Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

[Eddo211]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Pers e polic is like no Iranian I have ever come across......ghial mikooni ma shabieh to kharim?......toghmeh sag. Ageh mardi javabeh mano bedeh

[Persopolis]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

I had a hard-time understanding where the denial of the obvious stems from; then I dug deeper. I am not sure what I can say about child-rearing and societal attitudes that produces these kinds of results.

THE QUESTION I POSED:

The real question for me is where does the denial of identity come from? Stated differently: What was the catalyst for the political manipulation of beliefs about family ancestry, parentage, cultural origin, nationality, and tribal affiliation? Is it from the establishment differing religions?

THE ANSWER AS TO THE LOSS OF CONTACT WITH REALITY IS OBVIOUS:

* “[M]y parents would always tell me that we were Armenians—that we were nothing like Iranians. And then when we got back to our homeland, we were suddenly called Iranian. It was a big blow," she says.”

* "I had a customer with whom I worked for two years who said I spoke good Armenian for an Iranian. I said my name is Sevak, like Paruir Sevak's name, and asked how he could think I was an Iranian. Once, during the Nowruz period, someone came and congratulated me on the occasion. It was embarrassing for me, because it is very insulting for us," says Hovhannisian.

* ‘Having lived under a totally different system, we found ourselves in another reality, an alien and often unacceptable one," recalls Eduard Hakhverdian, now 58, [an Iranian-Armenian who moved to Armenia].”

* “ Armine Darsbidian, remembers that she had her first bitter experience in Armenia while attending a parents' meeting at school during which one of the parents said: ‘Take money from the Persian. She has come from the country of the Shah; she's rich.’ ”

* “The proud [Iranian-Armenian] repatriates were looked upon with suspicion by Soviet authorities and with a degree of contempt by the Armenians.”

* "Everything was strange for me. The language seemed to be the same, but was odd because so many Russian words were mixed in….”

http://www.agbu.org/publications/article.asp?A_ID=656

* “Iranian-Armenians – say they are encountering difficulty in gaining acceptance in Yerevan.”

* “[T]he old ‘inferiority complex’ among locals that diaspora Armenians are “better educated and wealthier” still lingers.”

* “A professor once pointed her out to classmates as a representative of Muslim countries such as Iran, she said. ‘I was so hurt that I took out my cross and showed it to him.’ ”

* “Many Iranian Armenians say that, with time, they have learned to take their image as “foreigners” [in Armenia] in stride, but caution that much work remains to be done to encourage acceptance of diaspora Armenians resident in Armenia.”

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/62178

[Persopolis]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

For whomever wants to see: (about 10 minutes work ... I'm sure it could be done even better.)

Iranians on the left -- Iranian-Armenians on the Right (Meant to Be viewed with the 2nd photo below it.)


Armenian phenotype prior to Russian assimilation was very close to several Iranian phenotypes:


Iranian-Armenian Girl Scout - Could easily pass as an Iranian.




Can you guess who is 100% Armenian and who is Persian-Armenian?


Would you consider the gentleman below to be Armenian? Why or Why Not?

[Persopolis]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Armenia is the place where this danger [assimilation] doesn't exist [!] and where Armenian society can exist unrestricted.

Armenians tend to be very insular.

Where did you say that bridge was that you were going to sell me?



CONSOLIDATED RESPONSES HERE:


Well you don't like what anthropologists say. According to you, "he's one man just giving his opinion," and you're not?

V

stop this BS, the words of one anthropologist doesn't mean much because he's just one man giving his opinion ....

... from some blog?

It is from the Caucasus Research Resource Centers, titled: "SOCIAL SCIENCE SNAPSHOTS, REMARKS, OBSERVATIONS, DATA FROM THE SOUTH CAUCASUS." Entire libraries are published online these days - including studies. But I am sure you knew that.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Fexw7fFeQSYJ:crrc-caucasus.blogspot.com/2010/10/forbidden-love-attitudes-toward.html+russian+armenian+intermarriage&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

So if Armenians are Iranian, is it also correct to say that Iranians are Armenoids?

