Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

[SoyElTurco]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

This thread is pathetic.

The fact that this thread is up shows how insecure and miserable the non-Turkish posters and discussers are. What the hell does any non-turk care if Turkey will get in or not? It shows an underlying pathology of wanting to displace one's own frustration, misery and humiliation.

The thread's title is "Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union" and not "Prospects of Turkey's EU membership," proves this thread is for people that want to gripe and belittle Turkey. - Absolutely miserable.

Making assertions out of something that is pure speculation is ridiculous, especially if there is nothing in it for you.

How much better is your own situation that you boldy make assertions and conclusions about another's? Just take a look at yourselves for a moment.

More productive avenues of discussion are better. I think there should be a thread about Armenia's EU prospects rather than Turkey's. Turkey's EU candidacy is only relevant in how it will affect Armenia. To assert Turkey won't get in isn't much of a discussion for Armenia, because - may God FORBID - if Turkey ever by some chance does get accepted, what will it mean for Armenia? Right now the discussion is useless because Turkey's non-acceptance/out-right future rejection is simply a continuation of its current state as a Non-EU member. The difference is, if Turkey does become an EU member, how it will affect Armenia, and currently Turkey is not an EU member and therefore the non-acceptance of Turkey will probably mean the continuation of the current Turkey-Armenia dynamic.

A better thread would be "Turkey-Armenia relations if Turkey were an EU member."

[meline]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

From a purey legal perspective, admission to the EU entails harmonization of domestic legislation with that of the European Communities. This is the first point where Turkey flagrantly fails the criteria. The obvious example is article 304 in the turkish penal code "insult of the turkish state" as compared to the legislative framework of the eu. Politically speaking the two systems are incompatible. Plus the Cypruss issue, plus the fact that the majority of EU member states have recognised the Armenian Genocide, plus the fact that the draft law on penalizing denial of the AG is being discussed in the French Senate now, plus the growing concern on the number of turkish immigrants in Europe (as a proven source of tension and trouble), already show that the bid is doomed.
If I am not mistaken, Turkey began striving for EU membership as far back as 1963. So far the result boils down to a few partership agreements. Why? Because the EU is a marriage of convenience. It needs no clumsy partners, let alone troublesome ones. Like Armenian put it, it would be a suicide.
Like any other international organisation the EU has both its assets and drawbacks. And it also has historical memory. Quite strong, I would say, check the public opinion on the Turkish bid in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland and Greece, to name but a few. Of course the UK is out of the picture here, because it has never really been a European state. Plus they have more than often associated with turks.

And last but not least, money talks
If Turkey is ever admitted to the EU that would mean free access to the Common Market, ergo cheap, low quality goods, flooding eu markets, cutting down prices and turning upside down the status quo of exports and imports. Ha!? The EU is mainly an economic union you really think they would commit this suicide? I think not.

[crusader1492]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Al-Qaida draws more foreign recruits to Afghan war
Thursday, July 17, 2008
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By KATHY GANNON
PESHAWAR, Pakistan (AP) -- Afghanistan has been drawing a fresh influx of jihadi fighters from Turkey, Central Asia, Chechnya and the Middle East, one more sign that al-Qaida is regrouping on what is fast becoming the most active front of the war on terror groups.

More foreigners are infiltrating Afghanistan because of a recruitment drive by al-Qaida as well as a burgeoning insurgency that has made movement easier across the border from Pakistan, U.S. officials, militants and experts say. For the past two months, Afghanistan has overtaken Iraq in deaths of U.S. and allied troops, and nine American soldiers were killed at a remote base in Kunar province Sunday in the deadliest attack in years.

Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, warned during a visit to Kabul this month about an increase in foreign fighters crossing into Afghanistan from Pakistan, where a new government is trying to negotiate with militants.

Two U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information, told The Associated Press that the U.S. is closely monitoring the flow of foreign fighters into both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Jihadist Web sites from Chechnya to Turkey to the Arab world featured recruitment ads as early as 2007 calling on the "Lions of Islam" to fight in Afghanistan, said Brian Glyn Williams, associate professor of Islamic history at the University of Massachusetts. Williams has tracked the movement of jihadis for the U.S. military's Combating Terrorism Center at West Point.

