Regional geopolitics

[Haykakan]

Re: Regional geopolitics

Yes Hakob we indeed are a byproduct of history and circumstances and so is our character. It is not possible to separate the two. As for Russian influence I will say that it was thanks to such influence that we developed the will to stand up to the turks. Under Czarist Russia Armenia was being liberated and our people were learning to fight to stand up for themselves and to dare about dreaming of things like nationhood and independence. All of that was dashed thanks to the Bolshevik revolution which was 100% sponcered by western powers like Germany. Yet even here in communism we Armenians learned much from Russians and gained much. We Armenians prove yet again our profound stubbornness and refuse to learn from history. We spit on Russia which is the only reason we are still around as a country and we rush to embrace the west which has always and is still trying to erase us off the map. You can see it in post after post like the one from Londontsi up above. Praising democracy as if it will solve our problems while ignoring all the damage caused by democracies to humanity. We are fools, we are hard working, tough fighting, cultured idiots who see only what others want us to see and ignore reality. We would rather compare clothing then to seek the truth, we would rather think of ways to put each other down rather then ways to support one another, we rather live as slaves to any foreign power in awe of its power and glory rather then build a nation for ourselves because we fear being labeled "totalitarian". No Democracy will not fix this, no blaming muslims, Russians, kurds, plague...will not help. I suggest forming a national conscience and I do not give a flying whatever what you want to call it so long as it involves nation building. The diaspora is a dead end, only a nation we want to live in is the solution to our problems but such a thing takes work, dedication, sacrifice..all the qualities we Armenians already possess but will only use them to build other nations but never our own.

[Artsakh]

Re: Regional geopolitics

Yes Hakob we indeed are a byproduct of history and circumstances and so is our character. It is not possible to separate the two. As for Russian influence I will say that it was thanks to such influence that we developed the will to stand up to the turks. ..

I do not accept that notion. There was no Russia or any other power when we gave the Persians the fight of their lives during the battle of Avarayr. There was no Russia or any other power when Armenians pushed the Turks back during the life and death battle of Sardarabat. There was Russia when Armenians threw the Red Army out of our lands and established Lerna Hayastan. If anything, Russia shifted our focus and limited resources from simultaneous wars with the Turks and Azeris. And if you ask a lot of freedom fighters from the Artsakh liberation war, they'll tell you a lot of the toughest battles were not against Turks, but against Russian soldiers. Let's not forget about operation ring and the depopulation of Armenian villages with the direct role of Moscow. Let's not forget about Chechen Militants, including the notorious Samil Basayev. Let's not forget about Afghan mujaaheen. The odd's were against us--we prevailed. And it was thanks to no one but ourselves.

Yes, there is a lot to be gained from our current relationship with Russia. But that is beside the point. Your way of thinking is completely inaccurate.

[Armynia]

Re: Regional geopolitics

I do not accept that notion. There was no Russia or any other power when we gave the Persians the fight of their lives during the battle of Avarayr. There was no Russia or any other power when Armenians pushed the Turks back during the life and death battle of Sardarabat. There was Russia when Armenians threw the Red Army out of our lands and established Lerna Hayastan. If anything, Russia shifted our focus and limited resources from simultaneous wars with the Turks and Azeris. And if you ask a lot of freedom fighters from the Artsakh liberation war, they'll tell you a lot of the toughest battles were not against Turks, but against Russian soldiers. Let's not forget about operation ring and the depopulation of Armenian villages with the direct role of Moscow. Let's not forget about Chechen Militants, including the notorious Samil Basayev. Let's not forget about Afghan mujaaheen. The odd's were against us--we prevailed. And it was thanks to no one but ourselves.

Yes, there is a lot to be gained from our current relationship with Russia. But that is beside the point. Your way of thinking is completely inaccurate.

Agree! Thank you very much Artsakh

[Haykakan]

Re: Regional geopolitics

I do not accept that notion. There was no Russia or any other power when we gave the Persians the fight of their lives during the battle of Avarayr. There was no Russia or any other power when Armenians pushed the Turks back during the life and death battle of Sardarabat. There was Russia when Armenians threw the Red Army out of our lands and established Lerna Hayastan. If anything, Russia shifted our focus and limited resources from simultaneous wars with the Turks and Azeris. And if you ask a lot of freedom fighters from the Artsakh liberation war, they'll tell you a lot of the toughest battles were not against Turks, but against Russian soldiers. Let's not forget about operation ring and the depopulation of Armenian villages with the direct role of Moscow. Let's not forget about Chechen Militants, including the notorious Samil Basayev. Let's not forget about Afghan mujaaheen. The odd's were against us--we prevailed. And it was thanks to no one but ourselves.

