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Pan-Turanism / Pan-Turkism Database

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  • #21
    Re: Pan-Turanism / Pan-Turkism Database

    Is there a process of Turkification where distinct Iranian ethnic groups from what is now called The Republic of Azerbaijan are falsely being misled into believing that they are all ethnic Turks? According to scholars, Yes. Why is this relevant? Because it shows the movement to institute Turkic-Azeri as a 'mother-tongue' is fictional and unsupported by history. Turkic-Azeri is a relatively recent linguistic phenomenon that is also being utilized to get disparate ethnic groups to believe that they are all ethnic Turks.

    The overwhelming weight of scholarship links most of the history of what is now called The Republic of Azerbaijan to the history of Iran, Iranian ethnic groups, and Iranian languages, as indicated by each of the following scholars:

    * * *

    As noted by De Goeje in 1894, and Arab historians prior to him, “The Persians are a people whose borders are the Mahat Mountains and Azerbaijan up to Armenia and Aran....”

    (See Al Mas'udi, Kitab al-Tanbih wa-l-Ishraf, De Goeje, M.J. (ed.), Leiden, Brill, 1894, Pp. 77–8.) This territory is today called "The Republic of Azerbaijan."

    * * *

    In Volume 3, of The Colliers Encyclopedia, Professor Tadeusz Swietochowski, an Honorary Doctor of Baku State University and Member of Central Eurasian Studies Society, with an academic specialization in the history of Azerbaijan states:

    “From the time of ancient Media and the Persian Empire (9th to 4th centuries B.C.), Azerbaijan usually shared the history of what is now Iran (Persia).”

    (See Volume 3, Colliers Encyclopedia, Professor Tadeusz Swietochowski.)

    * * *

    According to Gilbert Lazard and Richard Nelson Frye the original language of Azerbaijan was an Iranian dialiect:

    "Azarbaijan was the domain of Adhari, an important Iranian dialect which Masudi mentions together with Dari and Pahlavi."

    (Lazard, Gilbert 1975, "The Rise of the New Persian Language" in Frye, R. N., The Cambridge History of Iran, Vol. 4, pp. 595-632, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp 599.)

    * * *

    Professor Igrar Aliyev states that:

    "1. In the writing of medieval Arab historians (Ibn Hawqal, Muqqaddesi..), the people of Azarbaijan spoke Azari. 2. This Azari was without doubt an Iranian language because it is also contrasted with Dari but it is also mentioned as Persian. It was not the same as the languages of the Caucasus mentioned by Arab historians. 3. Azari is not exactly Dari (name used for the Khorasanian Persian which is the Modern Persian language). From the research conducted by researchers upon this language, it appears that this language is part of the NW Iranian languages and was close to Talyshi language (a language closely related to Persian). Talyshi language has kept some of the characteristics of the Median language."

    (Professor Ighrar Aliyev. The History of Aturpatakan. Persian Translation by Dr. Shaadman Yusuf. Balkh Publishers. Tehran. 1999.)

    * * *

    Richard Nelson Frye, of Harvard University, describes Azeri as "a major Iranian language" and notes of its its "partial replacement with Azeri Turkish, the present-day language of Azerbaijan."

    (R. N. Frye, "PEOPLES OF IRAN" in Encyclopędia Iranica. Excerpt: "The long and complex history of Azari (q.v.), a major Iranian language and the original language of the region, and its partial replacement with Azeri Turkish, the present-day language of Azerbaijan, is surveyed in detail and with a wealth of citations from historical sources elsewhere in the Encyclopaedia (see AZERBAIJAN vii). Although the original Azari gradually lost its stature as the prevalent language by the end of the 14th century, the fact that the region had produced some of the finest Persian writers and poets of classical Persian, including Qaṭrān of Tabriz, Neẓāmi of Ganja, Ḵāqāni of Širvān, Homām of Tabriz (q.v.), Awḥadi of Marāḡa, Zayn-al-ʿĀbedin of Širvān, Maḥmud of Šabestar, Ṣafi-al-Din of Urmia, ʿAbd-al-Qāder of Marāḡa, etc., has induced literary historians to talk of "The School of Azerbaijan" (Rypka).")

