Agriculture

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

Verj, you are making a mistake in thinking that I'm advocating we become shepherds! I did say in my earlier post that this should be left to idiots not us! I was making a reference to Londontsi who wanted Armenian shepherds! However the shepherds in the video were all Armenians complaining about the scarcity of meat and the depleted herds. So like it or not, we do have to do some shepherding work, as I don't think some of these guys in remote locations have much choice at this point in time. Again I don't advocate any toorks in Armenia under any conditions. You should speak with Londontsi on this subject matter, please read a few posts before and you will see that I am not a fan of this!

We lost 90% of our country because of this problem.
The only solution that seems secure: no sheep in the mountains, wich means no nomads in the mountains, wich means no turkish internal threat..; Can't you get it?
With a hundred years of security , nature will recover , and hopefully, if we are able to not cut them (wich is of course an other story), big parts of those pastures will be recovered by forests, as they were originally... (just like what happened in all Western Europe since end XIX cent).

Yes I do know this but I thought that the deforestation mainly came from the Asian Goat not the sheep! You are more versed in this so I will leave the details of this to you. As for nature recovering you might get some vegies to grow but all the wild mountain plants some will never recover as they are very fragile and we may have lost some of this forever.

[Federate]

Re: Agriculture

I'd like to see some thoughts/opinions on Armenia leasing some land in Syunik to Iran for sheep grazing. Meanwhile, here are Iran's arguments.

Iranian Envoy Promotes Armenian Pasture Lease

Sargis Harutyunyan
Հրապարակված է՝ 12.02.2013

Iran’s ambassador to Armenia defended a possible lease by Iranian sheep and cattle breeders of Armenian mountain pastures on Tuesday amid growing concerns voiced by government critics in Yerevan.

Mohammad Reisi insisted that such an arrangement would hugely benefit the Armenian agricultural sector through a drastic increase in livestock exports to the Islamic Republic.

News of the possible lease of pastures in Armenia’s southeastern Syunik province bordering Iran emerged late last year. The Armenian government confirmed preliminary negotiations on the matter between the provincial administration and authorities in Iran’s East Azerbaijan province.

Surik Khachatrian, the Syunik governor, visited East Azerbaijan for further talks last month. An Armenian non-governmental organization publicized afterwards what it called a draft Armenian-Iranian agreement on the long-term pasture lease.

The document prompted serious concerns from environment protection and opposition groups in Yerevan. They warned of its negative ecological, economic and even political consequences for the country. Some critics denounced the very fact of Armenian territory being rented out to a foreign state.

The Armenian government responded to these concerns with assurances that nothing has been agreed yet. It also promised to ensure transparency in the Armenian-Iranian negotiating process.

Ambassador Reisi likewise denied that the two sides have reached a definitive agreement. “If any document is signed it cannot be kept secret and will certainly have to be approved by the parliaments of the two countries,” he told a news conference.


Armenia -- Iranian Ambassador Mohammad Reisi at a press conference in Yerevan. 12Feb2013
Reisi at the same time voiced strong support for the idea of pasture lease. “When I came to Armenia one of the projects proposed by me was to foster cattle raising in Armenia,” he said. “Armenia is an agricultural country and has a great potential for cattle breeding. Unfortunately, the size of its livestock is not sufficient.”

The Armenian Ministry of Agriculture puts the domestic livestock population at roughly 1.35 million. Sheep account for around half of it.

Reisi claimed that the lease sought by the Iranians would help to quickly raise the number of sheep and cattle in Armenia to 7 million. “Armenia can export 2-3 million sheep to Iran each year,” he said.

Armenian sheep exports to Iran have already risen sharply in the last few years. But they reportedly ground to a half last fall due to the tightening of international economic sanctions against Tehran and the resulting sharp depreciation of the Iranian national currency.

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/24900288.html

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

Verj, you are making a mistake in thinking that I'm advocating we become shepherds! I did say in my earlier post that this should be left to idiots not us! I was making a reference to Londontsi who wanted Armenian shepherds! However the shepherds in the video were all Armenians complaining about the scarcity of meat and the depleted herds. So like it or not, we do have to do some shepherding work, as I don't think some of these guys in remote locations have much choice at this point in time. Again I don't advocate any toorks in Armenia under any conditions. You should speak with Londontsi on this subject matter, please read a few posts before and you will see that I am not a fan of this!



Yes I do know this but I thought that the deforestation mainly came from the Asian Goat not the sheep! You are more versed in this so I will leave the details of this to you. As for nature recovering you might get some vegies to grow but all the wild mountain plants some will never recover as they are very fragile and we may have lost some of this forever.

