Politics in Hayastan

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Typical confused individual. Cannot differentiate his a.rse from his elbow.

One minute you say killing oligarchs in the streets like south and central American banana republics
then you have ideas how to avoid civil war.






PS. Criminal and illegal activity should always face the law.
No extrajudicial action or punishment.
I (we) want legal and just Hayrenik.

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You have a strange obsession with building Strawman arguments by taking things out of context. It makes you an awful debater. I never said I backed or supported killing them. I said that it was objectively a better alternative to starting a bloody civil war or killing innocent police officers. And killing them in the streets? What, do you think every shopkeeper is a Mafia don? Its only a few powerful men within the government that solidify the corrupt system in the country. Take them, establish a nationalistic government to prosecute the lower levels and it all falls apart. Putting them in prison would suffice in my opinion.

You resorting to ad hominem attacks shows how desperate and frustrated you have become. If you can't make a morally sound argument, just admit you are wrong. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Our rennouned spy here likes to bring up Ukraine, yes by all means do go see how uncorrupt that country is now and this after going through a bloody revolution which killed many people, caused a great deal of destruction, and gave up anything and everything that country had to the same bankers that made heavty profits from our own genocide and many other misfortunes of people all over the world.

Might as well make this freaking thread a cornfield. There are strawmen all over the place. I spoke of Ukraine, in response to the idea that Armenia would need an armed uprising against the government aka civil war. The Ukrainians did not start a civil war to overthrow the government. They did things through a much more..."non-lethal" way. While many died, that is mainly owed to police incompetence and provocations by Ukrainian fascists. Over a million men and women took part in Euromaidan. Less than 200 died over a period of months of fighting in the streets with riot shields and batons. It was much less bloodier than what our genius londontsi and his senpai Fedayi cosplayers suggested and bid to do.


As for the comments on the size of the police force and the legitimacy of it all. While I understand that the police force is inherently incompetent and riddled with corrupt. I do not think that it is wrong to have a big police force. This may be the point of misunderstanding. I do not back democracy, whatsoever. I support the authoritarian nationalistic model, if I haven't made that clear enough. What I also disagree with is this guilt by association being applied to every officer in the police force. The force is corrupt, so that means every officer and cop must be executed in the streets?


I also agree that what is happening to Seyran Ohanyan and Samvel is obviously Serzh and his regimen strengthening control over the country and armed forces. I have a hard time believing Seyran Ohanyan would do anything to weaken Armenia. The man gave his leg for his nation. You would have to be a morally corrupt nutbag to, after losing your leg for your folk, stabbing them in the back. It doesn't add up. Samvel, maybe I can believe he is corrupt. He obviously has good connections to the criminal underground. I have a hard time believing he owns an Igla.

Some of you are arguing in favor of starting a civil war and wreaking havoc in the country so as to establish rule of law again. That is mental gymnastics 101.

[haydavid]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I support the authoritarian nationalistic model, [/B]

Yeah , while enjoying a great life in the USA , in a democracy.

[Artsakh]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I also agree that what is happening to Seyran Ohanyan and Samvel is obviously Serzh and his regimen strengthening control over the country and armed forces. I have a hard time believing Seyran Ohanyan would do anything to weaken Armenia. The man gave his leg for his nation. You would have to be a morally corrupt nutbag to, after losing your leg for your folk, stabbing them in the back. It doesn't add up. Samvel, maybe I can believe he is corrupt. He obviously has good connections to the criminal underground. I have a hard time believing he owns an Igla.

Some of you are arguing in favor of starting a civil war and wreaking havoc in the country so as to establish rule of law again. That is mental gymnastics 101.

Politics has no logic or reasoning. Didn't Ohanyan at the turn of a switch go from government to oppositionist critic? I personally can't respect that move. Who knows, maybe he's playing opposition.

Here is the same Seyran Ohanyan speaking of Samvel Babyan, who evidently are working together:

Rather than listening to their words, we should let their past work do the speaking. Samvel Babyan, in the realm of military, is one of the greatest strategists and commanders in Armenian history and even world history.