    (If you want to add to this post, just click "Reply with Quote" & keep adding without discussing; see Post #1 for guidelines and reasons. Feel welcome to copy this notice to keep subsequent additions on-point.)
    Last edited by Persopolis; 04-10-2011, 09:09 PM.


    • #22
      Re: Pan-Turanism / Pan-Turkism Database

      Azerbaijan and Georgia: disputed border
      Fri 11 March 2011 10:02 GMT | 3:02 Local Time
      Text size:

      Seymur Kazimov looks at an ongoing border dispute between two strategic allies in the Southern Caucasus, Azerbaijan and Georgia.
      The dispute centres around a 6th-century monastery on the border of the two countries – the monument is known as David Gareja Monastery in Georgia and Keshish Dag (Priest Mountain) or Keshikchi Dag (Guardian Mountain) in Azerbaijan. The monastery complex consists of more than 20 churches and numerous cave cells covering approximately 25 square kilometres and straddling both sides of the Azerbaijani-Georgian border.

      The disputed territory has been discussed many times by officials of both countries and by the presidents. Tbilisi and Baku consider each other to be good neighbours and officially do not regard the border issue as a dispute; nevertheless, some 35% of the 480-km border has still to be agreed.

      The dispute is related to history and, as both countries have their own historical interpretations and sources, it remains unresolved. The Georgian side says that the site belongs to them, while the Azerbaijani side says that this complex is part of the ancient Caucasian Albanian culture and, therefore, bears no relation to Georgians. When both Georgia and Azerbaijan were part of the Soviet Union, the delimitation of borders was not particularly discussed. This process started after the countries gained their independence.

      The current border runs through the monastery grounds, with the majority of the churches on the Georgian side and a notable church and monastery, Bertubani, on the Azerbaijani side. There are border guards on both sides. Azerbaijani and Georgian officials are working to determine the dividing line between the two countries, but have not achieved a result as yet.
      Strategic heights
      Baku considers the area around Bertubani Church, part of the David Gareja complex, to be a strategic height, so it is refusing to give this land to Georgia.

      “These are major heights for Azerbaijan. Although we are friends, it doesn’t mean that we will give strategic heights like these to another state,” a representative of the Azerbaijani State Border Service said.

      Azerbaijani researcher and journalist Ismayil Umudlu does not believe that Baku could surrender its own land, especially heights of strategic importance to a neighbouring country. “In world practice when borders are set between countries, heights are taken as a borderline. Hillsides are not considered as the border. If we give this high ground and hillside to our neighbours, they will end up with control over the other plain, which is our territory. One country can monitor another’s territory from this high ground. There is no compromise over high ground in the border delimitation process.”

      However, Iveri Melashvili, chief adviser in the Georgian Foreign Ministry's political department and a member of the commission on border delimitation and demarcation, does not agree with the Azerbaijani position: “I don’t see any strategic or serious point here. We are neighbours and I don’t believe that there could be any problems between neighbours.”

      * * *
      Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told journalists at Tbilisi airport in 2007, after seeing off Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev, that agreement had been reached under which Azerbaijan would keep the strategic heights while Bertubani monastery would be returned to Georgia. This prompted a furore in Azerbaijan and Georgia. The leader of the Georgian Conservative Party, Zviad Dzidziguri, told the Georgian media that the Saakashvili government was giving Georgian historical monuments to Azerbaijan because of oil and gas interests.

      * * *
      Marika Lortkipanidze, professor at Tbilisi's Ivane Javakhishvili State University and a member of the National Academy of Sciences, says that this issue is becoming more political than historical, although the monasteries are ancient Georgian land and the monastery complex should be returned to Georgia immediately. “On 26 May 1918 when Georgia declared its independence, David Gareja was completely in Georgian territory. Russia recognized the Georgian borders, which also included David Gareja. In 1926 some of these lands were included in Azerbaijani territory. The Bertubani Church, which is presently in Azerbaijani territory, was built by Georgians,” the Georgian historian said.

