Armenia's Energy sector

[londontsi]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

Just a little description of our Gas network, to make the debate clearer............

Vrej

Thank you for very informative explanation of events relating to issues in the energy sector.
I used to follow the news in those days but never managed to join the dots.
Very strategic for the country and matter of life and death during those years.

You seem very informed therefore I have to ask, why do you rely so much on that crap paper lrakir?


.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

Vrej

Thank you for very informative explanation of events relating to issues in the energy sector.
I used to follow the news in those days but never managed to join the dots.
Very strategic for the country and matter of life and death during those years.

You seem very informed therefore I have to ask, why do you rely so much on that crap paper lrakir?


.

Once again, "I do not rely on", I use articles published in.
If you consider that you have a better choice, please do propose in this:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/20464-Which-Media-outlet-is-allowed-to-read

Why: because I do not find same subjects elsewhere.

Do you consider my quoted articles as crap?: please have a sit, and show which argument posted by me is crap, I would be happy to read your view.

[Serjik]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

Did it ever occur to anyone that this Vrej charakter is not who he says he is? Who in their rights minds takes anything Lragir does seriously. - other than Azeris LOL

[Artashes]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

Just a little description of our Gas network, to make the debate clearer, since the subject is:
- of strategic nature, economy/security/military.
- one of the sole fields, where at least theoritically we may have a good economic potential, and a place on a regional scale, if transit plans were to be implemented.
- a field, where our national interests DO NOT COINCIDE, to say the least, with Russia's.

SOVIET LEGACY:
Gas is a relatively modern energy for SRA, and the Transcausasus in general. It was developed in the 70's and on. The Armenian SR was not seen as an entity, but in the frame of the Transcaucasian 3 republics.
There were 3 Gas pipes entering Armenian territory, and thus bringing Russia's Gas. Back then, Baku was not a significant producer, and Armenia's economy was largely based on petro-chemistry, notably the 2 major complexes of Yerevan (Nayirit), and Vanazor (aka-Kirovakan/ Chimprom factory).
1- The Northern pipe, passing by North Ossetia, Georgia, Marneul (Treghk), Ayrum, Vanazor...
This medium size pipe was secondary, in the general plan of the GOSPLAN's Transcausaus Gas network in full development then.
2- The main Gas pipe coming from Kazakh/Aghstafa (Az), to Ijevan. Was ment to be the major pipe for Yerevan.
3- The special Pipe for Nakhitchevan, specially built on the demand of Mr Aliyev Heidar, then the "main" boss of the Transcaucasus, well placed in the Politburo of Moskwa, and close accomplice of Brejnev. This went from Akna(aka-Agdam), Askeran,Stepanakert, Shushi, Perzor(aka-Lacin), Goris, Sisian, Shahabunk(aka-Shahpuz, Nakh), Nakhitchevan.
The main asset of Armenia: In the entire network, there was a medium size strategic reserve, built in Apovian, in the territory of big salt deposit (natural salt mine reserves). This is a very favorable geological strata, safe, economical, easy to expand, if necessary.
Since the idea of independance, war, let alone a blockade was not even imaginable, the aim of the reserve was to insure the security of the network, in case there was an accident, on the pipes coming from Russia.

WAR:
During the war, and pre-war period, as soon as it had the capacity, Azerbaijan cut the main Gas pipe of Armenia, coming to Ijevan, as it cut the rail & road communications.
For a while, even during part of the dark and cold winter 1991, thanks to the necessity to sent Gas to Nakhitchevan and Shushi, Baku was forced to sent some gas true Stepanakert and Goris.
Thus, while bombarded and encirceled, living in the basements and the dark, Stepanakertzis did have some gas, to keep warm...
Having no direct pipe link from Goris to Yerevan, via Armenian territory (the network passed via Nakhitchevan), Armenia could not divert some gas to its central network, even if the pressure would definitely not been enough, since the Armenian network was dependant from Nakhitchevan , even for its internal transport.
Having Lost Its main pipe, and the pipe via NKR and the south, the only entrance left was the pipe via Georgia. All along, the Georgians syphoned shamelessly huge parts of the gas ment for Yerevan, and even more so, as the pipe did go via Treghk (aka Marneul), now mainly an azeri inhabited region of of Georgia, borderin 2/3 of Armenia's Northern Border with Georgia, the azeri services blew up this pipe time and time again, at their will, if I do remember well, might be 20 times ... thus the cold years...


