Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[ASALA2116]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I am going to ask you guys that "Է ն մարդիք, որ Պավլիկի գցած եղունգը չարժեն, թող բերանները չբացեն։".
Stop even discussing anything about Pavlik or the group of people with him.
Nobody here has earned any right to spray their "enlightenment" here.
If anyone wants to debate about political events or means, welcome.
But people, stop acting like bored housewifes around coffe table. Please...

You sound like a Hillary supporter. No one is defending the Government or any party. Stop assuming we are. Stop running your argument based on that.
Just because Pavlik fought in a war doesn't automatically give him the right to do as he pleases. He was not the only soldier on the ground and he will not be the last. Just because I have not fired a bullet towards enemy trenches does not mean I'm not entitled to talk. I have worked tirelessly in the Armenian Community and maybe I am not Pavlik but I am another person with different goals and views. As for your words in Armenian , I laughed at how immature that was. That's something you say when you are burning so bad. As for not earning any right to spray their enlightenment , well what's the point if this forum ? Is there just things we are not allowed to speak about. ?

[armnuke]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You sound like a Hillary supporter. No one is defending the Government or any party. Stop assuming we are. Stop running your argument based on that.
Just because Pavlik fought in a war doesn't automatically give him the right to do as he pleases. He was not the only soldier on the ground and he will not be the last. Just because I have not fired a bullet towards enemy trenches does not mean I'm not entitled to talk. I have worked tirelessly in the Armenian Community and maybe I am not Pavlik but I am another person with different goals and views. As for your words in Armenian , I laughed at how immature that was. That's something you say when you are burning so bad. As for not earning any right to spray their enlightenment , well what's the point if this forum ? Is there just things we are not allowed to speak about. ?

I've been telling him since yesterday. Just run through my responses and count how many times I told him. He doesn't want to take that into consideration because his argument is based on that point solely.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You sound like a Hillary supporter. No one is defending the Government or any party. Stop assuming we are. Stop running your argument based on that.
Just because Pavlik fought in a war doesn't automatically give him the right to do as he pleases. He was not the only soldier on the ground and he will not be the last. Just because I have not fired a bullet towards enemy trenches does not mean I'm not entitled to talk. I have worked tirelessly in the Armenian Community and maybe I am not Pavlik but I am another person with different goals and views. As for your words in Armenian , I laughed at how immature that was. That's something you say when you are burning so bad. As for not earning any right to spray their enlightenment , well what's the point if this forum ? Is there just things we are not allowed to speak about. ?

