Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

[Hakob]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

My Dear,
Can You remind me, where was Serjik standing, when he proclaimed his acceptance of the capitulationist turkish protocols?

My dear,
They were not "turkish protocols", as created by turkey as such a simple naming in us is circulated. They were protocols sponsored by US and EU for establishment of Armenia/Turkish political relations under western umbrella.
Serjik was 100% right in insisting and signing those protocols as "establishing a dialoge without conditions". As turks were planing that Armenia would not sign it or be as stupid as to put preconditions in there which the west itself was not about to accept, in their calculations there would be no problem for turkey to let it's younger brother down and do anything in breaking blockade of Armenia. The result, turks have not ratified it (if it was capitulationist as you say why wouldn't they ratify it?), giving Armenia a wide political room in maneuvring and puting one more nail in turkish policy of "no problems with neigbours". As an end result, at least in sothern caucasus, turkish plans of becoming a powerplayer has been stalled.
Not signing it by Serjik would isolate Armenia with west(and with east for that matter).
If it was a "capitulationist" move as you say, then I wander what move is not capitulationist according to you?
Protocols were capitulationist. EEU agreement is capitulationist.
There is one capitulation which you will never call it with that name, is the one to EU. But does not look happening.
Also what have this protocols have to do with western propagana that is going on by Mouradian?
Saying "serjik has done this and that" does not make thier actions right.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

My dear,
They were not "turkish protocols", as created by turkey as such a simple naming in us is circulated. They were protocols sponsored by US and EU for establishment of Armenia/Turkish political relations under western umbrella.
Serjik was 100% right in insisting and signing those protocols as "establishing a dialoge without conditions". As turks were planing that Armenia would not sign it or be as stupid as to put preconditions in there which the west itself was not about to accept, in their calculations there would be no problem for turkey to let it's younger brother down and do anything in breaking blockade of Armenia. The result, turks have not ratified it (if it was capitulationist as you say why wouldn't they ratify it?), giving Armenia a wide political room in maneuvring and puting one more nail in turkish policy of "no problems with neigbours". As an end result, at least in sothern caucasus, turkish plans of becoming a powerplayer has been stalled.
Not signing it by Serjik would isolate Armenia with west(and with east for that matter).
If it was a "capitulationist" move as you say, then I wander what move is not capitulationist according to you?
Protocols were capitulationist. EEU agreement is capitulationist.
There is one capitulation which you will never call it with that name, is the one to EU. But does not look happening.
Also what have this protocols have to do with western propagana that is going on by Mouradian?
Saying "serjik has done this and that" does not make thier actions right.

My Dear,
You did not answer: Where was he standing?

The link of the protocols was the off topic article posted by Londontzi, as if it was news, the US is playing with Turkey.
If somebody does its best to kill the Armenian question since 1917 (at least, without returning to Tzarist era), that is Russia, with all complicity with the Turks.
Londontzi as his name indicates is in London, he might find containers full of documents of british hostile acts towards our interests since the XVII century, to begin with.... , but is that a reason to ignore Russia's behavior?
Are we supposed to be in a military alliance with the Brits, or the Russians?
Whom are you advocating for?

EEU is a neo-CCCP, do you deny it?
And what's the wrong, about refusing to accept loss of 700 Years old ideal, to end with?

Finally:
No one offered us a place in the EU.
EU has nothing to do with a doomed neo-CCCP with a Panturkist Khan on the top, without mentioning the rest....

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

My dear,
They were not "turkish protocols", as created by turkey as such a simple naming in us is circulated. They were protocols sponsored by US and EU for establishment of Armenia/Turkish political relations under western umbrella.
Serjik was 100% right in insisting and signing those protocols as "establishing a dialoge without conditions". As turks were planing that Armenia would not sign it or be as stupid as to put preconditions in there which the west itself was not about to accept, in their calculations there would be no problem for turkey to let it's younger brother down and do anything in breaking blockade of Armenia. The result, turks have not ratified it (if it was capitulationist as you say why wouldn't they ratify it?), giving Armenia a wide political room in maneuvring and puting one more nail in turkish policy of "no problems with neigbours". As an end result, at least in sothern caucasus, turkish plans of becoming a powerplayer has been stalled.
Not signing it by Serjik would isolate Armenia with west(and with east for that matter).
If it was a "capitulationist" move as you say, then I wander what move is not capitulationist according to you?
Protocols were capitulationist. EEU agreement is capitulationist.
There is one capitulation which you will never call it with that name, is the one to EU. But does not look happening.
Also what have this protocols have to do with western propagana that is going on by Mouradian?
Saying "serjik has done this and that" does not make thier actions right.