It's a 2 way street - genes flow both ways.

No Iranian will go through what you are doing to prove that Armenians are of "Persian stock"....Fck you dude.

I didn't say you in particular - your ancestry might be different.

(E.g., “J'ewish conversions to Christianity in Armenia have increased in recent years due to high rates of intermarriage.” http://www.ncsj.org/Armenia.shtml)

You will further note that though your buddy flip-flops on his positions - he admits that today there are, in his words, "many, many" incidents of mixing between Iranians and Armenians -- just imagine what it was like prior to religious barriers.

V

... Many, many Iranian men come to Armenia especially during summer to take advantage of ... our girls. ... Why do we embrace them in open hands and why do we let them take our women?

Eddo, first Mos flip-flops then you flip-flop -- it's clear that Iranians and Armenians intermixed, even based on the two individuals who try hardest to deny that: You and Mos.

V

Iranian Armenians only mixed with other Armenians (past, present, future).

We have however mixed to a small degree with our Persian "Brothers" in the past....Persian girls steal Armenian hearts.

Armenians tend to be very insular.

V

When a nation of 3 million people has a minister assigned to monitor "threat of assimilation" and notes an "extensive number of mixed marriages" - I would suggest that you are telling yourself fairy tales.

RA Deputy Diaspora Minister Stepan Petrosyan stated: Latin America’s Armenian community is under the threat of assimilation. With extensive number of mixed marriages, 70% of Armenians are not involved in the life of local community.

http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/49795/Latin_Americas_Armenian_community_under_threat_of_assimilation

That is the opposite of Armenian assimilation, having other people taking the Armenian identity.

Yes, yes, yes ... you're starting to understand. Armenia decided to become a Soviet Republic, and as a result there are "Armenians" in Armenia that are only partially or not at all Armenian from the intermixing of a tiny population with other people from the Soviet Republics. Focus on how you suggested that people take on the "Armenian Identity" and that is supposedly the opposite of Assimilation -- it will take you a while to see the irony.

Read about intermarriage with Persians in post #1 and #15 and remember that started in antiquity proximate to the the time when "Armenians" started calling themselves "Armenians."

shah habas of iran exiled about a million Armenians to iran in order to have the Armenians teach the iranians morals, culture and many other things. He gave everything to the Armenians so they would live in a good life. But those Armenians wanted to go back to Armenia, were our church is. ... THIS IS THE REASON WHY MANY IRANIANS HAVE "IAN" ADDED TO THEIR LAST NAMES, Because if you have an "ian" in the end of your last name, you are also seen as a person of morals, so you are treated highly. This might be the reason why persopolis wants Armenians to be iranian so badly, because we are treated higher than he is

I think you are referring to Shah "Abbas" (not 'habas' - emphasis on your small letters ... ok) and the official armenian Government account is that Shah Abbas moved armenians to the interior of Iran "to create a no-man's land in the path of the Ottoman advance" -- he didn't want you to die or he he would have done to you what he did to the Ottomans (put them under a Katchkar); instead he built you a city in Iran. But thank you for your astute knowledge of history and appreciation towards a man that prevented your extinction; it's important for Iranians to learn these things. You also have an interesting theory on why Iranians have "ian" added to their names. However, as to "teaching Iranians morals" - I can assure you that there are records of Iranians establishing rules of morality long before "shah habas" [sic] moved Armenians out of the way of the Ottoman army - you may have heard of the Cyrus Cylinder (6th century BC) or the Avesta - it's universally accepted that Iran was one of the most literate societies and you may wish to consider that rules of morality also were taught in accordance with varying religious practices over the centuries. Nevertheless, thank you for your wise counsel regarding history - Is that the Turkish method that you follow? Also Shah Abbas relocated thousands of Armenians not "a million."

my family tree that goes back to 400 years when my grandparents were exiled to iran ... shah habas of iran exiled about a million Armenians to have the Armenians teach ... culture and many other things.

