Russian domination of Armenia.

[SoyElTurco]

These issues are extremely complex. Everything ties into one another. Russia dominates Armenia because of the closed border between Armenia and Turkey.

Armenia forces isolation upon itself simply because of the Nagorno-Karabakh issue and the Genocide Issue.

It works like this:

Back in the early nineties, newly independent fledgling states of Azerbaijan and Armenia go all out for a small tract of land. As a result of Armenian dominance, Turkey - Armenia's longtime enemy capitalizes by forming solidarity with Azerbaijan - it closes the border. Turkey's vested interest the muting of the genocide issue, and also, its simple concern for its Turkish speaking azeri brothers (the latter point here is contestable, but i believe it).

This creates a bitter situation for Armenia: Give up Nagorno-Karabakh and the genocide issue or give itself up to the hands of the Russians. It chose the latter.

Now Russia has bought the Armenian generals and politicians. For short term survival, Armenia has sold/gave away all of its economic assets (telecomunications and energy) to the Russians - ensuring permanent Russian monopoloziation of Armenia's economy.

Armenian politicians have not been able to make any advances in freeing themselves from Russia. They downgraded the Armenian-Iranian pipeline to half its diameter to eliminate its potential to export iranian natural gas to Ukraine - Russia ensured it cannot be competed against.

Armenia's democracy is gone. Elections are rigged (Russians make sure that they are). What is Armenia going to do? All the people in power are destroying the country. But the true root cause of this horrendous situation is Armenia's tenacity not to let Nagorno-Karabakh fall into the hands of the Azeris and not to let the the genocide issue go muted.

If Nagorno-Karabakh were given up, Turkey would have no legitimate reason to keep the border closed.

Should the Nagorno-Karabakh be ceded to Azerbaijan? If so, is that enough to reopen to border between Turkey and Armenia - would armenia have to mute the genocide issue?

Whatever the course of events, one thing is certain: Once the border is open, Russian domination will begin its ending.

So what do you people think should be done to end Russian domination over Armenia?

[jgk3]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

Keep the lesser of the two evils (living under a Russian monopoly) and save our strength for another day. In the meantime, we will watch everyone like a hawk and do good for ourselves wherever and whenever we could.

[RM_sako]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

Tu eres un puto.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

I'd rather be a pawn of Moscow than a slave to Ankara...

So pretty much what you're saying is "give up Genocide recognition and Artsakh and Turkey and Armenia can be friends". These are Turkish lies. It doesn't matter what Armenia does or doesn't do, Turks are the eternal enemies of Armenia and vice-a-versa. This has shown to be true throughout history. Although the Russians do exert an amount of control of Armenia, it's not to the extent that you claim. Russo-Armenian relations benefit both countries; Russia can stave off Western influence and Armenia is virtually guaranteed protection against a Turkish attack (God-forbid). Armenia has to be more concrete in perserving its ideal of a United Armenia, not less so as this is how Armenia will survive.

Besides this, Russia provides much better opportunites for military and commercial trade than Turkey would. The benefits are tenfold that what could be offered fom Turkey.

[TomServo]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

If Nagorno-Karabakh were given up, Turkey would have no legitimate reason to keep the border closed.

That's actually just been a cover. It's genocide recognition that Turkey wants dropped, but that's not a legitimate reason to close the border (neither is the Karabakh conflict, actually).

Armenia might be "dominated" by Russia, but Turkey is also dominated by NATO. And since I'm too lazy to find your thread about birth rates, you should be asking Turks the same question?

[crusader1492]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

This article, by Raffi Hovanessian, is pertenent to the subject. Not only does he take the stance of standing up to Turkey, but he also Russia.

Armenia will no longer play the victim 17.10.2008 16:49 GMT+04:00
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The recent race of strategic realignments reflects a real crisis in the world order and risks a dangerous recurrence of history. Suffice the testimony of nearly all global and regional actors, which have quickly shifted their gears and ushered in a new cycle of reassessment of interests and, to that end, a diversification of policy priorities and political partnerships, Raffi K. Hovannisian, Armenia’s first minister of foreign affairs, founder of the Armenian Center for National and International Studies and representative of the opposition Heritage Party in Parliament, said in a statement obtained by PanARMENIAN.Net.