Yes, there is a lot to be gained from our current relationship with Russia. But that is beside the point. Your way of thinking is completely inaccurate.

That is just it Arty. We have four thousand years of history and you do not even need all of the fingers on your one hand to count our magnanimous victories(Avarair we lost btw). I do not doubt our ability to fight as I said earlier but I very much doubt our willingness to unite and support one another. Kharabagh is a victory but united even here we were not as a coupe had to be executed to gain that victory since western backed LTP was ready to concede kharabagh. Sardarabad we were not united either as our greatest general of all time refused to participate. Don't you people get it already..the west wants us dead, like how many times do they have to prove that so you get it through your thick skulls? As for Russia where do you suppose we would be if not for Russia? Answer that question thruthfully and then you will understand what Russia means to us.

[lampron]

Re: Regional geopolitics

That is just it Arty. We have four thousand years of history and you do not even need all of the fingers on your one hand to count our magnanimous victories(Avarair we lost btw). I do not doubt our ability to fight as I said earlier but I very much doubt our willingness to unite and support one another. Kharabagh is a victory but united even here we were not as a coupe had to be executed to gain that victory since western backed LTP was ready to concede kharabagh. Sardarabad we were not united either as our greatest general of all time refused to participate. Don't you people get it already..the west wants us dead, like how many times do they have to prove that so you get it through your thick skulls? As for Russia where do you suppose we would be if not for Russia? Answer that question thruthfully and then you will understand what Russia means to us.

The west did not mind if Armenia disappeared in 1920. The Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 between the west and Turkey did not even mention the word Armenia.
In 1993 a Russian general flew into Yerevan to tell the Turks that if they crossed the border there would be World War 3.
How would Armenians have achieved victory in Karabakh if Turkey had invaded? NATO was silent when Turkish troops fired into Armenia.Turkish warplanes were flying within 100 meters of the Armenia-Turkey border in 1993

[Hakob]

Re: Regional geopolitics

Q

That is just it Arty. We have four thousand years of history and you do not even need all of the fingers on your one hand to count our magnanimous victories(Avarair we lost btw). I do not doubt our ability to fight as I said earlier but I very much doubt our willingness to unite and support one another. Kharabagh is a victory but united even here we were not as a coupe had to be executed to gain that victory since western backed LTP was ready to concede kharabagh. Sardarabad we were not united either as our greatest general of all time refused to participate. Don't you people get it already..the west wants us dead, like how many times do they have to prove that so you get it through your thick skulls? As for Russia where do you suppose we would be if not for Russia? Answer that question thruthfully and then you will understand what Russia means to us.

Haykakan jan, don't get heated up with verbal abuse.
I don't think that Russians have lost their sleep to save and protect us. It is very true and abvious for all to see that the only piece of Armenia left was under Russian formerly occupied territory. If anybody states otherwise, I disagree and have argued for it many times in this forum.
But it's true that it is because of our continued and unending quest for freedom and then plus Russian geopolitical plans that we survived.
Now it would not matter for Russians if there was us or Martians that situated in those lands, as long as were cooperating with them in helping in advance into territory.
It is also true that if we had not so resiliently resisted Turks and Persians and fought so bravery for what we wanted, uniting under our cause, that Russians or anybody would abandon us in a second.
Lot of the best fighters in those wars, not just the generals or marshals like Suvorov, were us, fighting for our nation and religion very United.
What we had or have with Russians has nothing to do with how United or not we are. Do not mix two.
When anybody speaks about our past and future, do not tie it with Russia and stop there. Russia is only a factor, not the entire story.
I appreciate very much our relation with Russians, but I refuse to blind myself with that as the only major factor.
and more importantly start thinking of our future being out of our hands or our efforts and tied only with Russia.
That is the biggest cull the sack we can make for our selfs for our future.
You cannot forget those millions of us that have traveled whole west, north and everywhere, got educated, funded and came back to keep the light of our nation burning in those lands for past centuries.
Do not forget all the dedicated millions that kept returning to the inferno, leaving their accomplished lives elsewhere just for the sake of our nation. (Millions, you will get if you see the picture in at least past 1500 years).
You forget that our biggest battles have been fought not on the battlefields but in politics and culture.
If you put all together, than it is abvious that much more has depended from our selfs that we have incredibly managed very well.
I refuse to accept Russophobia, but also refuse to accept russophilia in such level that I start hating and denying achievements and complete characters of my nation.

