Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

[jgk3]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Resistance to losing Armenia to Turkey always seem to have the loudest-voice. I find it is better to be quiet and intelligent than loud and ignorant.

yes indeed.

p.s. I went ahead and described what "ultra nationalist" is.

[jgk3]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

As for "learning from history".... Germany and Japan suffered the greatest defeats of the 20th century and they are now both economic,democratic and military powerhouses. Israel is smaller than Armenia proper and yet more powerful.

Germany's economy and social integrity today is as xxxxty as ever, and Japan is facing integration into a Chinese lead power either by means of economic pressure or chaotic military destruction.

Israel is not smaller than Armenia, but it is hated by many more people and faces isolation due to its belligerence

Karabakh doesn't give us power. Economy, integration, and military technology to follow will.

Artsakh gives us a workable flood gate towards the Turkish yoke. Personally I'm more drawn to living in Artsakh or the occupied lands themselves than in Armenia proper, even though I've never visited either.

Lets learn from this history of yours Anatolian, so we can stop writing new chapters already and die out.

[truAnatolian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Israel:
total: 20,770 sq km
land: 20,330 sq km
water: 440 sq km

Armenia:
total: 29,743 sq km (+ Artsakh whatever it is)
land: 28,454 sq km
water: 1,289 sq km

If you were referring to population, then we are on different pages. Im talking about land.

Germany is the economic power house of europe. Japan is also an economic powerhouse. Germany may be in recession but so is half of the world including Russia. Frankly, the Japanese live a far better quality of life than the chinese. So are talking about prosperity and quality of life and economic/military power or are we talking about "Greater Armenia" and "the turkish yoke" because if you guys are about imperialism then we're definatley on different pages.

[jgk3]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

if by imperialism you mean survival as a race, then yeah.

[UrMistake]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

its just stupid what u said Anatolian realy give it some sec....every countre must be free not integrated in some others cant u lern from history only u will save ur self not russia or persia and defently not usa u are for ur self biger,u are then bether for u,its like u say yeah lets give land to them even wene its not there's just because they got petrodolas and we can hope they invest in our lil vilage!!!people have died so u can say openly ur opinion but i cant let u sale my fredom for ur grater picture if im not fit in that picture thene somthing wrong.then its not me but the grater powers that manipulate me and say that im not worth to have my countre free i can submit my self as servant to big companes and say yes to NIKE in armenia or other for sace of prosperty and investment.u see its a think line global powers dont care about azeri oil more that them selfs if they have option they will spit to all of as.u are in major confuse eat lesser bergers in usa it cant bring damage to ur brains as we can see.

[skhara]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Personally to me, the security of Artsakh is infinitely more important then all those drilled genocide obsessed Armenians.

This is not something I ever wanted to bring up, perhaps it is only between me and my uncle or perhaps it is felt by other western armenians as well but the dashnaks may have provoked the genocide. They created alot of problems for the anatolian armenian population as they (the dashnaks) originated in Russian armenia as opposed to Turkish armenia.

Anyways, that is history and I love armenians no matter their political affiliation or where they originated.

As for "learning from history".... Germany and Japan suffered the greatest defeats of the 20th century and they are now both economic,democratic and military powerhouses. Israel is smaller than Armenia proper and yet more powerful.

Strength of a nation doesn't come from how much land it possesses anymore it comes from how important you are to other countries. This is the age of globalization. Ceding karabakh (i hate the word cede but it will have to do) will allow us, if its not already too late, integration into major oil pipelines of great interest to other countries. Then armenia will have a real and tangible bargaining chip and power. Karabakh doesn't give us power. Economy, integration, and military technology to follow will.

Please explain to me why Americas allies do so well, while Russia's allies do poorly? Why do countries who hate eachother (i.e croatia,bosnia,serbia or Syria and Turkey) still have open borders and get along while Armenia and its neighbours don't......Its because we have no economy. We don't matter. Lets face it $$ makes the world go round and if you can't beat em' join em! Live to fight another day. Lets integrate and make peace with our neighbours, their minorities will keep them on edge for us. Our problem is that we are too vocal. If we don't like your country, we'll tell you. And though though such straight forwardness and honesty is a virtue, it doesn't work in this world. Give em what they want, our diasporan dollars will go alot farther, investment will pour in and we will gain true power and then we can strike when the time is right.

I don't see it as "selling-out" armenia. A countries military strength is directly correlated to its economic strength, whether that means buying arms or exerting influence. We must look long-term.

Free and Prosperous Armenia forever!