The Turkish protocols are turkish in essence, and best proof is the result they ended in.
By it, Russia imposed Turkey as a player, in Artsakh resolution process, while it was excluded from for 18 years.
Not willing to see reality, does not make it brighter.
The protocols, that are still humiliatingly hanging up in the air, are the best argument stopping recognition of the Genocide, we gave the Turks.
So if anybody thinks of that question, let us clean before our door, before anything else.

On the other side of the medal:
The US has evident interest in the protocols, and Turkey's containment.
Is that a reason, to accept anything to please the Gosdep, with no other benefit, for our side, other than legitimisation of his regime?

[Hakob]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

The Turkish protocols are turkish in essence, and best proof is the result they ended in.
By it, Russia imposed Turkey as a player, in Artsakh resolution process, while it was excluded from for 18 years.
Not willing to see reality, does not make it brighter.

On the other side of the medal:
The US has evident interest in the protocols, and Turkey's containment.
Is that a reason, to accept anything to please the Gosdep, with no other benefit, for our side, other than legitimisation of his regime?

Vrej jan, akhper, do you read for a second time what you have just replied?
So by US/EU sponsored protocols Russia has imposed turkey as a player in Artsakh resolution process? Am I missing something?

US has interest "containing Turkey" and Serjik has signed it in order to please Russian Gosudarstvenniy Department (GosDep you call) in order to keep his rejime legitimate?
I don't know how to continue Serjik jan. You just have put me speachless.
Russia is not in everyhting bad. Maybe lots of things. But not everything.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

Vrej jan, akhper, do you read for a second time what you have just replied?
So by US/EU sponsored protocols Russia has imposed turkey as a player in Artsakh resolution process? Am I missing something?

US has interest "containing Turkey" and Serjik has signed it in order to please Russian Gosudarstvenniy Department (GosDep you call) in order to keep his rejime ligitime?
I don't know how to continue Serjik jan. You just have put me speachless.
Russia is not in everyhting bad. Maybe lots of things. But not everything.

The US ( EU is second class here), has an interest to create new levers to contain Turkey.
And as a such, its interests does meet ours, and much more those of the EU, if such an entity did really exist, as a homogenuous entity, single player (Unfortunately it does not).
So the "idea of protocols", as a such, was not new, and is basically acceptable, if they were properly negociated.
What was necessary to the US was the tool, and not the content.
The problems with these, are their content, giving the Turks all they might dream off, and nothing to us.
They were signed, by a very weak Serjik, in dare need of legitimacy in the West (and only that), and BECAUSE the Russian Tzar ordered it.
The Russian Tzar ordered it, because it was in a barter with the Turks, and decided to make a gamble, in a Poker game, trying to outmaneuver the West at its own play.

So, Serjik has no merit at all, apart that of total amateurish incompetence:
1- He must have necociated better, to exclude AT LEAST the Historian's commission, Turkey dreams about for the last 20 years. Accepting all the preconditions of the enemy is not a sign of intellectual might, the contrary.
2- He must have negociated tangible advantages for the State of Armenia, security or economical, by the US and the EU, against the risks he took in accepting their game. (Gosdep= Hillary's office), and not simply his regime's blessing.
3- He did it, at the end, first off all, BECAUSE of the Russian order, best symbolised by the place he accepted it: the doorstep of the Tzarik...

Did I said that Russia is all bad, or did I said the US or the EU is all good.
All I say, is that Russia is much darker, than what the pro-russian prapagandists try to make us beleive for the last centuries.

Thanks to the INCOMPETENT foreign Policy (with no professional, and at least Armenian Foreign Minister) of your Admired Serjik, we ended in the worst diplomatic position, from a rather "secure" (at least the best we ever had) one, in a couple of years.

The main danger comes from Moskwa, as so often, since they are the ones willing to handle our lands, in name of their potential 'return' in South Kawkaz, to bribe the Turks.
In 2008-2009 we did benefit from the help of the US, to derail their plans, since we did have our 'complementary' policy.
By abandoning our right to independent statehood and a Foreign Policy on the tragic 3 Sept 2013(sure, a perspective you do welcome), in name of his regime's survival, we do loose any interest of the West.