“It matters little whether this geopolitical scramble was directly triggered by the Russian-Georgian conflagration and the derivative collapse of standing paradigms for the Caucasus, or whether it crowned latently simmering scenarios in the halls of international power. The fact is that the great game—for strategic resources, control over communications and routes of transit, and long-term leverage—is on again with renewed vigor, self-serving partisanship, and duplicitous entanglement.

One of the signals of this unbrave new world is the apparent reciprocal rediscovery of Russia and Turkey. Whatever its motivations and manifestations, Turkey’s play behind the back of its transatlantic bulwark and Russia’s dealings at the expense of its “strategic ally” raise the specter of history’s return, recalling the days more than 85 years ago when Bolshevik Russia and Nationalist Turkey, not contenting themselves with the legacy of the great Genocide and National Dispossession of 1915, partitioned the Armenian homeland in Molotov-Ribbentrop fashion and to its fatal future detriment.

Mountainous Karabagh, or Artsakh in Armenian, was one of the territorial victims of this 1921 plot of the pariahs, as it was placed under Soviet Azerbaijani suzerainty together with Nakhichevan. The latter province of the historical Armenian patrimony was subsequently cleansed of its Armenian plurality and even of its Armenian cultural heritage, the most contemporary evidence of which was the Azerbaijani Republic’s (a Council of Europe member-state) total, Taliban-style annihilation in December 2005 of the medieval cemetery and thousands of Armenian cross-stones at Jugha.

Mountainous Karabagh, by way of exception, was able to turn the tide on a past of genocide, dispossession, occupation and partition, as it defended its identity, integrity, and territory against foreign aggression and in 1991 declared its liberty, decolonization, and sovereignty—long before Kosovo, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia became current—in compliance with the Montevideo standards of conventional international law and with the controlling domestic legislation of the Soviet Union.

Subsequent international practice on the recognition of Kosovo, and later of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, demonstrates that in this world there exists no real rule of law—applied evenly across the board—but rather the rule of vital interests that are conveniently couched under the selectively-interpreted guise of international legal principles of choice and of exclusivist distinctions of fact which, in fact, make no difference.

It’s time to face the farce.

That goes for Moscow and Ankara too. Judging from the contemporary pronouncements of their high-level officials, they still don’t get it. And if they are driven by need for a strategic new compact, then at least their partners on the world stage should reshift their gears and calculate their policy alternatives accordingly. Iran, the United States and its European allies might find here an objective intersection of their concerns.

Russia and Turkey must never again find unity of purpose at the expense of Armenia and the Armenian people. The track record of genocide, exile, death camps and gulags is enough for all of history.

These two important countries, as partners both real and potential, must respect the Armenian nation’s tragic history, its sovereign integrity and modern regional role, and Mountainous Karabagh’s lawfully-gained freedom and independence.

Football diplomacy is fine, but Turkey can assume the desired new level of global leadership and local legitimacy only by dealing with Armenia from a “platform” of good faith and reconciliation through truth; lifting its illegal blockade of the Republic and opening the frontier which it unilaterally closed, instead of using it as a bargaining tool; establishing diplomatic relations without preconditions and working through that relationship to build mutual confidence and give resolution to the many watershed issues dividing the two neighbors; accepting and atoning, in the brilliant example of postwar Germany, for the first genocide of the 20th century and the national dispossession that attended it; committing to rebuild, restore, and then celebrate the Armenian national heritage from Mt. Ararat and the medieval capital city of Ani to the vast array of churches, monasteries, schools, academies, fortresses, and other cultural treasures of the ancestral Armenian homelands; initiating and bringing to fruition a comprehensive program to guarantee the right of secure voluntary return for the progeny and descendants of the dispossessed to their places and properties of provenance; providing full civil, human, and religious rights to the Armenian community of Turkey, including completely doing away with the infamous Article 301 which has served for so long as an instrument of fear, suppression, and even death with regard to those courageous citizens of good conscience who dare to proclaim the historical fact of genocide; and finally exercising greater circumspection in voicing incongruous and unfounded allegations of “occupation” in the context of Mountainous Karabagh’s David-and-Goliath struggle for life and justice, lest someone remind it about more appropriate and more proximate applications of that term.