[lampron]

Re: Regional geopolitics

Haykakan jan, don't get heated up with verbal abuse.
I don't think that Russians have lost their sleep to save and protect us. It is very true and abvious for all to see that the only piece of Armenia left was under Russian formerly occupied territory. If anybody states otherwise, I disagree and have argued for it many times in this forum.
But it's true that it is because of our continued and unending quest for freedom and then plus Russian geopolitical plans that we survived.
Now it would not matter for Russians if there was us or Martians that situated in those lands, as long as were cooperating with them in helping in advance into territory.
It is also true that if we had not so resiliently resisted Turks and Persians and fought so bravery for what we wanted, uniting under our cause, that Russians or anybody would abandon us in a second.

As Ara Baliozian has stated many times, after many centuries of slavery 95% of Armenians and most Armenian leaders do not have confidence in themselves

They rely on an external power for survival. Russia as the most immediate neighbor, which has an interest in Armenia from a geopolitical standpoint, which created the 'Armenian district' in 1828 on territory where Armenian were a minority is the most obvious power. Look at history

In 1919 Armenian leaders depended 100% on the French to build a state in Kilikya. The moment the French changed sides , Kilikya was finished

In 1920 Armenia was celebrating the Treaty of Sevres . The moment the "allies" started supporting Kemal, Kars, Ardahan, Igdir, Surmalu, Alexandropol...(and almost yerevan) were lost. Which brave fights do you have in mind?

[Haykakan]

Re: Regional geopolitics

Haykakan jan, don't get heated up with verbal abuse.
I don't think that Russians have lost their sleep to save and protect us. It is very true and abvious for all to see that the only piece of Armenia left was under Russian formerly occupied territory. If anybody states otherwise, I disagree and have argued for it many times in this forum.
But it's true that it is because of Russian geopolitical plans that we survived.
Now it would not matter for Russians if there was us or Martians that situated in those lands, were cooperating with them in helping in advance into territory.
It is also true that if we had not so resiliently resisted Turks and Persians and fought so bravery for what we wanted, uniting under our cause, that Russians or anybody would abandon us in a second.
Lot of the best fighters in those wars, not just the generals or marshals like Suvorov, were us, fighting for our nation and religion very United.
What we had or have with Russians has nothing to do with how United or not we are. Do not mix two.
When anybody speaks about our past and future, do not tie it with Russia and stop there. Russia is only a factor, not the entire story.
I appreciate very much our relation with Russians, but I refuse to blind myself with that as the only major factor.
and more importantly start thinking of our future being out of our hands or our efforts and tied only with Russia.
That is the biggest cull the sack we can make for our selfs for our future.
You cannot forget those millions of us that have traveled whole west, north and everywhere, got educated, funded and came back to keep the light of our nation burning in those lands for past centuries.
Do not forget all the dedicated millions that kept returning to the inferno, leaving their accomplished lives elsewhere just for the sake of our nation.
You forget that our biggest battles have been fought not on the battlefields but in politics and culture.
If you put all together, than it is abvious that much more has depended from our selfs that we have incredibly managed very well.
I refuse to accept Russophobia, but also refuse to accept russophilia in such level that I start hating and denying achievements and complete characters of my nation.