And in light of this "teaching" experience what would be the reason you are semi-literate in Persian and English? شاه عباس = Shah Abbas not "habas."

Good post.

Yeah, it was a real "good post" - it would cause you to fail a basic high school history exam. Don't worry nobody will get the impression that you praise "facts" from a position of bias that can later be shown you do not have rudimentary knowledge of.

... "in this video Armen Ayvazyan ... says that intermarrages/rapes of Armenians were very rare ... and those babies that were not Armenian were being destroyed."

I don''t think intermarriage and rape are in the same category. Armenia was the easiest way to try to get into Iran and we know that Turkish tribes and Arab invaders sacked Armenia a number of times (and their practices are fairly well-documented). So, I think he's fooling himself and I'd doubt his position can withstand serious debate. I'm not sure "destroying babies" is a part of traditional Armenian culture (it would likely cause your women to flee into the arms of other men). If he's correct, I shudder to think what the implications are for recognition of the Armenian Genocide.

[Persopolis]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Stopping posting in Persian or any other language

Eddo wrote to me in Persian and wanted to know if I can speak Persian (let's just call it the 'B-e-g-l-a-r-i-a-n Principle' - I track the people that track you.) Incidentally, some Armenians speak better Persian than Armenian. Nevertheless, I will translate the quotation by the Armenian anthropologist at the turn of the last century for you - it's from a time before Armenian-SSR started mixing with the Soviet gene pool. The Armenian anthropologist stated: "In Iran and abroad I have viewed the facial structures and appearances of Armenians and they are distinctly Persian." You will note the photograph from 1895 supports his findings.

From the 19th century Persian influence has shrunk almost to zero thanks to Russian conquest of the region, you can see that in the fact that more Armenians live in Russia, visit Russia and speak Russian then live in Iran, visit Iran or speak Persian.

Exactly. However, that occurred at middle to the end of the 19th century (start of the 1900s = 20th century) as people gradually adapted to Russian influence, which means that Iranian-Armenians (some of the oldest Armenians) were not assimilated by Bolshevism and the gene pool from the various Soviet Republics. The Russian/Bolshevik influence is completely alien to traditional (ancient) Armenian culture and genetics.

Even today a majority of Armenians intermix: “The one surprising exception is a narrow majority of Armenians – 51%—approve of Armenian women marrying Russians.”
(Statistical Study: Forbidden Love: Attitudes Toward Interethnic Marriage in the South Caucasus: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com )


* * *

I hope you can provide some sources ... I mean sources that can be used for a scientific paper.

Photographs are scientific: You mean if Turks say the photos of the Armenian Genocide are not scientific that will be a response you and other Armenians will accept?

Physical Anthropology in the Forensic Sciences uses photographic evidence and is a part of the scientific method. However, I also did provide scientific research: look for my posts regarding the shared ancestry of Iranians and Armenians from several departments of genetics, anthropology, sociology, and from Armenian historians.

* * *

... how many marriages can there be between muslims and non-muslims?

Last time I checked marriage was NOT a prerequisite for conduct that leads to child-bearing - the widespread use of commercially available contraception is a modern phenomenon and historically abortion was far more taboo when Iranians & Armenians were making babies. Last time I checked Iranian and Armenian intermixing took place for centuries (= a very, very, very long time) BEFORE Christianity or Islam even existed. Nevertheless, it also took place afterwards.

* * *

The Soviet union was created in the 20th century...

Yes it was ... but the Russians took over Armenia in the 19th century (1828) and individuals that provided the intellectual fodder for the early the Bolshevik movement existed in the 19th century - Bolsheviks came to power in the 20th century.

* * *

So should i now start posting Iranian porn or what?