INDEPENDANCE:
As soon as relative peace was established, the idea of a Gas pipe from Iran was evident.
First plans were layed in 1996.
But Russia Blocked with all its might, to exclude any possiilty of Transit, of Iranian Gas to Europe.... And since at tat time Gas price was very cheap, arround 50 USD that time, the Armenian authorities did not felt the emergency of an Iranian source.
With time passing, Russian/Georgian relations deteriorating, the only pipe coming in via Georgia got older and older. Allready under sised..; plus, Georgia solving its gas import via its close alliance with Baku and Ankara, the northern pipe appeared more fragile as ever. At first shot of a new war, we may be certain, that Baku will decide to blow out the pipe coming from Georgia, regardeless what Maskwa, Tiflis, or anybody else could think about, since it has all ability to do so...
The only hope was the reserves in Apovian, thus turning to VERY HIGH STRATEGIC OBJECT for Armenia.
With a new factor. Georgia being in fact independant from russian gas, has no more any incentive, to haste the potential repairs necessary... (already in 92-94, often repairs were done by teams sent from Armenia).
Anyway, during Kocharian years, some very imprtant strategic plans were implemented, enabling Armenia to face a new war in a more operative situation: The tunnel of Tilijan was finished, the Spantaryan/Ketchud (Vorotan/Arpa) tunnel finalised, even if it effectively never transported a drop of water to Sevan, the road linking Ijevan to Vanatzor was built, the second road directly from Kapan to Meghri, via Dzav (bypassing Kajaran pass and Nakhitchevan threat) etc...
In this same logic, and even with much delay, due to Russian veto, the pipe from Iran was built.
It was built by Iranian finances, and state budget of Armenia. The Russians refused to finance, thus the pipe was State property, independant from already partially russian hold Hayrusgazart.
Plus, Armenia had to built a second section, inside its territory, linking Sisian with Ararat, to bypass the Nakhitchevan blockade, of the Soviet era network...

The reason/pretext permitting the construction (ok of Moskwa), was to use it in a Gas/electricity swap plan with Iran, using thus the V block of Hraztan power plant, yet not built, and planned during Soviet era, and in fact overcapacity for shrinked Armenian industry...

This point is very important, to understand our Iranian partners.
They did not really need the power generating capacity of Hraztan, but on a long range perspective, accepted the idea, to bypass the veto of Moskwa, having the firm hope, to turn, even the forcefully minimized pipe's infrastructure, as a transit road, to export to Europe (since most important and harassing work, the earth and infrastructure are done, adding a bigger pipe next the existing demands much less efforts and funds.)

When if fact, our regime passed the new pipe, from state control to Russians (Hayrusgazart), and then ended up selling not only its network, the Apovian reserves, plus the OBLIGATION to buy only rusian gas for the coming 30 years, he Iranians have grounds to feel betrayed.

In all logic, this policy is not in best terest of Armenia, even if it is for the regime ???

Vrej

Thank you for very informative explanation of events relating to issues in the energy sector.
I used to follow the news in those days but never managed to join the dots.
Very strategic for the country and matter of life and death during those years.

You seem very informed therefore I have to ask, why do you rely so much on that crap paper lrakir?


.

Once again, "I do not rely on", I use articles published in.
If you consider that you have a better choice, please do propose in this:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/20464-Which-Media-outlet-is-allowed-to-read

Why: because I do not find same subjects elsewhere.

Do you consider my quoted articles as crap?: please have a sit, and show which argument posted by me is crap, I would be happy to read your view.

Did it ever occur to anyone that this Vrej charakter is not who he says he is? Who in their rights minds takes anything Lragir does seriously. - other than Azeris LOL

First quote by Vrej is highly informative and instructive. If one reads of Vrej's concern for the waters of Seven & other waters & invironment &, &, & it's easy to see genuine concern connected to an intellect of merit.
If you read Londontsi's post above,you see an exercise in civil conversation that is clear, to the point and pleasant (ime).
If you read Vrej's reply, again you see a clear intelligent civil response.
The basic grass roots "brainstorming" to seek potential solutions that Hakob advocates, is IMO the only option we actually have. Provided we have that at all.
IMO , Vrej has written too many sound things to bring question of character or patriotism into question.
Read Vrej's last post.
There is no question that Russia is pressuring us, to there advantage. Russia is not acting like the friend who sacrifices to help his friend get back on their feet & stand on their own.
Russia has made many sacrifices for Armenia, but always in the context them remaining our leaders.
We, Armenians don't have any true friends amongst the people's.
As I've said before on a number of occasions ... We (Armenians) are the only ones who care about Hayastan.
If we, from the ground up, do not figure out how to get out of this (these) impossible situation, well expect more of the same.
The tutorial on our gas that you posted above Vrej was most helpful. I like Londontsi never understood this with such clarity until your post.
Artashes

