Armenia: A Second Israel

[Hye]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Eddo211 you can't put constraint on a factor and go on arguing meaning yoyu can't say Israel without its nukes would lose against Turkey coz it doesn't work like that its like saying Turkey without its 70 mill population would lose against Armenia. Israel is strong no because it has a good millitary force or nukes but also it has influence on many countries specialy superpower(s) and donn't undersestimate the Israely will to use its nuclear arcenal in case of Turkish invasion to the point where the Israely existance is at treat Istanbul Ankara and many other major cities will go to the ground and Turkey would fall. Anyway these are just speculations

[Suedia]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Hye,

You are saying golden words. I didn't know that a Lebanese-Armenian could think like this (no offense). All what i've heard of leb-Armenians is that they are well stuck to their traditionl parties, and that they are ultra-nationalist. However, that's not the point. What you are saying about strengthening Armenia is 100% what I'm saying. And yes, for me too Artsakh is part of Armenia. That should be our main goal.

Now, About the Armenian Genocide, I am not saying we should completely forget about it. It is one Armenians' and Armenia's national interests. We cannot completely forget about it. What i'm saying is, we should get stronger positions in the Diaspora in congresses, parliaments, etc etc, and form a United Armenian Diaspora Lobby. Since 1915, the Diaspora is disorganized, as the ugly saying goes "ammen mart ir eshe ge keshe", that's what's happening now in the Diaspora.

Let's get back to our topic: The current Republic of Armenia and Artsakh together(including the liberated territories) are exactly what separate the mongol races from each other. If Armenia falls, then the mongols with unite, create a pan-turanian empire, becoming a huge problem from the West and Russia. Eventually, they will become the world's new superpower. One thing that could have helped Armenia be in better conditions, was if it had a sea... unfortunanetly we have no border with the Black Sea, and we are obliged to obey what our neighbors tell us(in some cases). I feel that the protocols recently signed have more pro-turkish points than pro-armenian, but that's just my point of view.

[Suedia]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Another thing i would like to tell: the Republic of Armenia is becoming a little too attached to the Russian FEderation. If this continues gradually, we would become completely their puppets.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Hi anoush and Sueida
I think every person has a pain in his/her heart that however he/she tries to forget or get away from keeps on hurting and doesn't go away my pain is my motherland and Armenians an an entity as a whole i have talk argues ALOT about what I will say next please take time read and share opinons and try to understand what im saying hoping I could explaine well I have opned a tread in this forum about this issue but only few had replied i swear not to talk about it again but i can't because ...
Anoush jan all you have mention is very beautiful. iin one word we all want better strong powerful Armenia. I agree with all of what you wrote but we all must look at the GRAVE situation realistically critically from now on. I have said and will say again PEOPLE OUR BACKS TO THE WALL if we don't wake up we would be writing the LAST pages of our history. what you are saying Im with them support them but they are vague preyers and whishes that we write peoms and songs we hear from Armenian channel from TV just words with o concrete stps or plans or anything.
Goals:
Today Armenians MUST have ONE AND ONLY ONE TRUE goal and it is ENSURING THE PHYSICAL SURVIVAL OF THE REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA 42000 SQUARE KM (artsakh included for me it is Armenia). full stop all other issues come far second if not third INCLUDING ARMENIAN GENOCIDE RECOGNITION including teraching the dispora Armenia preserving armenian traditions or i donno what these ARE important but no as important as the survival of Armenia and we ALL must sacrifice for this perpouse.
the second important issue id Djavakhk for me because it is a piece of Armenian land bordering Armenia but its outside Armenian border.
I don't want to list the Armenian nationak goals now these are the most the first 2 iomportant ones for me.
Anoush jan you say that we should gain influence in our own countries meaning we should be united block of votes and help certain people to reachj to congress and let them surve our goals and in the mean time you say we should repatriate how? if you leave US and go to Amenia then the Armenian comunity in US will get weaker. my IDEA is we should work such that Armenian from US remains in US and influence and do his/her obligations towards Armenia but not repatriate and let the Armenian in Armenia stay in Armenia (ofcourse by creating the right enviroment to do so) and strengthen Armenia we can't affort to lose Armenia nor we can affort to lose the Diaspora.
you have written very BEAUTIFULL and true to its bones quote by charents in your signiture our strenth is in our unity. so if we wanna build strong Armenia Armenian as whole should get wealthier and help each other. I don't believe in charity nor in volanteers these are things that come and go no one cangarantee that it both will remain but the situation is so grave that we can't affort to depend these. WE ALL ARE OBLIGED TO STRENGTHEN ARMENIA it is our duty we must realise this. moreover how can I help you for example when I for one need the help when I for one am on my knees? do you know what grave situation there is in the middle east? i know Armenia needs our help but how can you ask help or patriotism from an Armenian family in Lebanon or Syria or jordan if they don't have bread to eat? i live in Lebanon my father is in Churches "taghagan khorhurt" I have worked in many organisations believe me its so bad the situation how can you ask them to serve when they need help? Im sick and tired of hearing the same old STUPID so called "traditional Party" Arguments hnchag tashnag Im sick and tired of paying national tax "azgayin durk" to the church arachnortaran and not knowing where the hell is this money going? Im sick and tired of hereing people talkinmg about unity when we are hating each other im sick and tired of seeing IDOITS imeciles in high positions. Im sick and tired of comemorating the black genocide when Armenia is living the white one. Im sick and tired of people arguing that there is no Armenian pure calture left in Lebanon that Armenians are going to foreign schools when there is NO ARMENIAN LEFT IN LEBANON. just look at our histroy its the same old arguments same old problems WHEN WILL WE WAKE UPPPPPPPPP? we still throw the word traitor left and right in history and present days and we can't see that the bigest traitors of our nation are us. IS THERE A SELFRESPECTING NATION IN THE WORLD WHO SAYS I HAVE NO PROBLEM IF MY COUTRY WAS PART OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION. Im not cretisizing the person who thinks such the hell with it I THINK SUCH Im critisizing the Armenian nation to be soooooooooooooo weak unorganized to allow such. im sick and tired of blidness of Armenians the inabilty to see in the future and even more the ability to act. Poor Armenians you get excited when you collect 17 mil USD by cherity by all Armenian fund this is a TRAGEDY for me ARE WE BUILDING A NATION WITH THIS? ARE WE BULDING TWOOOOOOOOOOOOO INDEPENDANT STATES WITH THIS I DONNO SHOULD I CRY OR LAUGH. If we continue om this path believe me we are in the end of our road history doesn't have mercy many people came and went we will be one of them.
Im sorry if i offended anyone I didn't mean it.