Ok then, let's all stop justifiying or finding excuses for the lease of our lands to Iran, since the guys who will come will not speak persian, but turkish (at best some will speak kurmanji/kurdish)....

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What makes you sure, that those hovivs are not Yezidi?

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As a matter of fact, this is not only against our National interests, but also against the national interests of Iran..; since at the least, it will create enmity between Iran an the Armenian people..
Soon, our guys will have to take the fedayi clothes, and begin to kill and push out those nomads from their mountain slopes... hiding not from the turkish askars , soviet troops or azari omons, but from our Armenian Armed forces, ordered to protect those 'Iranian' gests... is this really what in the interest of either nations??

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

I'd like to see some thoughts/opinions on Armenia leasing some land in Syunik to Iran for sheep grazing. Meanwhile, here are Iran's arguments.

I do see the economic sense in this, but having odars walking on Armenian land is less palatable to me. The choice in my view is very clear, either we stay out of this deal and loose billions of revenue to land that is not being utilized as is. Or we go ahead with this and gulp it. Security at this point in time is not an issue as this is a lease, and not sure from Iran's statement that toorks are coming over to shepherd the animals.

With money we can solve a lot of problems, without money we have to make though choices. The fantasy that we can just do what we want is just that a fantasy. Armenia of old never had this much bare rock, this is something we do need to consider, however if the lands in question are grasslands already then I don't see the great loss in loosing some grass. There has to be a huge amount of economic activity in place before we make decisions on what is and what is not worth doing. At this stage we have a choice to make to do this now and reap the rewards for 15 years and then look back and reflect on the choice. Sadly for more then a 1000 years toorks with their goats/sheep have been terrorizing the land of Armenia down to bare rock. If we magically decide that our environment is getting too burdened by this then we really have to start weeping again as the bulk of the damage has been done already.

Given that I said all this, it still pains me either way, too bad we are not in a better position to do otherwise. Just look at us, we are discussing filthy animals that smell.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

I do see the economic sense in this, but having odars walking on Armenian land is less palatable to me. The choice in my view is very clear, either we stay out of this deal and loose billions of revenue to land that is not being utilized as is. Or we go ahead with this and gulp it. Security at this point in time is not an issue as this is a lease, and not sure from Iran's statement that toorks are coming over to shepherd the animals.

With money we can solve a lot of problems, without money we have to make though choices. The fantasy that we can just do what we want is just that a fantasy. Armenia of old never had this much bare rock, this is something we do need to consider, however if the lands in question are grasslands already then I don't see the great loss in loosing some grass. There has to be a huge amount of economic activity in place before we make decisions on what is and what is not worth doing. At this stage we have a choice to make to do this now and reap the rewards for 15 years and then look back and reflect on the choice. Sadly for more then a 1000 years toorks with their goats/sheep have been terrorizing the land of Armenia down to bare rock. If we magically decide that our environment is getting too burdened by this then we really have to start weeping again as the bulk of the damage has been done already.

Given that I said all this, it still pains me either way, too bad we are not in a better position to do otherwise. Just look at us, we are discussing filthy animals that smell.

Vahram,
Where do you get your billions?
In what currency, AMD?
What's the price of sheep? how many are we talking about? and what's the amount we will receive?
The total according to Liska's deal is 2.5 million USD a year, at the end of the period.
In the beging, there are reductions planned.....

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

“Armenia can export 2-3 million sheep to Iran each year,”

$150 USD per sheep, times 3 million sheep = 450 million USD a year * 15 years = 6.75 Billion USD.

Sadly if you wanted to count in AMD the price is in the Trillions.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

$150 USD per sheep, times 3 million sheep = 450 million USD a year * 15 years = 6.75 Billion USD.

Sadly if you wanted to count in AMD the price is in the Trillions.

I see, this is only wishful counting.
We will never manage to have 3 million sheep, for that you would need approximately half a million Armenian nomads...
(Very rough calculation, 50.000 Yezidis keep approx 450-50.000 sheep...)
Useless to say: Impossible.

Only a big influx of nomads would get that target.
Plus, the price of sheep is not 150.
That's the price on street selling.
When you will have hundred of thousands on sale, you would be happy, if you get 75...
Plus you are omitting to calculate the costs and hasards..
There are some big ones...

But still, if calculate on a century long period (why 15 years?), you may get billions.

Now, returning to ground: the huge Bonanza offered by Lfig's deel is no more than 2,5 Million/year...
Is it worth the blood and enmity that will result between two neutral nations?

If turks got together to foment a big trap for Armenia and Iran, they could not have dreamt of a better plan.....

