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Russian domination of Armenia.

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  • #31
    Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

    American grip is also weakening in Azerbaijan. the last paragraph of the article might be of some interest.

    Crunch Time in the Caucasus: Fast-lane geopolitics may prompt reversal of allegiances in the region


    By Aris Ghazinyan
    ArmeniaNow reporter
    Published: 17 October, 2008

    Political processes in the Caucasus never developed so fast in the last decade. And in this case we deal not with some frozen or sluggish processes but with a fundamental change of the layout of regional forces and priorities. Against the background of new geopolitical realities, even such serious issues as a Karabakh settlement, or the presidential election in Azerbaijan are engulfed in the whirlpool of fresher concepts of regional repartition.

    Still at the beginning of summer few could expect that a visit to Baku of such a serious political player as US Vice-President xxxx Cheney could have such a lamentable result. Azerbaijani leader Ilham Aliyev did not even find it necessary to personally meet the high-ranking guest at the airport. Cheney was not even received at the level of Azerbaijan’s prime minister.

    So, he first headed for a meeting with BP-Azerbaijan Company President Bill Schreder and top managers of the Azerbaijani affiliate of Chevron and then visited the United States embassy in Baku and talked with Ambassador Ann Dersy. Cheney got to the Azerbaijani president’s residence only closer to the evening. He was so vexed that he even refused to take part in a dinner in his honor and left Baku for Tbilisi.

    It seems particularly strange given Cheney’s role in establishing political relations between the United States and Azerbaijan as Defense Secretary in the George Bush Senior’s administration. In November 1998 when Ilham Aliyev paid a visit to the US as first vice-president of the State Oil Company of the Azerbaijani Republic, Cheney was one of the organizers of an official reception in his honor at the Foundation of American-Azerbaijani Partnership and the Institute of Central Asia and the Caucasus.

    The then US defense secretary said in his speech that the US Government must take decisive steps to repeal Section 907 of the Freedom Support Act that restricted certain types of direct U.S. aid to the government of Azerbaijan until the latter lifted its blockades of Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh. “Of course, some neighbors in the region would not want such a development,” said Cheney implying Armenia. “Moreover, they would not want to see an independent and strong Azerbaijan.”

    It is no wonder that the decision of George W. Bush named Cheney as his vice-presidential running mate caused indignation in the Armenian Diaspora in the United States. Michael Mahdesian, a Diaspora-Armenian leader said: “Armenians throughout the country – Republicans or Democrats – are very worried. In all posts that xxxx Cheney has occupied he not only served the interests of big oil business, but also aggressively advanced Azerbaijani interests to the detriment of the interests of Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh.”

    Cheney has always opposed the proposals of the Armenian lobby. Thus, in 1985 and 1987 he voted against the recognition of the fact of the Genocide of Armenians. Becoming defense secretary Cheney promoted large-scale deliveries of military hardware to Turkey. While in the post of head of Halliburton, the current vice-president made much to achieve the repeal of Section 907 [against Azerbaijan]. For his efforts, as the Armenian community in the United States noticed, Cheney was rewarded with a “Prize for Supporting Freedom” by the American-Azerbaijani Chamber of Commerce in 1997. Nevertheless, his most recent visit to Baku became a failed visit. All this shows that realities are indeed changing in the region.

    Cheney told Aliyev that the United States would firmly support their allies in the region and were going to further push for a Trans-Caspian gas pipeline bypassing Russia. However, Aliyev made it clear that while he values relations with Washington, he was not going to betray Moscow. In fact, it meant that under current conditions Baku decided to assume a wait-and-see position and not press ahead with the Nabucco project, a pipeline planned for pumping natural gas to Europe.

    Aliyev had a telephone conversation with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev the day before Cheney’s arrival in Baku. During that conversation “the leaders of the two states exchanged opinions on urgent matters of the agenda of bilateral and international relations and also discussed the schedule of the upcoming political contacts.” But much is hidden between the lines of this strictly protocol language. Last summer Russia’s gas monopoly Gazprom offered to purchase Azeri gas in any volumes at “European prices”. It is difficult to resist such an offer and if Azerbaijan accepts it, it will no longer need Nabucco.

    Another thing is of no less importance. Late last week Moscow saw a meeting of the foreign ministers of the countries participating in the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) that embraces Russia, Belarus, Armenia and four Central Asian republics except Turkmenistan. The participants of the meeting discussed the possibility of recognizing the independence of the separatist Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in the context of their accession to the CSTO. A preliminary mutual understanding was achieved on this issue, but with one exception. Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan is known to have said before: “Armenia cannot recognize another unit in a similar situation until it recognizes the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. It is for this reason that Armenia once did not recognize the independence of Kosovo.”

    Yerevan made it clear to its CSTO allies that it recognizes Abkhazia and South Ossetia only in exchange for the recognition of Nagorno-Karabakh. And Russia cannot do this, as it has major energy interests in Azerbaijan and most likely some arrangements with the Azerbaijani leadership on this account. One should think that Moscow offered a dilemma to Baku: a) either Azerbaijan’s participation in Nabucco and other Western projects to Russia’s detriment; b) or Gazprom’s purchases of Azerbaijani gas at world prices and Moscow’s not recognizing Nagorno-Karabakh’s independence.