      She said that the architectural style and frescoes confirmed that Bertubani Church was culturally Georgian. The academician denied that the territory had ever been part of Caucasian Albania. She added that borders were not accurately and clearly shown in books by ethnic historians.

      Lortkipanidze dismissed reports by Azerbaijani academics that during the Soviet period Georgian historians had erased old writing on the walls and painted frescoes. She said there was no scientific basis for the reports. According to Georgian, Armenian and Greek sources, the monuments are in Georgian territory, Lortkipanidze said. Even the writing is in ancient Georgian script, the academic said, and could not have been added at a later date. "There is the science of palaeography that reads and analyses old writing. This science can even identify writing when the period is not known."

      Another academic to have studied the church complex is Zaza Skhirtladze, a Georgian art historian and representative of the Georgian Patriarchate. He says that the research can be divided into two areas - academic and political - and that the problem should be resolved academically. He does not accept that the church complex belongs to Azerbaijan or to Azerbaijanis' predecessors, the Albanians. “It is out of the question that Gareja church and boundaries put Bertubani in Albania or Azerbaijan. It is known that the monastery was founded by a monk in the 6th century. From the 7th or 8th century it became a centre of Georgian culture. There are hundreds of manuscripts here," Skhirtladze said.

      The Georgian professor says that the frescoes did not come from the ancient Albanian state. Documents clearly confirm that the church complex is Georgian, Skhirtladze said, which is confirmed by the hundreds of manuscripts, paintings of Georgian kings, mosaics, frescoes and the fact that Georgian clergymen studied there. “There are enough documents about it as well as historical facts. The manuscripts are kept in the State Archive. There are hundreds of them,” the art historian said.

      Bertubani built by Caucasian Albanians?

      Yunis Nasibli, assistant professor of Azerbaijani history at Baku State University and vice-president of the Caucasus Research Centre, does not agree with the arguments that David Gareja is a Georgian monument.

      When Caucasian Albania was occupied by the Arab Caliphate in the 7th century, part of the population accepted Islam while others kept Christianity. Many, however, stopped going to churches and monasteries.

      He said that as Georgia became more powerful in the 12th century, a number of Georgian churches were built. This can be seen mainly from Armenian, Georgian and Syriac sources, the Azerbaijani historian said. “This information can also be found in the Albanian history by Moses Kalankatuyklu."

      The Azerbaijani historian has studied Georgian sources which he says show that David Gareja is not a Georgian monument. Georgian historian David Muskhelishvili in his book “Georgia in the 4th to 6th Centuries” says that these territories belonged to Caucasian Albania. Then the territories underwent an assimilation process.

      Nasibli said that the attitude of the Georgian government towards monuments in Azerbaijan could only cast a shadow on relations between these two strategic partners. The Azerbaijani historian said that numerous Muslim monuments of the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries in Georgian territory had been destroyed. A unique mosque where the Gorgasali monument now stands in Tbilisi was demolished. “Georgians and Armenians are professional at destroying monuments. These two nations think that any land where they have their churches historically belongs to them.”

      Nasibli said that Beturbani monastery had been a military test range during the Soviet period, which accounted for the destroyed walls and frescoes. “Bullet holes can even be seen on the monastery walls. We must not forget that the atheist upbringing of the Soviets meant that little attention was paid to religious monuments.”

      Azerbaijani journalist and researcher Ismail Umudlu says that Russian military maps from the Soviet period show that the Betubani caves are located in Azerbaijan, on a hillside known as Priest Mountain in some sources and Molladag (Mullah Mountain). In Russian military maps of the Transcaucasus Military District in Gazakh District, all the place names around the mountain are Azeri names.

      As for ancient times, Umudulu says that the people living in these lands were Suvar Turks, not Georgians. As proof of this, he refers his Georgian colleagues to the works of Armenian, Arab and even Georgian historians. “The frescoes added to the monastery walls after the 12th century are Georgian, because the monastery was under Georgian custody till approximately the 16th century. There was writing in the Syriac Aramaic language under these pictures. The Aramaic language is a dead language. Georgians accept this fact. It is as dead a language as Latin. The writing under the frescoes can be read using computer technology. Further serious archaeological excavation could reveal more texts in Syriac Aramaic. In the 6th to 12th centuries this language was a church language. It is of Syriac origin, not Georgian.”