I found your post utterly disgusting. Not only is it stupid in geostrategic terms, it would also be a moral betrayal of 100,000 of the best and the bravest Armenians who fought and died to liberate just a small piece of Armenian land.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I think the genocide happened because there were Armenians like you, who are ready to bow and be slaves than to stand up proud and fight. Look at our history, every time we stood as one kingdom we were mighty and our neighbors respected us, but when we did what you suggested our people were slaughtered deported.

What do you think is going to happen after we give up Artsakh, do you really think the Turks, who have killed more than 2 milj of our ancestors, will leave us alone. No after that they'll demand something else and after ten years they'll go to war against a weakened Hayastan.

And you want us to betray our brothers and sisters in Artsakh, lead them to a slaughter. Because that's what is going to happen an other genocide against our people. That is what you are saying we should lead them to the slaughter house. But I'm sorry this is not going to happen because 99.9% of Hayastancic don't want to betray their brothers and sister in Artsakh. And during the war most of the fighter were volunteers from Hayastan. And I can tell you when you visit Hayastan and you tell your ideas, I'll pray to god you'll leave the country alive. Because we don't like judases in our land.

[gmd]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This is not something I ever wanted to bring up, perhaps it is only between me and my uncle or perhaps it is felt by other western armenians as well but the dashnaks may have provoked the genocide. They created alot of problems for the anatolian armenian population as they (the dashnaks) originated in Russian armenia as opposed to Turkish armenia.

Anyways, that is history and I love armenians no matter their political affiliation or where they originated.

As for "learning from history".... Germany and Japan suffered the greatest defeats of the 20th century and they are now both economic,democratic and military powerhouses. Israel is smaller than Armenia proper and yet more powerful.

Strength of a nation doesn't come from how much land it possesses anymore it comes from how important you are to other countries. This is the age of globalization. Ceding karabakh (i hate the word cede but it will have to do) will allow us, if its not already too late, integration into major oil pipelines of great interest to other countries. Then armenia will have a real and tangible bargaining chip and power. Karabakh doesn't give us power. Economy, integration, and military technology to follow will.

Please explain to me why Americas allies do so well, while Russia's allies do poorly? Why do countries who hate eachother (i.e croatia,bosnia,serbia or Syria and Turkey) still have open borders and get along while Armenia and its neighbours don't......Its because we have no economy. We don't matter. Lets face it $$ makes the world go round and if you can't beat em' join em! Live to fight another day. Lets integrate and make peace with our neighbours, their minorities will keep them on edge for us. Our problem is that we are too vocal. If we don't like your country, we'll tell you. And though though such straight forwardness and honesty is a virtue, it doesn't work in this world. Give em what they want, our diasporan dollars will go alot farther, investment will pour in and we will gain true power and then we can strike when the time is right.

I don't see it as "selling-out" armenia. A countries military strength is directly correlated to its economic strength, whether that means buying arms or exerting influence. We must look long-term.

Free and Prosperous Armenia forever!

Everyone has an opinion. The problem with yours is that it is based on flawed logic. Ceding territory will not gain peace for Armenia.

Israel is a unique case due to support from the US. If that support diminishes then Israel is in trouble.
Look forward and consider the possibility that the US will turn more inwards out of necessity and the aid it provides to its allies will diminish in the future.

Armenia is Russia's ally out of necessity and if it were not for the Russians then the Turks would have finished us off by now.

Comments like this made by you make me question if you are really Armenian.
I am all for a discussion but it sounds like you either don't care for Armenia's survival, have no real understanding of the danger posed by Armenia's turkic neighbors, or just live in lala land.

[truAnatolian]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

This is a mentality that Vartan Oskanian discussed when he came to toronto, I also beleive he gave similiar speaches in LA as well. I have searched for the exact scrpt but was unable to find it. I know its is out there because I read it several times but anyways he basically says its time for an attitude change, that we must not always feel like we are under attack.


I love you guys and your patriotism, but honestly its time to admit that we're not in a position to be making demands. We have let this slide for now and re-earn a position of strength. The best way to do that is to make peace. If we give up karbakh, the turkish army is not going to storm in the second after!

You make it sound like I'm happy to say these things, but it takes a man to admit a weakness. I want the exact same thing you do, I just envision a different way of getting there.

[gmd]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Artsak is crtical to protecting Armenia. If you study some maps of the region you will see how narrow Syunik is in some places. In any conflict, especially without Russian support, the area could be over-run by a concerted attack from Nakichevan and Azeri.
The reason some of us feel like we are under attack is because there is a long history of Armenian's being under attack and nothing has changed in recent times.