I didn't actually post porn, but I did show you were it was posted to rebut the nonsense that Armenians ONLY carry on sexual relationships with Armenians. And if you are referring to videos concerning prostitution, your buddy Mos was posting that type content years before I got to this forum ... cry me a river.

Mos also has no problems pointing out that Aliyev (the President of Azerbaijan) looks Armenian, but as I pointed out to him the Azerbaijani gene pool underwent a similar genetic modification as the one in Armenia-SSR. If you don't see phenotypes like Aliyev's in Iran, I suggest to trace your ancestry to elsewhere in the Caucusus ... The Khazars, Huns, Turks, Tatars were particularly effective at raping ... so I am not sure marriage is a prerequisite for anything.

V
V

no, illham aliyev could pass as an Armenian actually.

* * *

Do you think it is normal that a person gets executed for owning a porn website?

I don't think it's "normal" to "own a porn website" (for me and the Iranian government it's an oxymoron). The real point is that it is commonly "normal" (to use your phrase) in Yerevan to run porn sites publishing a number of videos showing Armenians sexually cavorting with others ethnic groups from the Caucasus. Many of those sexual encounters result in kids being born (see quote regarding sale of Armenian women by Armenians and Russians to places like Dubai.) When your (Armenia's) population is tiny (3 million) it doesn't take much to alter the gene pool.

* * *

Some Iranian-Armenians I have seen look more Iranian than Armenian. It is clear there was some intermixing over the centuries.

I appreciate the honesty.

Armenians and Iranians are the closest related people.

I appreciate the candor - Iranian-Armenians do not have to hide their family connections; despite family pressure or religious superstitions, etc.

Of cours Persians are closest nation to us out there

I agree with you.

I asked you what is your real objective here in PM and didn't get an answer.

One of them is honesty about the family lineage of others.

V
V

Iranian Armenians only mixed with other Armenians (past, present, future).

Another is honesty about the type of attitudes that can cause people to forget their family roots.

V
V

...if I married a Perisan or non-Armenian women, me being the father, I would force Armenian identity.

“Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik forever” ~ “Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism” - Vladimir Lenin


As the quote from Kanada's footer (above) correctly indicates, it wasn't Iranian-Armenians that were the subjects of Bolshevism - it was the small population of Armenians in Yervan and the surrounding villages that were at a minimum culturally assimilated. Yet the message coming out of Yerevan is that wants to protect against "assimilation" - but as the Lenin quote indicates, it was Armenia-SSR who was assimilated in ways Iranian-Armenians were not (and in ways that have nothing to do with "traditional" Armenian culture or the gene pool).

* * *

Just so everybody is clear>> The Armenian Church in Iran (and many other countries) will NOT marry an Armenian to a different Christian let alone a Muslim.

1. Marriage has nothing to do with child-bearing.

2. The Armenian Church didn't even exist during centuries that Iranians and Armenians freely intermarried. Nor can the Holy Spirit bless-away DNA -- the genetic instructions passed on from one Armenian generation to the next for centuries. Armenians started acquiring Persian DNA proximate to the time they started calling themselves "Armenians" -- and that continued freely for centuries.

3. If the Church won't marry "Armenians" in Iran with other Iranians -- it's simply causing inbreeding of one population of Iranians -- not erasing their DNA.

4. During the Shah's time you could also freely change religions back-n-forth.


Armenians started intermarrying with Persians roughly from a period dating to the start of their existence as a people: “[T]he Persians and Armenians began a 200 year wary co-existence, sharing culture and royal blood ties through intermarriage.”

(See Encylopedia of Religion and Ethics: noting Armenians early intermarriage with Persians; see Persian and Hellenistic Armenia, The Achaemenids, Orontids and Macedonians: http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com )

It's implausible to suggest that though Armenian Kings intermarried with Persians, their subjects didn't - or that it was somehow "taboo." To the contrary, it seems to have gotten the Royal Seal of approval.
* * *

...in the whole city of Abadan there were 4 such marriages (this about 40 years ago during Shah's time according to my dear Aunti which I talk to few days back)

Abadan has not been the most populous Armenian city in Iran. Centuries before your Aunt was born, Armenians acquired Persian DNA. If your Aunt only met one Chinese person in her lifetime, it doesn't mean a billion Chinese people don't exist. Conversion to religion has nothing to do with genetics/family roots.