      Umudlu said that it was wrong to consider the church purely as a religious object. Even if this monument is considered only as a church or from the Christian point of view, Caucasian Albania would have the right to lay claims to it as well. “If the church was within its geographical territory, it belongs to it. There are different religions in every country. There are numerous mosques in Georgian territory, but this does not mean that those lands belong to us. Though it was a Christian church, Muslims living nearby considered it a holy site. Shepherds still make sacrifices to God there.”


      Iveri Melashvili, chief adviser in the Georgian Foreign Ministry's political department and a member of the commission on border delimitation and demarcation, said that all the obstacles came from journalists in search of big stories who stirred up the public. “It is not because we give no comments. Any inappropriate word to the media affects the negotiating process. Therefore, as per mutual agreement the outcome of the negotiating process is not made public. We have normal working relations. There are certain things which, if disclosed will be misunderstood. We will not be able to get on with our work if we inform the public about the negotiations.”

      Conflict management expert Margarita Akhvlediani summed up Melashvili's attitude as “if you have a headache cut your head off instead of going to a doctor”. She said it was important to keep the media informed about the process. She said a public outcry could be created by the state authorities, patriarchate or city authorities expressing their opinion on the matter. “The commission has been set up but nobody knows who is on it. I support publicity for disputes and public discussions. Passing David Gareja to Georgia does not mean that the Georgians will transport the complex to Tbilisi or that Azerbaijan will take it to Baku. It will stay where it is. It can be used by both parties. Lack of information can cause sabotage, even bloodshed.”

      Akhvlediani implies that commission members and politicians are mainly to blame for the strained situation among the public. She says that the main source of inaccurate information is not journalists but the specialists themselves. “Who stops these people going to the press? Why don’t they organize programs on Public TV? They should invite their Azeri colleagues. Then the journalists will be powerless. They should be working together with the media. There are many smart people among the public; they are capable of analysing all the facts.” At the same time she did not deny that some journalists misrepresented information to stir up public opinion.

      * * *

      The press secretary of the Azerbaijani Ministry of Culture and Tourism, Intiqam Humbatov, said that on 19 December 2007 Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev signed a decree declaring Guardian Mountain in Agstafa District of the Azerbaijan Republic a state historical and cultural reserve. He said that the reserve was open, had administrative buildings and managerial staff had been appointed. “The management of the reserve is planning to arrange excursions from nearby schools to the complex to help with the study of Azerbaijani history," Humbatov said.

      According to information from the Ministry of Culture and Tourism, Keshikchidag (Guardian Mountain) State Historical and Cultural Reserve is in the hands of researchers. There are 70 caves, one castle, two churches and one chapel there. An expedition from Azerbaijani National Academy of Sciences' Archaeology and Ethnography Institute started research at the complex after it was made a reserve. “They discovered that this old Albanian settlement Keshikchidag (Guardian Mountain) was built in the Middle Ages for defensive purposes. The latest investigations uncovered three graves in one of the caves. This area was closed in the 19th century, because it was used as a military testing ground. Repairs and restoration work are planned in the complex. It is planned to use one of the caves as a museum for objects found on the reserve," Humbatov said.

      Latest meetings

      The Azerbaijani and Georgian commissions on delimitation of the state border last came together in September in the Azerbaijani town of Balakan, their third meeting in 2010. The Georgian delegation was led by Deputy Foreign Minister David Jalagania and the Azerbaijani delegation by Deputy Foreign Minister Khalaf Khalafov. "We have agreed two-thirds of the total length of our common state border. So far, we have delimited 300 out of 480 kilometres of the state border," Khalafov said after the meeting.