Local Afghans in the border regions are increasingly concerned about the return of the "Araban" or "Ikhwanis," as Arab fighters are known in the Pashtun language, Williams wrote in a CTC paper. He said there were rumors of hardened Arab fighters from Iraq training Afghan Pashtuns in the previously taboo tactic of suicide bombing.

Turkey also appears to have emerged as a source of recruits. Williams estimated as many as 100 Turks had made their way to Pakistan to join the fight in Afghanistan.

"The story of Turkish involvement in transnational jihadism is one of the best kept stories of the war on terror," said Williams, who noted that al-Qaida videos posted on YouTube mention Turks engaging in the insurgency. "The local Afghans whom I talked to claim that the Turks and other foreigners are more prone to suicidal assaults than the local Taliban."

Dozens of Turkish Islamic militants have trained in al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan and taken part in attacks there, said Emin Demirel, an anti-terrorism expert in Turkey. He said images of attacks on mosques or Muslim villages provide propaganda for recruiting young Turkish Muslims.

"Nowadays, they are effectively using the Internet to communicate with fellow militants, and police have difficulty in keeping tabs on several of the jihadist sites," said Demirel, author of several books on Turkish Islamic militant groups. "Turkish courts sometimes locally block access to one particular site, but it is still accessed outside Turkey. Those Web sites eulogize fallen fighters as martyrs in order to recruit among radical Muslim youths."

One example was Cuneyt Ciftci, the German-born son of Turkish immigrants, who took the Arabic nom de guerre of Saad Abu Furqan. In a video obtained last March by the AP, the 28-year-old was shown giving a final hug goodbye to some friends before blowing himself up outside a U.S. military base in eastern Afghanistan.

A Turkish news Web site, Uslanmam, said an Uzbek militant group called Islamic Jihad Union claimed responsibility and eulogized Ciftci as "the brave Turk who has left his luxury life in Germany and came here to go to paradise."

Just a couple of weeks later, newspapers in Pakistan reported that four Turkish nationals with suspected links to al-Qaida had been arrested by authorities on a bus. They were found with explosives, ammunition and jihadi sites on their laptop computers.

A senior official in Turkey's Interior Ministry said it has no information to corroborate claims of an increase in the number of Turks fighting in Afghanistan. The official asked not to be identified because Turkish rules bar civil servants from making statements to the press.

Al-Qaida's recruitment drive stems from a slow and steady resurgence that started in 2002, according to Taliban sources.

"They are awake," said Qari Mohammed Yusuf, who Afghan authorities confirm is a senior Taliban. "They have people going by different names to other countries. They are coming and going easily. In the last year, they have been organizing more day by day."

Al-Qaida has financed the Taliban in both Pakistan and Afghanistan, Yusuf told the AP. In the chaos created by the Taliban groups, al-Qaida has been able to steadily recruit, re-establish its public relations wing, plot new attacks and re-establish areas of operation on both sides of the border.

Some new recruits cross into Afghanistan's northern Balkh province or through Iran into Herat province in western Afghanistan, said Nangyal Khosti, a commander loyal to Jalaluddin Haqqani, a wanted terrorist. Those from Iran have often trained in Iraq and are hardened insurgents. The recruits, Yusuf said, head to Afghanistan's Paktika province, where there are roughly 150 Arab militants.

In Pakistan, al-Qaida recruits are sent to Waziristan and the lawless regions of the northwest along Afghanistan's eastern border, Yusuf said.

Afghan and Western officials say a key route for al-Qaida recruits is from Central Asia into northeastern Kunar and Nuristan provinces, where former U.S. intelligence officials suspect Osama bin Laden is hiding. Both provinces border Pakistan's Bajaur tribal area, where the Taliban hold sway and where the U.S. has targeted al-Qaida's No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahri.

The hulking mountains of Kunar and Nuristan soar thousands of feet and are heavily forested, giving militants good cover. Kunar was the location of the war's two deadliest attacks on U.S. soldiers _ on Sunday, with the killing of the nine Americans, and in June 2005, when militants shot down a helicopter and killed 16 soldiers.