Who's support are we going to look for, to resist Russia's capitulationist pressure this time?

And Yes, giving an inch of land, is capitulationist, for me.
Any plan that supposes such an option, is a such.

[Hakob]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

If US is trying to contain Turkey, then looking at Syria, especially the latest Kessab events, it does not look that way any more.
Again, no matter what anybody says, just the 6 points published in last fiew months and reaffirmed by US government as a state dept. policy, then confirmed also, that this policy has been in the basis of US plan for at least a decade and half, the 2008-2009 opposition's interpretation sounds more of a story for fools.
So US has been trying to give Artsakh to Azerbaijan all along this time ( maybe we will hear from you something contrary). Then what has been keeping Russia from doing it too, if it had this in mind all along?
You see, in any equasion you guys make, you forget one important fact, that in 2008-2009 Serjik was getting in bed with US/EU all the way for eventual signing of some sort of EU deal, like you would have liked it. And there was an unfavorable russian policy forming with NEUTRAL AZERBAIJAN.
For Armenia doing 180 degree turn towards russia, should be looked not only because the military equiblium was shifting towards Baku, but also because of US policies, where our government got fed up with US game of juggling would be economic prosperity potential with ending Artsakh problem with unfavorable for us resolution in our face. No more Artsakh conflict, no more russian army in Armenia. Problem solved. And in that solution for west, which side had a heavier hand with oil and being NATO member is clear for kids even.
When talking about Serj signing a "capitulationist" deal with turkey, without taking into account of how much turkish/azery side (US and EU also) had chances at ending Artsalkh conflict in their favor if Russia was in agreement with them, and why both ended up rejecting it, is a shallow one dimentional interpretation that is set to discredit only our government in our eyes.
As long as Artsakh conflict is there, there will be russians in southern caucasus. As soon as it is ended, so will end the reason of both Azerbaijan and Armenia having anything to do with Russia. Even if Armenians were dying to be with russians, they would not and could not stand against western temptations and pressure.
You don't give us any detail of why EU interests meets ours, besides economic integration. Elaborate on that a little bit more please. Did EU or US for that matter have any bright hiden benefits for Artsakh in mind? Future deals?
US and EU allready have that fu ckin deal with Baku and turkey. Are we going to deny that? They already have built the pipeline and invested untold bilions. US HAS ALLREADY BARTERED ARTSAKH AWAY ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO WHEN LAYING THE PLANS FOR PIPELINE AND THE ONLY THING THAT KEPT TURKEY AND BAKU FROM CLAIMING THEIR PRIZE WAS RUSSIAN 102 ND ARMY. Containing. MY ASS.
This talk, about US trying to contain turkey, that has been used by our opposition to counter Russia's role has been wearing off very thin. As long as Russia is here in south caucasus, Turkey IS CONTAINED. Period...
I would not expect from Igor to look at September 3 as a deal that maybe SAVED ARTSAKH. He is not paid to do that.
Now a declaration by US of plans for return of Artsakh to AZerbaijan in one hand and Russian conspiracy theories( where it is reinterpeted and used russia's policies in keeping Azerbaijan at least neutral as an inevitable and proved sign of returning Artsakh) by opposition on the other hand, I think one will have no problem in deciding from where is the real danger.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

If US is trying to contain Turkey, then looking at Syria, especially the latest Kessab events, it does not look that way any more.

V: First, In Syria, The US is the not only player, and the game is rather very complex.
But on a whole, if you compare what situation we had before and now, you will have to accept, that Turkey is largely contained, however catastrophic the consequences are for the population of Syria, and beyond.
Before, you had a Turkey in a love affair with Bashar, with free access to Syria, Lebanon, and beyond, to Jordan, and all the Arabian Peninsula, all ready to by the return of a Neo-Ottoman project (the so called zero problem), now you have a Turkey with hermetically closed doors, bogged down in a nightmare civil war, with on top, a Second Kurdish entity in the making.
The only point we can grant to Turks, is their ability to master Kurdish affairs, and in that, most of the merit is theirs, more than US help...


Again, no matter what anybody says, just the 6 points published in last fiew months and reaffirmed by US government as a state dept. policy, then confirmed also, that this policy has been in the basis of US plan for at least a decade and half, the 2008-2009 opposition's interpretation sounds more of a story for fools.