The enlightenment I talked about is not for everything, you are right, we need it for our selfs, but for only Pavliks case.
He may be a deplorable person individually. But my frustration is using him to characterize many thousands of people that took part in last july's events. Your characterization my friend matches exactly what our government would want to see. But on the contrary we should pull out every one case and poke government's eyes instead. That is the only way to have any effect over the government and any bearing of what comes next.
He could be worst guy In that events. But tens of thousands of supporters behind him and his group in less than 3 million population should make you not add water on government's mill, because that can actually bring about revolution or some kind of color nightmare.
Yes I am burning. Burning with frustration at how weak and divided our opinions are. At the sight of how after all the business in Bagramian 26 is going as usual.
Read fiew posts back what I said about those clan member's yo-yo ing in and out of government offices and shady businesses.
Posted yesterday, Surik Khachatutian's brother appointed as head of Yerevan's electric power plant. When asked if wasn't there any conflict of interest or correlation of payback to Surik's clan because of his removal? Official answer is "he was the head of Sunik's privetly owned power plant (his clan owns it), so he is qualified for this public post.
Isn't it abvious what he is in for? To rob it. A payment to Surik Khachaturian by our government.
New prime minister says something, washing the brains of nation, Serjik's government does the usual, dividing and devouring my nation's wealth and livelihood.
Has Electric Yerevan with it's civilized and moderate protests amounted to nothing like this? People see it right? So what is going to stop desperation and "saints with arms" becoming the only choice?
I am all open to be easily convinced that new prime minister and reforms will change something. But however I try, can't even lie to myself.
After all, I can do easily if one can bring even a single act of civilized, national and selfless act from any member of that 8-10 clans that controll everything in Armenia and poke my eye with it.
Acts like Tsarukians can never work. For me he is acting if whole nation is the beggars and he is the Robin Hood. Phewww.
Enlightenment is, when I look at problems straight in the eye. And anderstand it.
I appreciate your tireless efforts in Armenian communities.
But there is an important issue here. The divide between diaspora and Armenian population has two roots. One is the poor section which sees that diaspora always supports government (through that support in reality is about supporting our dream of statehood) and will not be a part of struggle for justice with locals.
The reach and ruler sector knows very well that with any involvement diaspora will inject democratic and moral values with societal knowledge and actually erode the corrupt hold and keeps them out.
Treatment to Arsine Khanjian and other diasporans specially in rallies is evidence. And the treatment to any repatriated diasporans that dares to protest is very very harsh.
So it is very important out here to appraise the events and figures in Armenia from the point of majority population, and particularly from protesting crowd pont. Otherwise we stay out.
Instead we discuss if an uprising is harmful to Armenia... Of course it is... Pavlik or a war hero may not be suitable for governance... Of course he may not.
But is this what the crowd standing in front of police line concerned with? Maybe not.
Maybe they are out there because of unending circle of corruption, worsening conditions and pressure to find survival elsewhere.
How can we be the more caring than people who live there and who's lives are directly tied to situation in Armenia.
I am utterly disappointed in Diaspora because I don't see even a sign of any diasporan organization or group studying corruption phenomenon in Armenia, developing strategies in changing it and trying to import it there.
Diaspora with it's national identity has to become the option and source of opposition support, not Soros organizations.
Instead all you see is self deception about every monkey game that is put out by rats there.
And please you can criticize any way but not disrespect me with Hillary supporter. Not that one
PS. I don't think that diaspora is powerless in helping to bring changes in Armenia?
Diaspora has got money, ties and international presence. But lags in realization that it's most important patriotic obligation is in uniting around to bring changes and improvements in Armenia.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

"PS. I don't think that diaspora is powerless in helping to bring changes in Armenia?
Diaspora has got money, ties and international presence. But lags in realization that it's most important patriotic obligation is in uniting around to bring changes and improvements in Armenia. "

This is a great example of why I agree with Hakob on many things. Having said this there is a problem with change being forced by the diaspora as it will inevitably be considered meddling (as it should be). I do not think that vilifying the government is going to get us anywhere. The people governing Armenia got there because of the power vacuum created after the collapse of the soviet union. These people are selfish as most people today are since we live in a narcissistic world. I do not think that our present government could do the right things in Armenia because it does not care about doing the right things for the country. Having said this we should not forget that when Armenia fell into the hands of the west (LTP) and was faced with certain doom, it was these greedy bastards (along with many freedom fighting Armenians) that made sure we did not surrender and brought about victory instead. I have mentioned this before that I have a problem with people calling for revolution without having a replacement strategy in place. Ok so we kick these guys out..now what? You know foreign powers are not going to sit on the sidelines. They already have a holes like Raffi ready and willing to take orders from London, Washington, Israel..wherever. I am not anti revolution, as a matter of fact I think the kind of change the world needs can only be brought about by revolution. The problem is that you should only pursue this route if you are very certain of the outcome it will bring. I see no party, no vision, no leader who I can point to and say there is our answer, there is the thing that I am willing to fight for, that is what we should do.. let alone anyone who can actually do it. A lot of people make a mistake in thinking things can not get any worst...but those people are always wrong. Nothing brings hope and nothing brings ruin like a revolution can.

[ASALA2116]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

"PS. I don't think that diaspora is powerless in helping to bring changes in Armenia?
Diaspora has got money, ties and international presence. But lags in realization that it's most important patriotic obligation is in uniting around to bring changes and improvements in Armenia. "