Kunar and Nuristan are also the only areas in South Asia where the Wahhabi or Salafi strain of Islam dominates. Wahhabism is the main sect in Saudi Arabia and is followed by al-Qaida, while Afghanistan's Islamic traditions are more Sufi and mystical in nature.

Naseer Ahmed al-Bahri, who was bin Laden's bodybuard until 2000, told the AP in Yemen last year that al-Qaida has field commanders in countries from Indonesia to Senegal.

While al-Qaida may be sending most of its trainees to Afghanistan and Pakistan, it is probably also creating cells with the mission of attacking Western countries, including the United States, warned Erich Marquardt, senior editor with the Combating Terrorism Center.

"I think we have to accept the fact that al-Qaida has not taken its sights off the far enemy," he said. "Al-Qaida recognizes that it is fighting in multiple theaters and is therefore likely training fighters for different areas of operation."

[jgk3]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Well the eu doesn't recognize n. cyprus, while turkey does, which violates a eu memberstates territorial integrity, that is one. Another is that n. cyprus and cyprus still have closed borders, other than the recent opening of the capital city, the rest of the border is closed. Also I think there may be an issue with Cypriot ships not being able to harbor at turkish ports, not sure if this is still the case though.

alright, thanks for the info.

[Armanen]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

What does the EU exactly demand from Turkey concerning Cyprus?

Well the eu doesn't recognize n. cyprus, while turkey does, which violates a eu memberstates territorial integrity, that is one. Another is that n. cyprus and cyprus still have closed borders, other than the recent opening of the capital city, the rest of the border is closed. Also I think there may be an issue with Cypriot ships not being able to harbor at turkish ports, not sure if this is still the case though.

[jgk3]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

With no solution to Cyprus and Armenian issues, Turkey’s EU prospects out of question

Daniel Gros, director of the Brussels-based Center for European Policy Studies, warned Turkey it would need to get things moving. “Turkey is losing time,” said Gros, adding that he has seen no progress in Turkey’s reform process for EU membership. “The two big s tumbling blocks, Cyprus and Armenia, sooner or later have to be resolved.” “The later Turkey takes steps on the Cyprus issue, the more difficult it will become as each year passes,” Gros said. “If there is no solution to the Cyprus and Armenian issues, we will not be able to speak about Turkey’s EU prospects.” The Armenian issue is, “a secondary question,” because it is not a member of the EU, Gros added, placing the emphasis on Cyprus. He said he remained optimistic over the future of northern Cyprus. “As long as northern Cyprus develops nicely, which it seems to be doing now, over time it will become a de facto state and this reality will be recognized,” Gros said, the Turkish Daily News reports.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=27544

What does the EU exactly demand from Turkey concerning Cyprus?

[Armenian]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

With no solution to Cyprus and Armenian issues, Turkey’s EU prospects out of question

Daniel Gros, director of the Brussels-based Center for European Policy Studies, warned Turkey it would need to get things moving. “Turkey is losing time,” said Gros, adding that he has seen no progress in Turkey’s reform process for EU membership. “The two big s tumbling blocks, Cyprus and Armenia, sooner or later have to be resolved.” “The later Turkey takes steps on the Cyprus issue, the more difficult it will become as each year passes,” Gros said. “If there is no solution to the Cyprus and Armenian issues, we will not be able to speak about Turkey’s EU prospects.” The Armenian issue is, “a secondary question,” because it is not a member of the EU, Gros added, placing the emphasis on Cyprus. He said he remained optimistic over the future of northern Cyprus. “As long as northern Cyprus develops nicely, which it seems to be doing now, over time it will become a de facto state and this reality will be recognized,” Gros said, the Turkish Daily News reports.

Source: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=27544

[crusader1492]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Here's a another reason...Europeansust wouldn't do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7YA1EvbYw&feature=related

[jgk3]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Here is an Armenian proverb for you jgk3, "the weak have no friends"

For Armenia to achieve what it once had, then it must act like the rest of the great powers throughout history have, when the oppourtunity arrives.

This is the problem with land... People grow attached to it, it doesn't matter whether its after centuries or after decades, people will kill in order to keep it.