* * *

this is during Shah's time, let alone now.

In the Shah's time, and his father's, you could marry whomever you wanted -- there was separation between Church and State. During the last thirty years, religious laws started requiring a newlywed to convert, but never prohibited marriage. During the Shah's time people had many civil weddings outside the country.

* * *

...thanks to Russian conquest of the region.

It's up to you if you want to "thank" Russians for conquering Armenia, losing 3/4 of its land, failing to stop the Armenian Genocide ... and the other lovely things that went along with it. But please don't waste your life blaming Iran for that. And with attitudes that have been permitted to flourish here against Iranians, it's probably a bad idea to run to Iran for help the next time it happens.

Do you know how many Armenians were sent to Sibera, executed, relocated, and "nationalized" by Russia over the last 100 years? I'll make you a list later.

* * *

Trafficking happens from every country ....

Yes it does - with the exception that if someone does that in or from Iran, they have lost their right to live or return to Iran. The issue was whether assimilation of Armenians is going on in Yerevan (Armenia) - you only have 3 million people while widespread assimilation is going on with other populations. It's a myth that Iranian-Armenians can avoid genetic or cultural assimilation by moving to Armenia. Armenia is already far more assimilated.

"Armenia is primarily a source country for women and girls trafficked to the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Turkey for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation. Armenian men and women are trafficked to Russia for the purpose of forced labor. NGOs reported that Armenian women were also trafficked to Turkey for the purpose of forced labor. Women from Ukraine and Russia are trafficked to Armenia for the purpose of forced labor. Victims trafficked to the UAE usually fly to Dubai from Yerevan or via cities in Russia; the trafficking route to Turkey is generally via bus through Georgia. A small number of Armenian girls and boys are trafficked internally for purposes of commercial sexual exploitation and forced begging."

(U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009.)



“ The opposition Armenian National Congress has issued a statement, referring to the recent WikiLeaks disclosure on the situation with human trafficking in Armenia. "This document gives appalling details, dwelling on the phenomenon of child molestation as well," the statement goes on saying. According to the ANC acivists, authortieis are to blame for the social depreciation and extreme poverty forcing many parents to send their children abroad for prostitution.

They further note that the document was elaborated based on the studies of the US Embassy in Yerevan and an interview with Armenian Prosecutor General Aghvan Hovsepyan. The leaked cable issued by the WikiLeaks accused the prosecutor general of supporting trafficking and porn industry in Armenia. It claimed that the Armenian president and the National Assembly's failure to take urgent measures to fire Hovsepyan demonstrate that traffikcing and porn business are supported on the state level in Armenia.”

http://www.tert.am/en/news/2011/02/11/traffickinganc/

I give you an example. in the whole city of Abadan there were 4 such marriages ... according to my dear Aunti which I talk to few days back.

Kiss your Aunt - tell her she's wrong. And tell her that swimming after eating doesn't give stomachaches either.



A little Rough Math & Extrapolation:

2,000 [fn 1] years ago the world’s total population was about 300 million – today it’s about 7 billion. In other words, during the time Persians and Armenians started intermarrying the world’s population was 2,333 times smaller. If you consider the population of Armenia today (about 3 million) and you reduce it to the time-periods in history when Persians and Armenians started intermarrying, you see that Armenians were a small group. Using my rough numbers one can extrapolate that all of Armenia would have had something like 1,285 people 2,000 years ago – at most it was just a little village. For the sake of Argument let’s overestimate and pretend Armenia had 20,000 people 2,000 years ago. Nevertheless, do you know how quickly intermarriage for centuries with Persians (a much more populous group) would have become part of the Armenian genetic family tree? Very quickly. Now consider that this intermarriage went on for centuries; that Armenia was a part of Persia; that the Armenian Kings came from Persian ancestry; and in the oldest pictures of Armenians more than 2,000 years old, Armenians look like Iranians. There’s only one conclusion one can draw.