This is a great example of why I agree with Hakob on many things. Having said this there is a problem with change being forced by the diaspora as it will inevitably be considered meddling (as it should be). I do not think that vilifying the government is going to get us anywhere. The people governing Armenia got there because of the power vacuum created after the collapse of the soviet union. These people are selfish as most people today are since we live in a narcissistic world. I do not think that our present government could do the right things in Armenia because it does not care about doing the right things for the country. Having said this we should not forget that when Armenia fell into the hands of the west (LTP) and was faced with certain doom, it was these greedy bastards (along with many freedom fighting Armenians) that made sure we did not surrender and brought about victory instead. I have mentioned this before that I have a problem with people calling for revolution without having a replacement strategy in place. Ok so we kick these guys out..now what? You know foreign powers are not going to sit on the sidelines. They already have a holes like Raffi ready and willing to take orders from London, Washington, Israel..wherever. I am not anti revolution, as a matter of fact I think the kind of change the world needs can only be brought about by revolution. The problem is that you should only pursue this route if you are very certain of the outcome it will bring. I see no party, no vision, no leader who I can point to and say there is our answer, there is the thing that I am willing to fight for, that is what we should do.. let alone anyone who can actually do it. A lot of people make a mistake in thinking things can not get any worst...but those people are always wrong. Nothing brings hope and nothing brings ruin like a revolution can.

I agree with you except for the part were you agreed with Hakob. What his saying and what you just said contradict one another.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I agree with you except for the part were you agreed with Hakob. What his saying and what you just said contradict one another.

The sentence I quoted from Hakob is a statement I agree with. The focus of the diaspora should indeed be to help in improving Armenia. This can be done in many ways without political interference or revolution.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

What you guys are so afraid of is the revolution, I anderstand.
But what do you call a sucessful attempt of replacing a government that is working in reproducing itself and it's philosophy and power for long time, maybe for at least a couple generations more. While the conduct of that government is continuosely waisting your country to its knees, while a determined enemy is standing by to jump in at the right moment to finish your country off?
I said it and I will say again, the April elections should be the last test to convince us that this road will only lead to Armenia's
demise. I hope, only hope that I am wrong.
But after April, we are likely to have an absolute hegemonic one party sistem essentially. Where opposition is guaranteed the role of only a scarecrow to be laughed at. At this moment Serj has succeeded in dividing and nullifying any opposition.
Some have been given fat stakes to feed and play with only HHK rules. Like Dashnags, BHK and others. Some have been decapitated and leadeship is either in jail or outside of country. Only few loudest ones are left that public knows are financed by foreign interests and people knowingly will never follow. And government knows that if necessary it can just defeather them and throw on the side.
Also, government now has established a solid vote for pay and effective vote fraud sistem that, no near future opposition can overcome, guaranteed.
Heck, even if election is lost in a major city, HHK proved that results can be overturned in a few days because it has created also solidly working fake opposition sistem.
Now what will happen if the hope dies? Do you guys see how dangerous it is?
Some of you, like me just even a year ago, think that oligarkhs will at least protect their own interests there? But each one has so much money abroad that war can never be the end of their livelihood.
Game is played like this. Efforts are put so Army is strong and no war stops their lives. As long as there is juice to suck in or money that Armenia can borrow(one way or another it comes to their pockets and everyone knows their share).
But once the country is bankrapt and people unable to fight, the hello Maldives.
Who's going to blame whom if a war is lost?
Everything is set. Russia will never allow Armenia and it's base dissapear. Only Artsakh regions will be lost (for which agreement has been given long time ago) and that's it.
Isn't this the worse scenario?
Maybe this is totally wrong right? But I loose sleep over it.
How about if it is possible to happen? Shouldn't we worry about it? Am I crazy?
Even today's situation if Far Far away from what I hope to have there.
OK, how about if people, and I know a big and growing portion, if fed up hopeless and goes to the streets with arms so strong that oligarkhs jump their horses and leave?
In last July looked like a preview! It will be a disaster right?
We can think of this can happen to other nations like Arabs, Ukrainians etc, but are we guaranteed against it?
Best thing to do is to go towards it and force change by other, more positive and harmless ways right?
This government has to be replaced with more fair and clean government, that's for sure. This government is rotten and bad to the core.
I have been thinking about diaspora for some time. How about if diaspora seriously comes together and commits to change this government? Can it succeed? What can happen?
Look at the most loudest opponents in Yerevan? They are financed, its abvious. How about if diaspora finances not roads and hospitals but political force that can win an election?