[Vrej1915]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

My Dear,
Russia, nor any other power did ever made any sacrifices for Armenia.
And it is just normal.
Only servant minded peoples (like us, having lost statehood for a millennium) think that making sacrifices for an other, would be payed back by gratitude, and return 'love'.
This kind of criteria does not exist in state relationship.
Only mutual interest, and respect due the might of the partner (not always military), dictate relations.
No one asks Russia to do sacrifices for us.
All I say, we need to force Russia, however unrealistic it might seem, to respect our basic, vital national interests.
And to do that, N°1 condition, is STOP SAYING AMEN to every Russian betrayal, on the ground of groundless Russophylia.
The best way to encourage Russia's treacherous acts, is to forgive its past criminal behaviour towards us.....

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

My Dear,
Russia, nor any other power did ever made any sacrifices for Armenia.
And it is just normal.
Only servant minded peoples (like us, having lost statehood for a millennium) think that making sacrifices for an other, would be payed back by gratitude, and return 'love'.
This kind of criteria does not exist in state relationship.
Only mutual interest, and respect due the might of the partner (not always military), dictate relations.
No one asks Russia to do sacrifices for us.
All I say, we need to force Russia, however unrealistic it might seem, to respect our basic, vital national interests.
And to do that, N°1 condition, is STOP SAYING AMEN to every Russian betrayal, on the ground of groundless Russophylia.
The best way to encourage Russia's treacherous acts, is to forgive its past criminal behaviour towards us.....

Now this how we should all be thinking....there is no doubt that we need Russia as an ally and most of us like Russia even born there but that shouldn't mean forgetting the reality of the past or aligning all of Armenia's national/foreign policies 100 percent with Russian policies.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

Now this how we should all be thinking....there is no doubt that we need Russia as an ally and most of us like Russia even born there but that shouldn't mean forgetting the reality of the past or aligning all of Armenia's national/foreign policies 100 percent with Russian policies.

Exactly what I say.
If you do not want Russia to sell your vital interests, start by reminding its betrayals, and your anger, memory about that.
No threat of reversal/or certain impunity: best way to get same dish served again!

[Artashes]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

My Dear,
Russia, nor any other power did ever made any sacrifices for Armenia.
And it is just normal.
Only servant minded peoples (like us, having lost statehood for a millennium) think that making sacrifices for an other, would be payed back by gratitude, and return 'love'.
This kind of criteria does not exist in state relationship.
Only mutual interest, and respect due the might of the partner (not always military), dictate relations.
No one asks Russia to do sacrifices for us.
All I say, we need to force Russia, however unrealistic it might seem, to respect our basic, vital national interests.
And to do that, N�1 condition, is STOP SAYING AMEN to every Russian betrayal, on the ground of groundless Russophylia.
The best way to encourage Russia's treacherous acts, is to forgive its past criminal behaviour towards us.....

---- only servant minded people --- think that making sacrifices for an other, would be paid back by gratitude, and return love ---- and it is just normal ---
---- this kind of criteria does not exist in state relationships ----

Both you (Vrej) & Hakakan have pointed out to me that it's "normal" for a state to be out for their best interests when dealing with all others (I paraphrase).
I have stood corrected in the sense that is is reasonable for an individual or state to be concerned for their selves.
However, the conduct of the individual & the state are the same.
The state represents the collective individuals & and the individual is a representitive of his people's, state, or country.
I, as an individual, do represent the mores & conduct of my family & represent how they brought me up.
To conduct myself badly is a tarnish on my family & would cause them to wonder where I learned such bad conduct.
Both you and Hakakan say it is "normal" to act in a self centered bigoted way.
I say it is the common real politk, BUT not normal.
There is a difference to the common conduct & what's actually normal.
Normal is kindness for the sake of kindness. It may not (and is not) what is commonly done, but that is what an honest, decent conduct would (and should) dictate be done, if one wants to qualify for being normal.
To say, because the common conduct is to act like a blind, self centered a$s hole, does not make that conduct normal.
This conduct cannot be justified BECAUSE everyone else is doing it.
When you say -- only servant minded people think that making sacrifices for other, would be paid back by gratitude, and return love---
I adamantly disagree.
Our people have honestly & and decently worked, contributed, & sacrificed across this globe, but rarely been acknowledged.
It may be the real politk for virtually all the other nations to take the credit as their own, and NOT show gratitude & return love in kind, but that is nothing more than self centered bigotry.
Are you advocating that you would not return or at least recognize a kind selfless act in kind??
Do you the the individual should be taught such??
It is one thing to teach understanding & recognition of the underhanded conduct of this world, but quit another thing to condone it, or classify it as normal.
I know I've struggled to make this point, but had to try.
Artashes