    It is not difficult to understand what pragmatic choice Aliyev, whose reelection as Azerbaijan’s president this week has not been contested by anyone from the outset, is to make. By recognizing the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Russia received a powerful Nagorno-Karabakh leverage for a long-term influence on this country. And those in Baku understood it adequately. Hence the chilly reception of Cheney and problems that the Nabucco project are likely to face.

    And in reverse: Armenian Prime Minister Tigran Sargsyan met with xxxx Cheney at the White House as part of his recent visit to the U.S. The two discussed bilateral relations between the United States and Armenia, prospects of their development, exchanged views on regional security matters. In particular, they addressed the subject of the damage inflicted on Armenia’s economy during the Georgian-Ossetian conflict, the visit of Turkish President Abdullah Gul to Yerevan, the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, the implementation of the Millennium Challenges program, the global financial crisis and others.

    Premier Sargsyan reaffirmed Armenia’s position that the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict must be achieved by means of negotiations within the framework of the OSCE Minsk Group. He called ‘dangerous’ the statements that refer only to Azerbaijan’s territorial integrity and ignore other accepted principles, which, he said, forms erroneous ideas and expectations of the conflict solution.

    It is possible that very soon official Washington will allow itself a good gesture in respect of Armenia. However, it is impossible to guess what they gesture will be…

    Last edited by Hye_Psycho; 10-18-2008, 10:46 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

      Damn.

      If my user name was SoyElArmenio, i don't think anything i said would have been interpreted with hostility. If i wrote the same things as an Armenian, I wouldn't be getting all this overeaction to the point where people would be trying to establish my incompetence by pointing out my spelling errors.

      What the hell? If I published as an Armenian, i would have been getting serious, critical and mannered responses.

      Why don't you start at a default that I'm Armenian, maybe then you won't really seek to misinterpret what im saying.

      THis gets annoying.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

        Originally posted by Armenian View Post
        Good question. A lot has changed in the region since Putin came to power. Russia's spectacular military victories over the Chechens and the Georgians during the last eight years (which were in essence victories over the West), coupled with the West's serious financial crisis, Russia today feels very confidant in the greater Caucasus region. Moscow feels confident enough to approach Ankara, a long standing NATO member, with serious longterm proposals. Turkey is feeling betrayed by the US and Israel because of their support of Kurdistan in northern Iraq, Turkey is feeling betrayed by Europe over the ever elusive European Union, and because of a resurgent Russia Turkey has also more-or-less given up hope on realizing its pan-Turanian wet dreams. Moreover, Turkey's large and lucrative economy is sorely dependent today on Russian supplied energy. So, in final analysis, Ankara may find itself being pushed into Russia's lap. How Moscow handles its new "friend" is anyone's guess.

        This is really gonna spin the thread off topic, but here it goes anyway.

        I read a couple of days ago, i think i found the link on of these threads, that a turkish general made a comment about leaving NATO. THough in reality, Turkey, i think would actually benefit more if it allied with russia, it would be extremely difficult given that greece is NATO member. IF turkey just left NATO and formed an alliance with Russia, any provocation with greece, would unnecessarily throw NATO and the Russian alliance at one another's throats.

        Even if the scenario isn't that simplistic, Turkey would have an extremely difficult time in acquiring American and European weaponry that is more modern than the derelict and obsolete russian alternatives. In terms of military equipment that Turkey needs to deal with the regional threat from kurds, the Russians can't suply turkey's needs.

        go to www.jamestown.org and read all the articles that they currently have on the right side of the page about russian-turkish relations and the needs of the turkish military. Russo-TUrkish relations

        Economically it would probably be better for Turkey to align with Russia and with some politcal issues regarding freedom of speech and human rights, Turkey would be more comfortable with Russian endorsement; it wouldn't really care about EU and US criticisms. But militarily and for future stability in the region, it could be disastrous.
        Last edited by SoyElTurco; 10-19-2008, 07:53 AM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

          Originally posted by SoyElTurco View Post
          Damn.

          If my user name was SoyElArmenio, i don't think anything i said would have been interpreted with hostility. If i wrote the same things as an Armenian, I wouldn't be getting all this overeaction to the point where people would be trying to establish my incompetence by pointing out my spelling errors.

          What the hell? If I published as an Armenian, i would have been getting serious, critical and mannered responses.

          Why don't you start at a default that I'm Armenian, maybe then you won't really seek to misinterpret what im saying.

          THis gets annoying.
          Turco,

          Changing your username will not be enough.

          If you to be taken seriously, there are a few things you have to do:

          The easy things that you should be able to do: Change username and avatar. Learn the Armenian language and history and...convert to christianity.