      Despite the increased activity, the two sides appear no nearer agreement on David Gareja.
      Georgian Deputy Foreign Ministry Nino Kalandadze said in December that Georgia was not going to compromise over David Gareja, but that a territorial swap with Azerbaijan might be possible. Georgian experts had been suggesting that Azerbaijan might give up David Gareja in exchange for the village of Erismedi, another disputed spot along the border. Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry spokesman Elkhan Polukhov soon ruled this out, however, saying that a territorial exchange was not under discussion.

      * * *


      • #23
        Re: Pan-Turanism / Pan-Turkism Database

        Why Should Armenians Learn About Pan-Turkism & Turkification?

        An Arab eyewitness to the Armenian Genocide, Fayez el Husseyn, writes in his memoirs "... After the massacres of the Armenians, the government established commissions who were engaged in selling the leftover property. Armenian cultural values were sold at the cheapest prices... Once I went to the church to see how the sale of these things is organized. The doors of the Armenian schools were closed. The Turks used textbooks and scientific books in the bazaar for wrapping cheese, dates, sunflowers... "

        In 1912-1913 the Armenian Patriarchy of Istanbul presented an account of the churches and monasteries in Western Armenia (Eastern Anatolia) and in the Ottoman Empire. More than 2300 were accounted for including the early unique Christian monuments of IV-V centuries. Most part of them were looted, burned and destroyed by the Turks during the genocide.

        The policy of destruction adopted by the Young Turks with regard to Armenian historical and cultural heritage was continued in Republican Turkey, where these relics were viewed as undesirable witnesses of the Armenian presence.

        At the end of 1920s, Turkey began the process of changing the names and titles (Toponymy) of certain locations in Western Armenia. Presently 90% of the Armenian cities, towns and buildings in Eastern Turkey (Eastern Anatolia) Western Armenia have been Turkified. Armenian geographical sites' names have also been replaced with Turkish names. Devising a systemanic method of destruction, hundreds of architectural monuments have been destroyed and all Armenian inscriptions erased.

        In 1974 UNESCO stated that after 1923, out of 913 Armenian historical monuments left in Eastern Turkey, 464 have vanished completely, 252 are in ruins, and 197 are in need of complete repair.

        Armenian architectural buildings are consistently being demolished using dynamite and used as a targets during Turkish military training exercises; the undamaged stones are used as construction materials as well. In some rural places, Armenian monasteries and churches serve as a stables, stores, clubs and in once case, even a jail. On many occasions the Turkish government converted Armenian churches into mosques.

        On June 18, 1987 the Council of Europe adopted a Decree wherein the 6th point mentions that: the Turkish government must pay attention to and take care of the armenian language, culture and educational system of the Armenian Diaspora living in Turkey, simultaneously demanding an appropriate regard to the Armenian historical monuments that are in modern Turkey’s territory.


        • #24
          Re: Pan-Turanism / Pan-Turkism Database

          The most important reason for Armenians to learn about pan-turanism is because at its core the ideology requires the extinction of the Armenians from Asia Minor and the Caucasus. Hence, de-Armenizing the Armenian heartland.
          For the first time in more than 600 years, Armenia is free and independent, and we are therefore obligated
          to place our national interests ahead of our personal gains or aspirations.


          • #25
            Re: Pan-Turanism / Pan-Turkism Database

            An Armenian's Take on Pan-Turkism:

            (If you want to add to this post, just click "Reply with Quote" & keep adding without discussing; see Post #1 for guidelines and reasons. Feel welcome to copy this notice to keep subsequent additions on-point.)
            Last edited by Persopolis; 04-10-2011, 09:10 PM.


            • #26
              Re: Pan-Turanism / Pan-Turkism Database

              Simplistic, incomplete, but good for a quick understanding of the dynamic at play: Ideally it would make a chapter in a much larger book.


              (If you want to add to this post, just click "Reply with Quote" & keep adding without discussing; see Post #1 for guidelines and reasons. Feel welcome to copy this notice to keep subsequent additions on-point.)[/QUOTE]


              • #27
                Re: Pan-Turanism / Pan-Turkism Database

                A very interesting thread. Keep up the good work Persopolis.