[Vrej1915]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

---- only servant minded people --- think that making sacrifices for an other, would be paid back by gratitude, and return love ---- and it is just normal ---
---- this kind of criteria does not exist in state relationships ----

Both you (Vrej) & Hakakan have pointed out to me that it's "normal" for a state to be out for their best interests when dealing with all others (I paraphrase).
I have stood corrected in the sense that is is reasonable for an individual or state to be concerned for their selves.
However, the conduct of the individual & the state are the same.
The state represents the collective individuals & and the individual is a representitive of his people's, state, or country.
I, as an individual, do represent the mores & conduct of my family & represent how they brought me up.
To conduct myself badly is a tarnish on my family & would cause them to wonder where I learned such bad conduct.
Both you and Hakakan say it is "normal" to act in a self centered bigoted way.
I say it is the common real politk, BUT not normal.
There is a difference to the common conduct & what's actually normal.
Normal is kindness for the sake of kindness. It may not (and is not) what is commonly done, but that is what an honest, decent conduct would (and should) dictate be done, if one wants to qualify for being normal.
To say, because the common conduct is to act like a blind, self centered a$s hole, does not make that conduct normal.
This conduct cannot be justified BECAUSE everyone else is doing it.
When you say -- only servant minded people think that making sacrifices for other, would be paid back by gratitude, and return love---
I adamantly disagree.
Our people have honestly & and decently worked, contributed, & sacrificed across this globe, but rarely been acknowledged.
It may be the real politk for virtually all the other nations to take the credit as their own, and NOT show gratitude & return love in kind, but that is nothing more than self centered bigotry.
Are you advocating that you would not return or at least recognize a kind selfless act in kind??
Do you the the individual should be taught such??
It is one thing to teach understanding & recognition of the underhanded conduct of this world, but quit another thing to condone it, or classify it as normal.
I know I've struggled to make this point, but had to try.
Artashes

My Dear,
Sorry if I shocked you.
In a moral sense, you are right, that's not good.
But unfortunately in REALPOLITICS, that's the way things work.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia's Energy sector

---- only servant minded people --- think that making sacrifices for an other, would be paid back by gratitude, and return love ---- and it is just normal ---
---- this kind of criteria does not exist in state relationships ----

Both you (Vrej) & Hakakan have pointed out to me that it's "normal" for a state to be out for their best interests when dealing with all others (I paraphrase).
I have stood corrected in the sense that is is reasonable for an individual or state to be concerned for their selves.
However, the conduct of the individual & the state are the same.
The state represents the collective individuals & and the individual is a representitive of his people's, state, or country.
I, as an individual, do represent the mores & conduct of my family & represent how they brought me up.
To conduct myself badly is a tarnish on my family & would cause them to wonder where I learned such bad conduct.
Both you and Hakakan say it is "normal" to act in a self centered bigoted way.
I say it is the common real politk, BUT not normal.
There is a difference to the common conduct & what's actually normal.
Normal is kindness for the sake of kindness. It may not (and is not) what is commonly done, but that is what an honest, decent conduct would (and should) dictate be done, if one wants to qualify for being normal.
To say, because the common conduct is to act like a blind, self centered a$s hole, does not make that conduct normal.
This conduct cannot be justified BECAUSE everyone else is doing it.
When you say -- only servant minded people think that making sacrifices for other, would be paid back by gratitude, and return love---
I adamantly disagree.
Our people have honestly & and decently worked, contributed, & sacrificed across this globe, but rarely been acknowledged.
It may be the real politk for virtually all the other nations to take the credit as their own, and NOT show gratitude & return love in kind, but that is nothing more than self centered bigotry.
Are you advocating that you would not return or at least recognize a kind selfless act in kind??
Do you the the individual should be taught such??
It is one thing to teach understanding & recognition of the underhanded conduct of this world, but quit another thing to condone it, or classify it as normal.
I know I've struggled to make this point, but had to try.
Artashes

Artahes what you just described is the Armenians biggest weakness and what has killed us in history.......I would never want us to change, I don't think we can, but we must be more careful to who we extend our kindness and trust.