V: The fact that peace=surrender of part or most of liberated territories is a principe on the air, since 1994, as a slogan. All 3 mediators, and most of all, OUR successful regimes did never argue. The error and guilt is first of all OURS, since we always accepted it as 'just talk'.
Now, one thing is what is proclaimed, and one other what is really looked after.
In reality, at the very beginning, during 92, the US, with the GOBLE plan, was effectively pushing for our defeat, as we were perceived as 'russian vassals'.
Simultaneously, the Russians played the Turkish game, with no Meghri (Turan) option, but barter of Artsakh for influence in Baku.
There is OUR MAIN merit and VICTORY: since, left virtually alone and with NO Ally (exception Iran), WE WON A WAR, basically against Russia and the US will. (said roughly, in details according to given period, and given territory, and questions, their positions differed, and in one specific situation related to Nakhitchevan, and the famous WWIII of Shaposhnikov, they basically cooperated to stop Turkish direct intervention)

After 1994, we appeared as a NEW player, that finally (even if established within new limits no one was welcoming at first) suited the interest of the 4 main players: Russia (still week, and having a good damn beating in Tchechnya), US (still euphoric after victory in CW) and digesting the Balkans and Eastern Europe, Iran, and newly self esteeming EU.

Last US push to have a kavkazki Dayton was Key West. Happily it was sabotaged, in part thanks to Russian role, not in Yerevan, but Baku...
Between KW and 2003, the US, Iran, and EU did play the Status ko game, suiting our interests.
Things have changed after 888, and return of Russia, with Tzarik (Medvedev) trying to play the first turkish love affair/poker.
That game was torpeedoyed by the US.

So US has been trying to give Artsakh to Azerbaijan all along this time ( maybe we will hear from you something contrary). Then what has been keeping Russia from doing it too, if it had this in mind all along?

V: As long as you do not accept rude reality, you can't analyse.
No matter how cruel or mad it does sound for us, for our "Russian Friends", Armenia (off course, they have in mind "their offpost" of Aleksandrabol, and by it their presence in South Kavkaz), is NOT ONE with Artsakh.
That is, in their imagination, they CAN AFFORD to offer NKR to Baku, and Yet keep Armenia as THEIRS"
Sad, but fact.
And this is the red line, to understand Russian policy, at least since 1918.
WE WILL BE SAVED, if We manage to put it very clearly, and convincingly, before our "Russian friends":
We loose AN INTCH OF NKR, YOU GET THE HELL OUT OF ALEXANDRABOL

You see, in any equasion you guys make, you forget one important fact, that in 2008-2009 Serjik was getting in bed with US/EU all the way for eventual signing of some sort of EU deal, like you would have liked it. And there was an unfavorable russian policy forming with NEUTRAL AZERBAIJAN.

V: If Serjik was to go to bed with the West, he must have first taken out his russian Condom, Primakovevitsh...
He was ready to anything, to save his seet, as he is today

For Armenia doing 180 degree turn towards russia, should be looked not only because the military equiblium was shifting towards Baku, but also because of US policies, where our government got fed up with US game of juggling would be economic prosperity potential with ending Artsakh problem with unfavorable for us resolution in our face.

V: Your opinion about the patriotism of our Government is enviable.
I wish such objectives were looked after...


No more Artsakh conflict, no more russian army in Armenia. Problem solved. And in that solution for west, which side had a heavier hand with oil and being NATO member is clear for kids even.

V: Once again, you miss the point. In a Russian mindset, no more Artsakh, does absolutely not mean no more Armenia (Alekpol), and certainly not no more Artsakh problem.... all the contrary; In their mind, the aim is something not far from NKAO, with garantee Russian presence...


When talking about Serj signing a "capitulationist" deal with turkey, without taking into account of how much turkish/azery side (US and EU also) had chances at ending Artsalkh conflict in their favor if Russia was in agreement with them, and why both ended up rejecting it, is a shallow one dimentional interpretation that is set to discredit only our government in our eyes.

V: See previous point.

As long as Artsakh conflict is there, there will be russians in southern caucasus. As soon as it is ended, so will end the reason of both Azerbaijan and Armenia having anything to do with Russia. Even if Armenians were dying to be with russians, they would not and could not stand against western temptations and pressure.

You don't give us any detail of why EU interests meets ours, besides economic integration. Elaborate on that a little bit more please. Did EU or US for that matter have any bright hiden benefits for Artsakh in mind? Future deals?