The Azeris directed their request for the cease fire in 1994 directly to Samvel Babayan.

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

.... I never said I backed or supported killing them. I said that it was objectively a better alternative to starting a bloody civil war or killing innocent police officers. And killing them in the streets?

Taking a police station and murdering three police officers while keeping the others hostage, to be precise. There is nothing to justify that no matter what mental gymnastics their admirers like to undertake. Its borderline textbook terrorism.

Killing off the oligarchs who wreak havoc in the nation and its economy would have been a much better alternative to killing three men whose job is to protect citizens.

The worst part of it all is that 20,000 Armenians heeded their call and went out to protest in favor of madmen with guns. Shows how desperate folks are. They are willing to find any sake to protest, as long as its against the government. The leadership should take note.

You seem to suffer from amnesia.

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You seem to suffer from amnesia.

You seem to suffer from a lack of ability to read English. You just proved my point.

It doesn't seem as if you are putting any effort into this anymore. It has become just lazy trolling.


I said:

..... Killing off the oligarchs who wreak havoc in the nation and its economy would have been a much better alternative to killing three men whose job is to protect citizens.

Then you said:

Typical confused individual. Cannot differentiate his a.rse from his elbow.

One minute you say killing oligarchs in the streets like south and central American banana republics
then you have ideas how to avoid civil war

Then I said:

.... I never said I backed or supported killing them. I said that it was objectively a better alternative to starting a bloody civil war or killing innocent police officers. And killing them in the streets?

Memory of a goldfish.

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Politics has no logic or reasoning. Didn't Ohanyan at the turn of a switch go from government to oppositionist critic? I personally can't respect that move. Who knows, maybe he's playing opposition.

Here is the same Seyran Ohanyan speaking of Samvel Babyan, who evidently are working together:

Rather than listening to their words, we should let their past work do the speaking. Samvel Babyan, in the realm of military, is one of the greatest strategists and commanders in Armenian history and even world history.

The Azeris directed their request for the cease fire in 1994 directly to Samvel Babayan.

Politics is literally logic and reason. It is strategy. Politics has no morality, yes. No logic or reason? Thats nonsense. Don't even. What do you think the German word "realpolitik" means? Real - Meaning truth, from French.


At least a hundred Soviet commanders would like to have a word with you as well. He may have been a good commander. Best in the world? Best in Armenian history? Thats fanboyism.

[Lori]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Yeah , while enjoying a great life in the USA , in a democracy.

Eh, I wouldn't call living in a wheelchair amazing. Its not as bad as many think, but I would rather walk around my own house than roll

So living in a "democracy" (Which is the US is not. It is ruled by a Turkish-style deep state of neoconservatives and is deeply internationalist.) makes my opinions and beliefs invalid? Cmon.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

--- there is corruption in USA, (but) it's a prosperous country ---
Prosperous for who ? Sorry, but that's the image put forth but not the reality. How many on welfare? How many below poverty? How many lost everything in the 2008 housing bubble burst ? How many in the penitentiary system ? How many murders per year for how long ? Forgot Kent state university ? Forgot there is more land classified as toxic in USA than all of Hayastan? Forgot the repeated attempts by big business to cover up their culpability for the many terrible deaths and debilitating sickness caused by mining like in 3rd world countries ?

Prosperous ? It's only skin deep. Don't be fooled, USA/England etc --- ARE NOT --- role models to be emulated.
It's one thing for us to speak of our troubles with great concern. It's another thing to extoll USA --- because they have more money (only some).
USA followed by England are the most corrupt entities on our planet.
If we are searching for decency, please don't hold up USA as an example ... That's grossly terrible.