As for Russia, true strategic allies consult honestly with each other and coordinate their policies pursuant to their common interests; they do not address one another by negotiating adverse protocols with third parties at each other’s back, they do not posture against each other in public or in private, and they do not try to intimidate, arm-twist, or otherwise pressure each other via the press clubs and newspapers of the world. Russia as well must deal with Armenia in good faith, recognizing the full depth and breadth of its national sovereignty and the horizontal nature of their post-Soviet rapport, its right to seek and realize a balanced, robust, and integral foreign policy, as well as the non-negotiability - for any reason, including the sourcing and supervision of Azerbaijani oil - of Mountainous Karabagh’s liberty, security, and self-determination.

Official Yerevan, of course, must also step up to undertake its share of responsibility for creating a region of peace and shared stability, mutual respect and open borders, domestic democracy and international cooperation. An ancient civilization with a new state, Armenia’s national interests in the new era can best be served by achieving in short order a republic run by the rule of law and due process, an abiding respect for fundamental freedoms, good governance, and fair elections. These, sadly, have not been the case to date.

Armenia requires the real deal, and forthwith. But history as witness, it can and will no longer play the fool…or the victim,” the statement says.

[jgk3]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

that's a nice article crusader the prospect of Russia and Turkey someday becoming too buddyish is a scary thing, but I'm not sure exactly how we would be able to effectively stand up to it if it ever occured again. The Caucasus hasn't become any less of a strange place after what happened to Georgia recently and Armenia doesn't really have the power to shove any of its neighbours around. It does have the ability to defend itself, but it's tricky to know which fronts to do it on exactly when you don't know how much your allies truly love you. For the time being though, it still seems that Russia is interested in protecting Armenia from further concessions to its neighbours.

[Armenian]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

This article, by Raffi Hovanessian, is pertenent to the subject. Not only does he take the stance of standing up to Turkey, but he also Russia.

Have you been following Raffi's "political" career? I would not quote anything from that fat piece of shit if I were you. His rhetoric regarding Turkey sounds awfully shallow and disingenuous in light of some of his actions in the not to distant past. Also, stand up to Russia?!?!?! Is he xxxxing kidding? What planet has he been living on!? Anyway, if God forbid Russia and Turkey unite, there is nothing any of us can do to stop whatever it is that they may want to get done in the region. It's that simple. Instead of making foolish statements like we need to oppose to Russia, all Armenians should be desperately trying to engage Russia by all means and measures. Is it happening? The answer is, no. So called Armenian "politicians" like Raffi (and God knows we have many) make me wish we simply handed the house keys to Moscow and just entered their Federation to save all of us a lot of sleepless nights and heartache...

[SoyElTurco]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

1 - Anyway, if God forbid Russia and Turkey unite, there is nothing any of us can do to stop whatever it is that they may want to get done in the region. It's that simple.

2- So called Armenian "politicians" like Raffi (and God knows we have many) make me wish we simply handed the house keys to Moscow and just entered their Federation to save all of us a lot of sleepless nights and heartache...

1 - Thats true. Armenia is in the situation it is right now because it cannot oppose turkey or russia. If they oppose Russia, who will stop Azerbaijan from crushing armenia? (Azerbaijan has twice the population, 3x the economy, 4x the military budget. A blockade from Turkey and a Russian boycott of Armenia will effectively render Armenia's erasure in the event of an all out war with Azerbaijan.
In reality, Armenia is in a really tough position. It picks subordination to Russia as a lesser of two evils.

2- Would you really be okay with that?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

1 - Thats true. Armenia is in the situation it is right now because it cannot oppose turkey or russia. If they oppose Russia, who will stop Azerbaijan from crushing armenia? (Azerbaijan has twice the population, 3x the economy, 4x the military budget. A blockade from Turkey and a Russian boycott of Armenia will effectively render Armenia's erasure in the event of an all out war with Azerbaijan.
In reality, Armenia is in a really tough position. It picks subordination to Russia as a lesser of two evils.

2- Would you really be okay with that?

hahaha oh this guy is a clown, do you think that it's Russia who's keeping the azeris from destroying Armenia. hahaha this guy is a real clown