V: The EU (once again, reserve on UK, the outsider, and US agent inside EU, and having played for decades the game of implosing the futur champion) feels an existential threat from Turkey. If the US plan of integrated Turkey would have worked, Turkey would have been the N°1 nation in EU, plus, substantial Turkish communities (plus place of leader for all other muslim communities, Arabs mainly, with AKP's islamist propaganda, and no other muslim state inside EU, apart Bosnia and Albania, already "turkish in essence") inside the major EU states like Germany, France, UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Danmark, Sweden, Austria, Italy, (+ Ballkans, doomed to integrate: Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia... even Serbia with muslims remaining) and soon in Spain....., no European state(regime, party) can afford to counter turkish interest within EU, without loosing power next elections.
In essence, integrating Turkey to the EU, is putting an END to the Integrated United States of Europe, and transforming it to a large free trade zone, at the mercy of US interests.
Short: when it comes to the EU (central, Global ambitious states, around French-German Axis), anything that can harm Turkey, is an ally.

US and EU allready have that fu ckin deal with Baku and turkey. Are we going to deny that? They already have built the pipeline and invested untold bilions. US HAS ALLREADY BARTERED ARTSAKH AWAY ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO WHEN LAYING THE PLANS FOR PIPELINE AND THE ONLY THING THAT KEPT TURKEY AND BAKU IN CLAIMING THEIR PRISE WAS RUSSIAN 102 ND ARMY.

V: Ba hoooooo....... You need to review your analysis from beginning.
However foolish it might sound, the BTC served as guarantor of the peace=status ko, since the beginning, with US + UK blessing for Status Ko. With such force, that even Russia did not tare to touch the pipe in 888....
On the other side, the near extinction of the reserves of Baku, is an element favoring resumption of hostilities, since no more Veto of the Oil lobby, and beginning of the might for Ilham

Containing. MY ASS.
This talk, about US trying to contain turkey, that has been used by our opposition to counter Russia's role has been wearing off very thin. As long as Russia is here in south caucasus, Turkey IS CONTAINED. Period...

V: Russia and Turkey are mutually doomed to contain each other, in a game dictated by the West. And that's a point that makes them mad, both of them. And both of them try to find a way out, by collaborating (off course, always at OUR EXPENSE), both of them ambitionning to have the upper hand on the other at the end of the game.
That's our Tragedy.
Since from day 1, Russia always played the game, using our interests as its cheap coins.


I would not expect from Igor to look at September 3 as a deal that maybe SAVED ARTSAKH. He is not paid to do that.

V: Just as You would have said the same in 1920..., when the 11 army Saved us...., and of course, Artsakh, Nakhitchevan, Javakhk, Treghk, Kars, Ardahan, Kartmank....
The reason Russia can afford to play this game, is exactly your mindset, so widely rooted in our minds.
And I was the first to think like you, untill 29 May 1990.....

Now a declaration by US plans for return of Artsakh to AZerbaijan in one hand and Russian conspiracy theories( where it is reinterpeted and used russia's policies in keeping Azerbaijan at least neutral as an inevitable and proved sign of returning Artsakh) by opposition on the other hand, I think one will have no problem in deciding from where is the real danger.

,,,,,,

[Haykakan]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

Vrej you better check under your bed for the boogieman-i mean Putin. If not for Putin and Russia the Armenians along with most of the Syrians would be dead now but i bet Vrej thinks that the Syrian problem is also Russias fault. I bet vrej has a Putin blowup doll in his bedroom.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

Vrej you better check under your bed for the boogieman-i mean Putin. If not for Putin and Russia the Armenians along with most of the Syrians would be dead now but i bet Vrej thinks that the Syrian problem is also Russias fault. I bet vrej has a Putin blowup doll in his bedroom.

Dovariche MELS .
Garogh e jamanagin garkin mart ess eghel, proste btamid.
Himi arten chad ess esh esh turss daliss.

Intch lezvov bidi assem, vor hasganass.
Hedess kordz tchuness.
Intz mi nchi.

Kna ko kordzin.

[Haykakan]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

Dovariche MELS .
Garogh e jamanagin garkin mart ess eghel, proste btamid.
Himi arten chad ess esh esh turss daliss.

Intch lezvov bidi assem, vor hasganass.
Hedess kordz tchuness.
Intz mi nchi.

Kna ko kordzin.

Eem gordzne eem zoghovutin pashtpanel ko nmannerits.