explain what's going on about the special forces? I'm confused...

Basically, MoD sent Armenian special forces to walk like 200 meters to get the bodies and parts of the helicopter. (sarcasm, just in case Artashes doesn't recognize any)

Bodies of Armenian pilots removed from helicopter crash site
YEREVAN Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:18am EST



(Reuters) - The bodies of three pilots have been removed from a crash site in a special military operation after their helicopter from a region controlled by ethnic Armenians was shown down by Azeri forces earlier this month, officials from the region said.

The downing of the helicopter was the first such incident since a ceasefire was agreed in 1994 following a war over the tiny mountainous territory in the South Caucasus and has ratcheted up tensions between Armenia and oil-producing Azerbaijan.

Azeri armed forces had been preventing soldiers from approaching the crash site and removing the bodies of the pilots, who were on a training flight, according to defense ministry officials in both the Nagorno-Karabakh territory and Armenia.

"As a result of a special operation, the remains of the crew were retrieved, as were specific parts of the helicopter," Karabakh's defense ministry said in a statement on Saturday.

It said that two Azeri soldiers were killed during the operation and that the Armenian side did not suffer any losses.

Azeri officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

Azerbaijan earlier confirmed it had shot down a helicopter but said it was an Armenian aircraft that had intended to attack Azeri soldiers near the mined and heavily guarded line of contact around Nagorno-Karabakh.

The incident highlighted the risk that tensions over Nagorno-Karabakh could trigger a wider conflict in the South Caucasus, through which oil and gas flow from the Caspian region to Europe.

About 30,000 people were killed in fighting between ethnic Azeris and Armenians, which erupted in 1991 as the Soviet Union collapsed.

Mainly Muslim Azerbaijan and predominantly Christian Armenia regularly trade accusations of inciting violence along the Azeri-Armenian border and around Nagorno-Karabakh.

The region runs its own affairs with heavy military and financial backing from Armenia.

The OSCE's Minsk Group, co-chaired by France, Russia and the United States, has failed to find a permanent settlement to the conflict, and no peace treaty has ever been signed.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The problem with the present scenario is that our men are being used as sitting ducks for target practice. The status quo is misleading. Sure we hold artsakh but look at the cost and the fact that baboonastan is getting richer and more powerful during this status quo. I do not see how we value our soldiers more then they value theirs..how can u send an unarmed chopper right into enemy hands like that? I have been praising our leadership when everyone else was spitting on it but this kind of recklessness is not excusable, the senseless loss of life is not tolerable, the lives of our people are not expendable! Heads need to roll for what happened here on both sides of the front line.

[Artashes]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

We have those situations because we are not a nation with no birth certificate and in constant search of identity and fear of other nations. We hold our values, and despite having lost so much to turks, we rather behave and deal with others our way.

I couldn't agree more.
Our personal collective comes from millennia of conduct on the world stage centering on first known civilizations and adjacent areas. We go back even further but still remain in the basic area.
We do not lie when we say who we are and where we come from.
The turc & tatar lie, and use lies as a national conduct.

The Heir of the land are the Hayr.

[Ak105]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This operation just shows that we have better training than the baboons. They cant even guard their land. Pathetic............

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

.... I have been praising our leadership when everyone else was spitting on it but this kind of recklessness is not excusable, ....

That's because you have been behind the curve.

Better late than never.

Same applies when observing corruption, incompetence, bad governance etc etc.

.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

The problem with the present scenario is that our men are being used as sitting ducks for target practice. The status quo is misleading. Sure we hold artsakh but look at the cost and the fact that baboonastan is getting richer and more powerful during this status quo. I do not see how we value our soldiers more then they value theirs..how can u send an unarmed chopper right into enemy hands like that? I have been praising our leadership when everyone else was spitting on it but this kind of recklessness is not excusable, the senseless loss of life is not tolerable, the lives of our people are not expendable! Heads need to roll for what happened here on both sides of the front line.

Haykakan jan, I'd rather look into this all as a part of a bigger picture.
There is this issue of open air over Artsakh and resuming cyvilian flights to Stepanakert. We have been ready to commence for a while, but azeris have been vehemently stating that they will shoot any cyvilian flight down.
I think that our leadership has been probing azeris for their real intentions and actions for a while. It could have been a cyvilian plane shot with many casualties instead of a military helicpter, in which case no retaliation would have any bearing short of a full scale war.
There had to be an incident and ensuing situation for this issue to either clear up to our needs or to come to a new reality that can give us a free hand in balancing or restraining azeris.
Now our military can and should shoot down any azeri plane near our borders.
It has to become an international issue and subject to negotiations in lew of casualties(in which, azeri side bears the responcibility coupled with their losses) and danger of escalation, for us to get azeris to commit to open air in conflict areas.
I tend to think that this kind of a scenario was at least considered. Especially after how our special forces resolved the issue of retrieving the bodies (just like as it looks as if azeris were prepared to shoot an aircraft over the border, whith their cameras ready).
We have to close that option of shooting cyvilian plane down for azeris. So far all negotiations with them have been fruitless.
Only options left are the incidents and ensuing reality.