          The difficult things for you to do: stop being an idiot.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

            Originally posted by SoyElTurco View Post
            This is really gonna spin the thread off topic, but here it goes anyway.

            I read a couple of days ago, i think i found the link on of these threads, that a turkish general made a comment about leaving NATO. THough in reality, Turkey, i think would actually benefit more if it allied with russia, it would be extremely difficult given that greece is NATO member. IF turkey just left NATO and formed an alliance with Russia, any provocation with greece, would unnecessarily throw NATO and the Russian alliance at one another's throats.

            Even if the scenario isn't that simplistic, Turkey would have an extremely difficult time in acquiring American and European weaponry that is more modern than the derelict and obsolete russian alternatives. In terms of military equipment that Turkey needs to deal with the regional threat from kurds, the Russians can't suply turkey's needs.

            go to www.jamestown.org and read all the articles that they currently have on the right side of the page about russian-turkish relations and the needs of the turkish military. Russo-TUrkish relations

            Economically it would probably be better for Turkey to align with Russia and with some politcal issues regarding freedom of speech and human rights, Turkey would be more comfortable with Russian endorsement; it wouldn't really care about EU and US criticisms. But militarily and for future stability in the region, it could be disastrous.
            Refer to the last part of my previous post.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

              I didn't know about this. Though I always thought the British were contemptuous of any people who were not British. That's what I like about them.

              Originally posted by Armenian View Post
              if left unchecked, Armenians are one of the most dangerous peoples on earth; Armenians are a threat to regional stability; Armenians have a vast national network; Armenians are tight knit; Armenians are conspiring, wealthy and untrustworthy...
              I wish. Where can I pick up my check?

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

                Originally posted by TomServo View Post
                I didn't know about this. Though I always thought the British were contemptuous of any people who were not British. That's what I like about them.
                I disagree. The modern British (20th Century islanders) have been painfully liberal and their society has been very pluralistic. Don't forget that the term "British" is not a term suggesting ethnicity, it's essentially a political term meaning a union of Scots, English, Welsh and perhaps the Irish, in some sense. What you are referring to is their "contemptuous" upper class, their leftover elite. British liberalism, pluralism and their ability to absorb other ethnicities has been one of their greatest strengths, something that has kept them from falling into the dark ages after they lost their empire as a result of the first and second world wars. Nonetheless, as with any nationality, even ours, there will always be a class of citizens in a nation that will look down on all others. It's human.

                I wish. Where can I pick up my check?
                I get the sarcasm, but try to see if you can look at what Lawrence said from a pre-Genocide perspective, when Armenians, from Constantinople to Tbilisi to Baku, were very prominently represented in politics and trade.
                Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

                Նժդեհ


                Please visit me at my Heralding the Rise of Russia blog: http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

                  Originally posted by Virgil View Post
                  What a joke? Yeah, Armenia had $1 billion in aid from Russia, but the Armenian fighters did not have running water. El Asswipe, shut the xxxx up and stop trying to play the "I am pretending to be a Turkish intellectual and attempting to be the 'bigger man'", frankly, no one buys it.

                  The reality is that Azerbaijan was well funded. They both had better technology sold to them by west and also their military was trained by west. They also hired mercenaries and were being supported also by Chechens. I would say the odds were overwhelmingly in the favor of Azerbaijan, but they failed miserably. In fact, most of the tanks and arms that were used by the Armenian side was actually taken from Azerbaijan.

                  But seriously, you are stupid, to claim that a landlocked country with no resources had the financial "upper hand" against a oil rich nation like Azerbaijan is very absurd. One more thing, the war was not between "Armenia and Azerbaijan", stop making it seem like it was a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan when it was actually a war between Armenian villagers and Azerbaijan, you prick.
                  Hey take it easy with the damn insults. If you can get your point across in a clearer way, do so, stop resorting to the damn insults.
                  Achkerov kute.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

                    Originally posted by Armenian View Post
                    Until 1992 Armenians in Nagorno Karabagh fought without any foreign help, unlike Azerbaijan that had strong assistance from the Soviet Union (until 1991), Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, Afghanistan, Chechnya, as well as significant help from various western powers. Azerbaijan has been literally awash in tens of billions of petrodollars and you are complaining about the one billion dollars in Russian military aid Armenia received? Nonetheless, the military aid you are referring to came 'after' the end of the war in 1994, not during. With Western/Turkish attempts to penetrate the Caucasus soon after the Soviet Union's collapse, Moscow realized the great strategic significance of Armenia. As a result, Moscow began assisting Armenia in 1993/1994 with the hopes of stopping the Turkish/Western penetration in the region.
                    Very lucid post! Thanks.

                    Now, SoyElTurco, what do you have to say to that?
                    Achkerov kute.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Russian domination of Armenia.

                      Russia is not protecting Armenia against Azerbaijan but Turkey. Maybe at future, Azerbaijan military will surpass armenian one but for now, Armenians can protect themself. Anyway, what Armenian following is real politics.

                      But, It is somehow sad, They did not follow real politics at 1915. Otherwise, survival rate will increase.

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