Russian domination of Armenia.

[TomServo]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

I disagree. The modern British (20th Century islanders) have been painfully liberal and their society has been very pluralistic. Don't forget that the term "British" is not a term suggesting ethnicity, it's essentially a political term meaning a union of Scots, English, Welsh and perhaps the Irish, in some sense. What you are referring to is their "contemptuous" upper class, their leftover elite. British liberalism, pluralism and their ability to absorb other ethnicities has been one of their greatest strengths, something that has kept them from falling into the dark ages after they lost their empire as a result of the first and second world wars. Nonetheless, as with any nationality, even ours, there will always be a class of citizens in a nation that will look down on all others. It's human.

Yeah, but what about զանգակ-the-կատու? He was interested in Armenia and its history, culture, and architecture, but what did he think of most Armenians? What did he think about most of our forumers?

I get the sarcasm, but try to see if you can look at what Lawrence said from a pre-Genocide perspective, when Armenians, from Constantinople to Tbilisi to Baku, were very prominently represented in politics and trade.

Yes. The Dadians were a wealthy and powerful family (I remember jgk3 saying he is a descendant of one). They even married into royalty. Dadian women married Romanov/Windsor princes.

Armenian traders were also prominent in India, and had much better relations with them than the British.

[TomServo]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

From Wikipedia:

According to some sources, Basayev moved on to Azerbaijan, where he aided Azerbaijani forces in their unsuccessful war against Karabakhi-Armenian fighters in the enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh. He was said to having led a battalion-strength Chechen contingent. According to Azeri Colonel Azer Rustamov, in 1992, "hundreds of Chechen volunteers rendered us invaluable help in these battles led by Shamil Basayev and Salman Raduyev". Basayev was said to be one of the last fighters to leave Shusha (see Capture of Shusha). Basayev later said during his career, he and his battalion had only lost once, and that defeat came in Karabakh in fighting against the "Dashnak battalion". He later said he pulled his mujahideen out of the conflict when the war seemed to be more for nationalism than for jihad. During the conflict, Basayev was first introduced to the pan-Islamic revolutionary Amir Ibn Khattab.[9]

[crusader1492]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

Like Ara Baliozian, զանգակ-the-կատու hated everything equally. As an individual, he was anti-social and always confrontational. With that said, I don't think you can extrpolate his xxxxty attitude and generalize it to the British...that would be tantamount to generalizing Armenian attitudes along the lines of Ara B's dark mind.

[Armenian]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

Yeah, but what about զանգակ-the-կատու? He was interested in Armenia and its history, culture, and architecture, but what did he think of most Armenians? What did he think about most of our forumers?

He was just an annoying personality that thought we Armenians owe him a lifetime of gratitude for his Virtual Ani website. You are talking about a spoiled individual, I am talking about a nation. Nevertheless, I have to say that share his and others' (Ara Baliozian's) not too flattering opinion of us Armenians, although from a drastically different perspective. You have also been at the receiving end of my disdain - for valid reasons

Yes. The Dadians were a wealthy and powerful family (I remember jgk3 saying he is a descendant of one). They even married into royalty. Dadian women married Romanov/Windsor princes. Armenian traders were also prominent in India, and had much better relations with them than the British

The Dadians were simply one of the many-many prominant Armenian families of Eurasia. Had we Armenians gotten our political act together, had there not been a Bolshevik revolution at the time, we could have easily carved a large chunk out of the dying Ottoman Empire. Today we could have been a major nation in the region, politically and economically. As a result of our people's political immaturity and the Bolshevik revolution, however, what happened was that our nation was utterly decimated in body and spirit. Armenians today are for the most part decedents of peasants.

[gmd]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

The Dadians were simply one of the many-many prominant Armenian families of Eurasia. Had we Armenians gotten our political act together, had there not been a Bolshevik revolution at the time, we could have easily carved a large chunk out of the dying Ottoman Empire. Today we could have been a major nation in the region, politically and economically. As a result of our people's political immaturity and the Bolshevik revolution, however, what happened was that our nation was utterly decimated in body and spirit. Armenians today are for the most part decedents of peasants.