You are saying that there are no Armenians left in Lebanon? I thought that there are still at least 50-80,000 Armenians left in Lebanon. However, I didn't know that a good deal of them are poor. Armenians are always entrepreneurs, and I am guessing now that the long war brought them down to the poorhouses or their knees as you put it; at least to the 50 percent of the population. I am saddened that a good deal of them are poor now.

Hye what are you saying? Why are you calling us traitors? How dare you say such a stupid thing. If in the past I called Sargsyan a traitor it is because he submitted to turkey with the protocols and with it his submission to turkey. I was justified and I am leaving it at that. Now I am going to call you both a liar and a traitor for calling me and my brothers in here traitors when we are the opposite.

[Hye]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Suedia,
When you are working there is always priorities. There are primary goals secondary goals and so on in my opinon the Genocide recognition is not primary goal right now I don't wana get into details for me Armenian survival, Artsakh survival and why not union with Armenia and even Djavakhk uniion to Armenia is much important to me than Genocide recognition im not saying we should forget and move one hell no Im just saying we should not concentrate on it and make it our priorty. you said VERY VERY VERY important thing in your post Armenia would have been better if we had sea. So what does this mean? it means our national stratagy and intrest and goal for the future should be to reaching to the black sea how? this needs ALOT of discussion planing. is it atchievable logically no but let me ask was it logical in 1980 the fall of USSR? leberation of Artsakh? people whould have laughed at you in 1920 when you tld them Germany will counqure France in 1939 anyway if this (stablishing border with black sea) is the critical turnover for our modern history then we must do EVERYTHING possible to atchieve we hsould set targets put plans steps and work in that way this is how it works and not what we are doing now we are like a paper in the wind. MAYBE at a point in time it will be in our intrest to get close to the Turks my point is in this case we should take this step we should be pro Armenian think of our intrest and goals first and formost. look at the Turks in the beginning of the 20th century they made alliance with Bolsheviks two ARCH rivals historically and at that time .... did Bolsheviks ever stop dreaming of reaching to the meditearenian through Turkey? NO did the Turks ever forget taking Caucasus and reaching to central Asia? NO but they colleborated and they established themselves as poweres in the region.
I would like to point out that in the upcoming centuries NO SUPERPOWER will emerge that is not located geograohically in NORTH AMERICA so don't worry about that because of 2 main reasons passific ocean and attlantic ocean who controls them militerily controls the world and since Noth America has border with both its easier for it to control the oceans and also the world just like Europeans controled the Atalantic and becamse superpower in the past. So presently the USA's and in the future maybe Canda's or most probably MEXICO's national intrest is to disturb any nation into becoming a power to chalange their right to rule just like USA is doing is the middle east right now you thikn they are losing in Afghanistan or Iraq? HELL NO they are wining coz no power will emerge in Eurasia that will chalange USA in this situation. sorry I got little offtopic but anyway.
but this all doesn't mean that Turkey doesn't have embition to reach central Asia to the point it doesn't treat USA's rule as a supreme power. And Turkey in its activity now is emerging as a presentor of the majory of the muslem world more and more. BUT as long as Russia is standing on its feet and is strong enoug Turkey will not expand to the Caucasus and central Asia if Russia falls there is NO Armenia left and this is my biggest concern USA will not be against Turkish expansion to the east as long as its not treatening USA control and Turkey would be so causiouse not to Russia will be weak if it falls (and don't be so surprised in the end we are talking about a nation who fell 2 times in one century whats holding for another revolution or I donno what?) and WE are still stuck in the past calling each other traitors or I donno what?
As for Armenia being attached to Russia, I wanna say that we sometimes overestimate Armenias abilities right now yeah no one wants to be Russia or anyones puppet but we have no choice.
And if you want my opinon on how we can stablish strong Armenia we can talk about it with pleasure.

[Suedia]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Anoush and Hye, this is no place to start an argument that will get you two nowhere. You can argue in another thread. I would like to remind us of another thing very common in us Armenians: We are a little too much over-emotional. We must not look at our country subjectively, but objectively, get serious, start to find logical and realistic ways to help the homeland. So please both of you, don't start an argument mixed with emotions. Get serious.

[Hye]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

anoush jan you undesrtood me wrong Im calling all of us traitors including myself because we haven't raised to the chalanges that are against us and not calling you or anyone for protocol or anything Im just in pain because of how low Armenians have sank we have huge potential and yet we remain such please don't get offended Im not directing my accusations to you personally but to Armenians in general based on what I see around me and believe me its painfull it because of my deep sorrow I say such. As for lebanon the comunity is suffering finentiall and intelectually. people with some money take positions in parties organisations and make it their own playground traditional parties argue on smallest stupidest of things and don't see the truth leaders care about their positions more than what they should do and the comunity suffers. yes Armenians have been the leaders in Lebanon but now Im afraid its not like that

[Suedia]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Hye,
I am not saying to take up arms and conquer the black sea. That is impossible for the moment for Armenia. I said it WOULD HAVE been better if we had border with the black sea.

The Armenian Genocide should not be the primary goal of Armenians: yes
The Armenian Genocide should be completely ignored: NO! We will keep the world awake, always talking about the Genocide. Even if countries won't recognize it, we have nothing to lose in it.

Our primary goal, as you said, is to strengthen the current Republic of Armenia, and have a pro-Armenian stance, on the condition that we become more powerful than Turkey. Without power, we have nothing! With power, we control everyhting.

About North America: Every Superpower rises and falls, look at Rome, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire, Assyrian Empire etc. One day the USA will fall too. Most probably the newer superpower would be China. And about that, we(Armenia) would gain alot if we strengthen our relations with the Chinese.

About the protocols, I am not against them AS LONG AS they will not weaken Armenia, because according to what i see, there are points in it that are more Pro-Turkish than Pro-Armenian...

Yes if Russia falls, there will be no more Armenia... But, what if Armenia became the one controlling Russia? They would always work for our favor. Just like how Israel controls the USA...

We should either become a Lion, or have a collar around a Lion!

[Anoush]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Hye, I know that from now on don't address me and I will see to it that I stay away from you. Yes from your post I am offended, at least for now.

[Suedia]

Re: Armenia: A Second Israel

Anoush and Hye, for the last time stop arguing in the wrong thread!