My wishful thinking this time:
Let the Iranian leaders think about this and its very predictable results for a while..
They already did a very huge service to turk:tatars during Shah Abass period, depleting all of East Armenia, and called in tatars and Kurds... they do taste the results, with us, till now...

In their grate experience and background, they may understand this better, than "our" illetrate , corrupted, oligarkh/mafiosis....

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

Verj even at 75 that's a lot of money, that is 3.625 Billion based on 3 million sheep. Now I will give you even more lets say it's 2 million that still 2.28 Billion!

Again please don't make a mistake in thinking I want toorks on our land, and I also stated that I don't like it but it is a choice to make. Don't minimize the money coming in from this deal! You are dismissing every point raised, if it was only for 2 million hell no, but 2 billion USD is not a joke bro! As far as other costs well that is part of moving money in the economy. They have to pay a doctor to check the sheep and maybe give it medicine? cha ching, more revenue more money moving about and changing hands. With all the sheep there are tax dollars at stake. What else do you want to minimize? Remember we can talk about this all day it still boils down to making a 15 year choice. Not minimizing anything you have pointed out, but please consider the economic benefit don't so easily dismiss it, sadly we are in no shape to refuse everything.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Agriculture

Verj even at 75 that's a lot of money, that is 3.625 Billion based on 3 million sheep. Now I will give you even more lets say it's 2 million that still 2.28 Billion!

Again please don't make a mistake in thinking I want toorks on our land, and I also stated that I don't like it but it is a choice to make. Don't minimize the money coming in from this deal! You are dismissing every point raised, if it was only for 2 million hell no, but 2 billion USD is not a joke bro! As far as other costs well that is part of moving money in the economy. They have to pay a doctor to check the sheep and maybe give it medicine? cha ching, more revenue more money moving about and changing hands. With all the sheep there are tax dollars at stake. What else do you want to minimize? Remember we can talk about this all day it still boils down to making a 15 year choice. Not minimizing anything you have pointed out, but please consider the economic benefit don't so easily dismiss it, sadly we are in no shape to refuse everything.

Vahram Sirelis,
The deal negociated by LISKA is limpid.
It says: 2,5 Million USD a year....
Or in detail: 25 USD/hectar in the beginning, for the rent of 50.000 hectars: that is only 1.250.000 USD
It is possible, that they will go to 100.000 hectars, that is 2.5 million

What are we talking about?
They will not ask us to keep, breed, and purchase sheep...
They want us to give them our land virtually for free, so that they can produce and export..; so you billions are for them.
We will only get 2.5 Million at best (!), plus the Turkish nomads on the back of our troops today... and something like 100 tatar/turk/kurd villages with their mosques, in a decade...
Just like in 30-s... You had more than 100 tatar villages in Zankezur.
Don't you remember??
Why do you not look at it straight, like it is???

[Vahram]

Re: Agriculture

They will not ask us to keep, breed, and purchase sheep...
They want us to give them our land virtually for free, so that they can produce and export..; so you billions are for them.

Hokis, Federated posted what the Minster from Iran stated. In that he said 2 to 3 Million sheep. Your making it seem like I'm reading something else. This yields billions for us taken from a price of 75 a head. BTW I gave you the 75 number just to be fair, the current price is a 150! You are telling me they can have what they want for 2.5 million. I have a hard time in believing that Armenia is going to let all this happen for 2.5 million please!

If the condition is all this for 2.5 million I have plainly said before feck this deal! However I'm having a hard time gulping that all this will make us only 2.5 million. Be fair and reasonable! You have a point I have said so plenty of times already, yet you fail to see any profit at all from this.

Why do you not look at it straight, like it is???

I don't know what is straight I see two side to the argument. I see making a lot of money, I also see your point. However your point is that there is no money to be made and the place will be filled with toorks. Since when do you think for 2 stinking million I would ever agree to Armenia being overrun with toorks? I'm being reasonable according to what has been shown to us as far as monies being made. Even with this I'm also acknowledging your points without dismissing them. We owe it to Hayastan to understand just how much money can be made. So far you keep pointing out about this " LISKA " Yet we have a lot of other information. Is the Liska deal just with the land right and not the outright sale of the sheep? I have a very hard time bro in thinking that for 2.5 million Armenia is going to let itself be xxxxxled by toorks, not after all that we have done! not after NKR and the brilliant political things we have done as of late. Again if the money is substantial then we have to sit down and think of it for what it is, and not outright dismiss the money that can be made.

Come on man please be reasonable!

Thank god you are not one of the liberals Verj, we would not be able to have a lengthy conversation. Also please have a little understanding you are not the only one here with a Verj to solve!

Getze Hayastan!