[fn 1] Armenians and Persians go back much further than 2,000 years.

The real question for me is where does the denial of identity come from? Stated differently: What was the catalyst for the political manipulation of beliefs about family ancestry, parentage, cultural origin, nationality, and tribal affiliation? Is it from the establishment differing religions?

[Eddo211]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

Just so everybody is clear>> The Armenian Church in Iran (and many other countries) will NOT marry an Armenian to a different Christian let alone a Muslim. The Iranian he or She who wishes to marry an Armenian must convert and the kids must grow up as Armenians (usually the Armenian parent to be will demand that before marriage).
An Armenian marrying say an Iranian Muslim garantees that the kids will grow up as none Armenians.

Persopolis:
I give you an example. in the whole city of Abadan there were 4 such marriages (this about 40 years ago during Shah's time according to my dear Aunti which I talk to few days back).....75% of that were man who converted to Christianity and grew up their kids as Armenians, the other 25% had to go to a say a differen church....an American church (in this case) to marry, or the Armenian guy or gal had to convert since Islamic laws requires it as well, this is during Shah's time, let alone now.

[Mos]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

There is always a lag between policy and effect. As for Persepolis, man.... can you write, lol. I'm surprise Karo had the patience to reply

Who care about how much he writes, what matters is the quality of it. Always, quality over quantity.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

I'm getting weary of this Persepolis guy, as he thinks he can tell Armenians what's good and bad for us, and apparently knows everything about our people and history.

@Kanadahye, something being suppressed from a top-down level doesn't necessarily mean it's a natural period of recess.

There is always a lag between policy and effect. As for Persepolis, man.... can you write, lol. I'm surprise Karo had the patience to reply



Speaking of P0rn.... some Parliamentary law maker who was involved in making laws against p0rn in Indonesia was caught watching p0rn on his tablet computer... in Parliament!



http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/show-polit...arliament.html

At least Armenians aren't hypocrites.... we'll watch p0rn and admit we watch p0rn




The 28th branch of the Revolutionary Court has sentenced Saeed Malekpour to death for Moharebeh (waging war against God) and corrupting the earth.

RAHANA: Malekpour’s wife, Fatemeh Eftekhari, stated that he has been served with the verdict in the Evin Prison on Saturday.

His death sentence has been issued for cyber crimes. He had been held in prison limbo for the past 2 years.

Previously, in a letter to the Head of the Judiciary, his wife had stated that she had found out that Malekpour will be sentenced to death after a conversation Malekpour’s lawyer has had with Judge Moghiseh. She had mentioned that he has made false confessions under torture after being held in solitary confinement for a year. She had also stated that the trial was only 15 minutes long which shows that the verdict had been issued without an opportunity for Malekpour to present his defense.

Vahid Asghari is a co-defendant in this case who may also receive a death sentence. He has been held in temporary detention for months.

In a television show by the name of “Shock” which was aired 2 years ago, Judge Jafari had stated that they will be sentenced to death.

The reality shows in Iran seem so much more interesting.................

http://www.rahana.org/en/?p=8244

[Mos]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

I'm getting weary of this Persepolis guy, as he thinks he can tell Armenians what's good and bad for us, and apparently knows everything about our people and history.

@Kanadahye, something being suppressed from a top-down level doesn't necessarily mean it's a natural period of recess.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Are Iranian-Armenians Iranian? What is Armenian Assimilation?

They haven't been constant, there was periods of excess, periods of recess and periods of prohibition . Empires rise and fall.

By constant I meant that they always existed and always will, like now in most countries prostitution is illegal but you know for sure in every country you'll find some.