Who was politically immature in this case? The very Armenians with power and influence? I am not sure I understand. How did they have sufficient maturity in emassing personal power and prestige but were unable to leverage this for survival on and individual basis? Provided that most of us are decendents of peasents.
I question this because I have always wondered if there was the same level of unity and purpose prior to 1915 as we saw in the Artsak War.

[jgk3]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

The Turks turned their back on the Armenian elite who had been serving them in their empire too. All that power and prestige could not stop it. Many of our elite was utterly complacent to the Turks and they were still completely disenfranchised of their high positions and estates, and that's only if they got off lucky.

I think our elite could've had more foresight than that, but they might've gotten too carried away with the endless exemptions from taxes and duties they were awarded with by the Ottomans. They focused in what they did best, business, and added immeasurably to Ottoman infrastructure.

[Armenian]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

Who was politically immature in this case? The very Armenians with power and influence? I am not sure I understand.

I meant the Armenian nation as a whole. Unlike other nations, we Armenians did not adhere to a pan-national ideology. The Armenian revolutionary movement that began in the late 18th century had only a small following amongst our intellectuals and the peasantry and virtually none amongst our wealthy. The vast majority of Armenians in Eurasia, the wealthy and poor alike, seemed very complacent with their status quo. Even in the occupied territories of Western Armenia the average Turkish speaking Armenian townsfolk could careless about "liberation" of a concept called - Armenia. The situation was so bad that Dashnak and Hnchak revolutionaries had to threaten wealthy/prominant Armenians in the Ottoman Empire into giving them support. Moreover, the number of actual Armenian fighters in the field were always tiny and the quality, mediocre. While the Russian Empire was giving Armenia military/political support the small number of Armenian revolutionaries managed to maintain their stance but when the Bolshevik revolution forced the Russians out of the Caucasus it essentially became a free-for-all for Turks...

How did they have sufficient maturity in emassing personal power and prestige but were unable to leverage this for survival on and individual basis? Provided that most of us are decendents of peasents. I question this because I have always wondered if there was the same level of unity and purpose prior to 1915 as we saw in the Artsak War.

Many of our wealthy/prominant families at the time, especially those in places like Tbilisi and Constantinople, were not of peasant stock. Many of the prominant Armenian families at the time were scions of medieval nobility. These families were all more-or-less decimated as a result of what occurred in 1915. Those in Russia and Europe were assimilated into oblivion, those in the Ottoman Empire were either killed, converted to Islam or exiled. Population wise, what we Armenians are left with today are Caucasian Armenians, most of whom were peasants and decedents of the Genocide survivors, most of whom were tradesmen from Western Armenia and Kilikia. Your question regarding Artskah: The kind of unity that we expressed in Artsakh was perhaps never seen in Armenian history. The Armenian nation at the time worked as a well oiled machine to save the land in question from destruction. The results of that unique unity are now obvious. In my opinion, the ironic part is, had it not been for the Armenian Genocide this pan-national unity we expressed during the Artsakh war would not have materialized.

[gmd]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

Thanks for the response Armenian. I did not intend to divert the thread off topic but I have often wondered about the level of national unity among Armenians of the Ottomon empire.

[ARGENTINA]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

He was just an annoying personality that thought we Armenians owe him a lifetime of gratitude for his Virtual Ani website. You are talking about a spoiled individual, I am talking about a nation. Nevertheless, I have to say that share his and others' (Ara Baliozian's) not too flattering opinion of us Armenians, although from a drastically different perspective. You have also been at the receiving end of my disdain - for valid reasons



The Dadians were simply one of the many-many prominant Armenian families of Eurasia. Had we Armenians gotten our political act together, had there not been a Bolshevik revolution at the time, we could have easily carved a large chunk out of the dying Ottoman Empire. Today we could have been a major nation in the region, politically and economically. As a result of our people's political immaturity and the Bolshevik revolution, however, what happened was that our nation was utterly decimated in body and spirit. Armenians today are for the most part decedents of peasants.

finally a good and prominant statement ,you are getting better as far as I can trace your analytic evalualions

[jgk3]

Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

and you are sounding more and more familiar ,Argentina.