How much is financed opposition cost?
I know that Helsinki watch pays around $200000 for the group in Armenia. Soros type foundations or agencies spend around $20-30000 for each to maybe 4-8 entities in Armenia. All together maybe $500000 a year comes to all the financed groups, but they keep shaking our government very often.
Our government is not too strong, rats never bind together that strong.
How much diaspora spends in Armenia every year?
Only Armenia fund collected 15 million this year. But altogether every year may be 2 times that is channeled thru diaspora organizations.
How much we spend for our lobbying groups for genocide recognition in Washington and elsewhere?
Open up AGBU yearly fundraising recaps and you will see millions donated or willed every year. How about others?
I estimate that diaspora handles $30-50 million budget for national programs.
What can be achieved if only 20%, or $5-6 million is directed at political opposition in Armenia?
Of course with solid progresdive democratic national platform.
I can picture creating genuine, strong and large opposition that can challenge HHK and succeed.
A large regional center like Gyumri has around 70-80 thousand voters. Majority do not fancy HHK. But no opposition has the power or resources to force monitored election where votes are bought and results forged.
A vote in Armenia costs 5000dram-$10. People take money because they are desperate and know their votes do not have bearing anyway.
How many votes can $100000 buy? 10000. A person paid to get up to the street and demand open count.
As soon as money show up, HHK will start dissolving with defections.
A core organization, controlled from diaspora that has no interest other than homeland well being.
I know for sure, millions in Armenia will happily jump for the trust they have on the ever beneficial diaspora.
But why all those years have diaspora been so fearfull and quiet and inactive? Because the old generation and psychology has not been changed yet.
Diaspora has not been awaken yet with the idea that Armenia's politics is it's duty and future to participate in.
Diaspora has not been thinking that it can unite and succeed around ideas other than genocide or preservation of national identity.
It has to be awaken up to realise that it has a holy duty and a right to be part of Armenian politics.
When we talk about how successfull is Israel, we don't talk how their diaspora is active and effective in israel's internal politics. Not only Israel affects it's diaspora but diaspora is actively present in Israel. If one acts without the other, it will be torn apart.
We have seeds that appeared in our diaspora. In the form of political protest groups or support groups for such and such political figure in Armenia.
It is necessary to talk, circulate and grow an ideology of Armenian politics participation and goals. If it is done enough and a fiew thousand gather all over the globe in a single political entity for that reason, this entity may create a mother party in Armenia big and strong enough in bringing real change.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Can you believe if I say that what now is the ministry of diaspora, or was. Is exactly doing a job of keeping diaspora out of Armenia. Look back at the history of conduct. Turks could never dream of such a good job of keeping our diaspora separate and isolated from homeland like this ministry has done.
You know what is also funny?
Every time at the Armenian telethon besides members of telethon council only Armenian officials keep repeating that "everybody can see, every last penny or luma goes to it's purpose. Nothing is lost (stolen) or waisted".
I kept thinking "what a dum ass people we have that don't even trust this telethon"?
But lately I realised that inseminating the thought of stollen money, corruption, at the telethon and then proving othewise with flashy videos of improvents done by diaspora's own money, keeps diasporan donor population happy and dormant thinking that is all the job to be done by them, as the telethon is used to cover up and stop from digging into Armenia's own financial details.
This telethone actually helps stop diaspora thinking any farther.,

[Monte]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

What happened to our Military Balance forum ??? Politics is a long and complicated subject. The only thing I would like to add on that subject is that Armenia is not utilizing its diaspora's potential. We need to mimic what the Jewish Diaspora and Israel do for each other.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Hakob jan your arguments are kind of falling apart. You base our worst case scenario on Russia bailing us out. You forget that NATO is mounting USA troops on her direct border now. Chances are Russia will have bigger problems to contend with and we will be left on our own. You also assume the diaspora will do what is in Armenia's interest if it takes political control of her, this also is a assumption with not much bases in facts. For many decades our mighty diaspora has not been able to get USA to utter the G word yet they are going to take over a country with huge problems and bring it to glory...sounds like fantasy to me. Hell most diasporan Armenians I have talked to do not even believe in government of any kind. You guys are doing us a huge disservice by constantly comparing us to jews. We are not jews, and we do not want to be like them. We do not have as many people as they do, we do not have anywhere near their wealth and political capital...this is such a erroneous comparison that I cannot believe it is still being made. No I do not have all the answers but it is very obvious that neither do you nor anyone else here. A revolution is not something to take lightly, you cant just wing it. Yes we need to do something different but it needs to be well planned and backed if it is to succeed because failure is not an option.