I see nothing here to disagree with except the "millions that kept returning" part and that "we managed very well". Whatever number actually helped many more did nothing , cared nothing, or just did what most dashnaks do-talk big and do nothing.I to want us to pursue our national interests but most people do not seem to understand what those interests are. Just look at the garbage being spewed by the likes of Vrej1915. These people either out of ignorance, spite or for being paid agents are working hard to kill Armenia and our people are falling for this crap. By talking only about the bad and shunning the good they create the atmosphere of hopelessness which in reality is not accurate at all. This sends our people out of the homeland and prevents diasporans from entering it. Diasporans are affected by this bs propaganda as much as hyastantsis. We have people actively cutting the throat of our nation and most of us are lending a hand to our own suicide instead of fighting it. I know the diaspora, I have lived in it for many decades. Very few of the diasporans actually do anything helpful at all. Just staying Armenian is hard enough and helping Armenia well it is an afterthought. I have told plenty examples and can tell plenty more but we as a people are sick. Our sickness is we think we are better then we are, we overestimate ourselves and easily become manipulated by those who know our weakness and pray upon it. They have done this over and over again and are trying to do it now.
"Managed well" you say but I disagree. People revolt and go to war to improve their condition but that is not what is happening. All these years of independence and we still have yet to reach the living standards of soviet days. This is not managing well, this is regression and we have the depopulation of our nation to show for it. You see Hakob, even a man like yourself who considers himself rational and hayrenaser is blinded to the reality at hand and prefers to see millions of things that are not there. Wether it is Hayastan, or our diaspora, the west has many times emphatically stated it wants us dead and buried while Russia has accepted the genocide and teaches it in her schools. America and London, and Israel gave us the finger at our centennial. Russia has stopped the turk from invading Armenia numerous times. You see the word balance does not represent the reality here. How would you like it if you stuck up for me numerous times and in return I told you I am leading a balanced policy when it comes to you and this other ahole who has been trying to kill me for years. What would you think of me then?

[lampron]

Re: Regional geopolitics

I see nothing here to disagree with except the "millions that kept returning" part and that "we managed very well". Whatever number actually helped many more did nothing , cared nothing, or just did what most dashnaks do-talk big and do nothing.I to want us to pursue our national interests but most people do not seem to understand what those interests are. Just look at the garbage being spewed by the likes of Vrej1915. These people either out of ignorance, spite or for being paid agents are working hard to kill Armenia and our people are falling for this crap. By talking only about the bad and shunning the good they create the atmosphere of hopelessness which in reality is not accurate at all. This sends our people out of the homeland and prevents diasporans from entering it. Diasporans are affected by this bs propaganda as much as hyastantsis. We have people actively cutting the throat of our nation and most of us are lending a hand to our own suicide instead of fighting it. I know the diaspora, I have lived in it for many decades. Very few of the diasporans actually do anything helpful at all. Just staying Armenian is hard enough and helping Armenia well it is an afterthought. I have told plenty examples and can tell plenty more but we as a people are sick. Our sickness is we think we are better then we are, we overestimate ourselves and easily become manipulated by those who know our weakness and pray upon it. They have done this over and over again and are trying to do it now.
"Managed well" you say but I disagree. People revolt and go to war to improve their condition but that is not what is happening. All these years of independence and we still have yet to reach the living standards of soviet days. This is not managing well, this is regression and we have the depopulation of our nation to show for it. You see Hakob, even a man like yourself who considers himself rational and hayrenaser is blinded to the reality at hand and prefers to see millions of things that are not there. Wether it is Hayastan, or our diaspora, the west has many times emphatically stated it wants us dead and buried while Russia has accepted the genocide and teaches it in her schools. America and London, and Israel gave us the finger at our centennial. Russia has stopped the turk from invading Armenia numerous times. You see the word balance does not represent the reality here. How would you like it if you stuck up for me numerous times and in return I told you I am leading a balanced policy when it comes to you and this other ahole who has been trying to kill me for years. What would you think of me then?

Russians know well (even if many Armenians have forgotten) that in 1828, by naming the Iranian Khanates of Yerevan and Nakhichevan as the ''Armenian district", the start was made of a future Armenian state
No "Armenia" had existed on the map since 1375
100,000 Armenians were able to move from Iran and Ottoman empire, increasing the Armenian presence

The many foreign NGOs preaching Russophobia can mean disaster. Based on imagined support from the west which has time again shown itself to be unreliable

[Armynia]

Re: Regional geopolitics

As for Russia where do you suppose we would be if not for Russia? Answer that question truthfully and then you will understand what Russia means to us.

No........Question is what Russia means for you?????????

For vassals Russia is brother, for Patriots Just another country!