[Chubs]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This operation just shows that we have better training than the baboons. They cant even guard their land. Pathetic............

Well, it was never on their land, thats the thing.

I agree, very incompetent on their part. It was 200 meters away, thats an estimate of course, you can easily lock down an area, from 200 meters away. Looks like they only recovered one body and what was left (identification material) of the others. Damn, I wonder what they took from the helicopter crash.


Perhaps a flight data recorder?

The problem with the present scenario is that our men are being used as sitting ducks for target practice. The status quo is misleading. Sure we hold artsakh but look at the cost and the fact that baboonastan is getting richer and more powerful during this status quo. I do not see how we value our soldiers more then they value theirs..how can u send an unarmed chopper right into enemy hands like that? I have been praising our leadership when everyone else was spitting on it but this kind of recklessness is not excusable, the senseless loss of life is not tolerable, the lives of our people are not expendable! Heads need to roll for what happened here on both sides of the front line.

While I agree what happened could have been avoided, and it was partially MoD's fault, lets not get confused here. No one needs to die for a bad flight path for a training exercise, someone should have their ass fired, but not killed.

Haykakan, welcome to trench warfare. Its the absolute worst way to fight, but how else would Armenians defend their homeland? This is how you construct defensive positions. Dig in, grab a rifle, and wait to get shot at.

There are no land gains, just as there were none in WWI.

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Haykakan jan, I'd rather look into this all as a part of a bigger picture.
There is this issue of open air over Artsakh and resuming cyvilian flights to Stepanakert. We have been ready to commence for a while, but azeris have been vehemently stating that they will shoot any cyvilian flight down.
I think that our leadership has been probing azeris for their real intentions and actions for a while. It could have been a cyvilian plane shot with many casualties instead of a military helicpter, in which case no retaliation would have any bearing short of a full scale war.
There had to be an incident and ensuing situation for this issue to either clear up to our needs or to come to a new reality that can give us a free hand in balancing or restraining azeris.
Now our military can and should shoot down any azeri plane near our borders.
It has to become an international issue and subject to negotiations in lew of casualties(in which, azeri side bears the responcibility coupled with their losses) and danger of escalation, for us to get azeris to commit to open air in conflict areas.
I tend to think that this kind of a scenario was at least considered. Especially after how our special forces resolved the issue of retrieving the bodies (just like as it looks as if azeris were prepared to shoot an aircraft over the border, whith their cameras ready).
We have to close that option of shooting cyvilian plane down for azeris. So far all negotiations with them have been fruitless.
Only options left are the incidents and ensuing reality.

I really hate being pain in the a-rse but your argument is flawed.

We are dealing battle hardened commanders and generals. Decisions are not made that way.

Send some of your best men and lets see what will happen. If they get shot and die we will know .... simply bizarre ..


The reality is these type of flights, close to the line of contact are “frequent” by both sides. They have been tolerated in the spirit of cease fire and not escalation of the aggression.

Of late the Azeri have been getting bolder and bolder, unpredictable, partly due to their acquired weaponry etc.

Despite our military leadership statements, our responses have not been above their threshold of pain so they carry on and take bigger risks .

It up to our military leadership to calibrate their response to the Azeri provocation to such a scale so they decide its not worth it.

I am afraid the ball is in our court. Simply responding three casualties to one of ours is not a valid equation to use.

.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I really hate being pain in the a-rse but your argument is flawed.

We are dealing battle hardened commanders and generals. Decisions are not made that way.

Send some of your best men and lets see what will happen. If they get shot and die we will know .... simply bizarre ..


The reality is these type of flights, close to the line of contact are “frequent” by both sides. They have been tolerated in the spirit of cease fire and not escalation of the aggression.

Of late the Azeri have been getting bolder and bolder, unpredictable, partly due to their acquired weaponry etc.

Despite our military leadership statements, our responses have not been above their threshold of pain so they carry on and take bigger risks .

It up to our military leadership to calibrate their response to the Azeri provocation to such a scale so they decide its not worth it.

I am afraid the ball is in our court. Simply responding three casualties to one of ours is not a valid equation to use.

.

If you'd look back at incidents in cold war times, or even modern times, between conflicting parties, it would not look bizzare.
Of thousands of killed snipers and special op and shot down equipment along the lines of conflicts, that were no more than extensions of diplomatic wars.
One of those quick flights over the border by US/Nato( supposedly training) was shot down near turkish border in Armenia in 50's.
There are maybe hundreds of cases like this.
Probing the enemy, even in danger of casualty, and ensuing diplomatic wars has been very common around the world.
Every flight path and plan in those kinds of areas is planned and approved by high command.