Artashes jan I agree fully to your view of corruption in US. I am not arguing against that.
But it is very wrong to compare.
Any of the points you bring up in US is diffrent and in much worse per capita in Armenia.
Only people living there know, but still they cannot really explain because of diasporans and homelanders have totally diffrent sistems to compare based on history and other conditions.
I can argue to every point you bring, just pick one, but what will that give us?
More land classified as toxic in US? - in Armenia any classification like that was none existent or suppressed in soviet times or forged by government and current governments did not do better. All the ore subtracting businesses belong to powerful people directly tied and bribing the government and prevent or forge any studies or classifications of their operations.
2008 housing? How many families in desirable locations our government has confiscated their homes with promise to repay or give new housing in another locations still wait after many years without pay or housing while their former home locations turned up as grounds for some powerful oligarkh's shopping mall, Hotel etc...
The best some got was deed for apartment unit, but later finding that 2 other deeds were given to same unit to others.
No where to go, no court or ministry to sue. Court will drag your case for many many years, ministry will promise to look into it and you can wait until hell freezes.
You can picket all right, but beware! If you make too much noise than some of family may end up being arrested and put to prison for something like drugs or huliganism.
Then You can protest and sue those cases until hell freeses.
Majority of this wronged people correctly see that best outcome is to move to some other country and build new life much quicker.
A blacksmith friend of mine had a cousin, who had a restaurant in Komitas. A prime business. Came a couple of connected Aperos and offered a fraction of value to buy saying "brother our advice is sell it to us now, it'll be good for you".
He would not. Few weeks later he was beaten up as he was closing at night. He went to police and prosecutor, he had money too and was confident. Was told quietly to leave that business. Then he put it in market to get the full price, got an unknown call threatening to take it from the market or else... Few days later he was found hanging in his business. Police ruled suicide, despite family insisting of otherwise.
Before family came to itself, internal revenue came with papers that he owed obscene amount of taxes.
Restaurant got confiscated, put to action and sold for amount of taxes but fraction of the value to a well connected man(connected to original buyers, or rather their boss). This was at the beginning of Robert Kocharian's term. Family has moved to Europe since then. I don't see clear changes of environment since then.
How many in poverty in Armenia? 60% of population (international standards).
How much the welfare? 40000($80) drams per month on average for families. You either buy food or heat and electricity for your family, if you are unemployed, make a choice.
Etc. etc. etc.
But we should not argue because I AM NOT TAKING US AS A ROLE MODEL.
Simply stating that living conditions are incomparably better here. If There would be those conditions (judicial system, economy, etc.) in Armenia, we all would move there in a heartbit. Not because US has perfect conditions, but because that same conditions could allow us to survive in Armenia and that's enough.

[Artsakh]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Politics is literally logic and reason. It is strategy. Politics has no morality, yes. No logic or reason? Thats nonsense. Don't even. What do you think the German word "realpolitik" means? Real - Meaning truth, from French.


At least a hundred Soviet commanders would like to have a word with you as well. He may have been a good commander. Best in the world? Best in Armenian history? Thats fanboyism.

The "logic" and "reasoning" actors on the political stage do in their heads isn't for us to know about. As observers, we see politicians saying one thing, and doing another, that is beyond reason. For instance, President Serje spoke about Gagik Tsarukyan spoke about him as being an "evil," yet thereafter they were found to attend many occasions together, sitting and walking side by side. Does that make "logical" sense to you? I'm not going to get into other examples, you know exactly what we're talking about.


As for Babayan, by 1992 already he had acquired an international reputation as being an excellent military commander and military organizer. At the age of 28, he had become the most powerful man in the region.

[Hakob]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Babayan has a reputation of not playing by the rules. Ha may have indeed been involved in an assasination attempt.
But also I believe that he is so smart and influential or connected that if he really needed an IGLA, he would not just wrap one in blue cellophane and put it in back of truck.
He could get anything he wants, even a tank or anything in overnight from his connections in army.
He could even get it delivered directly to our president's doorstep.
Maybe that is why he is being arrested, so if after election as an opposition tries to have army take sides.? Or refuse 2008 type orders from HHK?
So, this arrest is very fishy.
I also think that if HHK wins this elections and keeps the old sistem, then it may be better to take out oligarkhs one by one.
Avoid civil war.
Thankfully in Armenia everything rides on individual's click.
If anybody wants to keep mixing his parliament seat with his business ventures and act only for money and robbery and looks like is going to keep his carousel spinning for many more years, then getting killed may motivate others in giving up their self glued parliament seats.