Land actually belongs to much more than nations, it doesn't matter how many rounds you fire on the battlefield, you will still find birds and butterflies, daisies and trees that have no idea what all the racket is for.

Fighting for our nation isn't about fighting for land actually... What was in the past is gone and if you plant a new seed in the old lands, the tree will be as old as the seed you planted, it will not revive what was lost. Only those who are alive now have the past living in them. You will not make the situation any better through retributive ethnic cleansing.

Fighting for our nation involves fighting what's in the heads of our enemy, but to me it also entails striving for a social structure that makes us excel, find simple happiness whilst appreciating of our order, appreciating our nature's bounty and finding peace with our mortal condition through giving to others.

The simple answer of killing all our enemies so they can no longer think the way they do just doesn't have a lasting effect unless you're the British Empire genociding an entire jungle tribe. This is why Armenians were not defeated as a nation by the genocide (and were perhaps more unified than before as a consequence, ironically).

It is sad that it is an effective tactic to massacre the loser to keep them from coming back. It is regional powers, politics that do this. In rarer cases though, you may find individuals (freedom fighters) acting out of concern for the live destruction of their village or town, making an attempt to strike fear into the advancing enemy by giving them a taste of their own medicine regarding the treatment of women and children. At least the latter, rarer case is acting out of concern for its own survival even though it is still an undesirable situation and undesirable course of action to make...

[Armanen]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

erdogan will have to pay for the policy that takes turkey back to the times of the ottoman empire

Once again the AKP may appear before the court, but we should bear it in mind that about 60% of the population voted for it, and it was not a voting under pressure.
The Supreme Court of Turkey accused Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoрan of undermining the country's founding principle of secularism. The Court made such an announcement voicing the decision of fining the Justice and Development Party (AKP) led by Erdoрan. According to the Court the Prime-Minister violated Article 68 of the Constitution, which establishes Turkey as a secular state. Erdoрan was reminded about his attempt to lift the ban on female students wearing Muslim headscarves in universities and lower the minimum age at which students attend Koranic classes.
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The Supreme Court also dwelt on the Prime-Minister’s other statements, especially on his phrase stating that religion is the basis of the Turkish society. The story began still back in the spring of 2008, when the Prosecutor General of Turkey filed a lawsuit in the Constitutional Court demanding the closure of the AKP, the ruling party of Turkey. Only 2 votes lacked then for banning the activity of the AK party. The Court decided not to close the party then, but it made a resolution to cut off state funding to it.

The accusation against Erdoрan is related to the charge against “Ergenekon”, whose members, according to the charge version, prepared state overturn. It should be noted here that there used to be a silent agreement between the Kemalists and the AKP not to harm each other. However under certain circumstances the agreement was broken. The organization now consists of high-ranking military officers, well-known journalists, and politicians. In all probability “Ergenekon” truly attempted to overthrow the Islamist-rooted Government, realizing perfectly that it is leading Turkey through the same path of Iran. And all the talks about readiness to continue reforms for integration into the EU are nothing more than just talks. In fact, 80 per cent of the population are religious Muslims and they share neither make up with Europe nor relations with the USA. On this background there is a new war breaking out against Kurdish rebels, who have been struggling against Ankara for 30 years and are in no way going to surrender. Failures of Turkish regular forces, the inability to solve the Kurdish problem and the Cyprus problem, not to mention the relations with Armenia seriously destroyed the image of Erdogan government. Actually the Turkish Prime-Minister will have to pay for the policy that does not lead Turkey to prosperity, but takes it back to the times of the Ottoman Empire. Beyond doubt, bases of the Republic founded by Ataturk are pretty far from the Turkish mentality. Ataturk was able to make Turks change at least in appearance. But it was impossible to achieve a final adaptation: Islam does not tolerate shifts from certain dogmas. The only power that represents Kemalism is the General Staff of Turkey, but, according to the Turkish press, it has been weakening its positions lately. More and more officers are bending towards the AKP as the only power capable of rescuing the Turkish Government from collapse. And that the Turkish Government will collapse is beyond doubt as the way of searching one’s identity is full of difficulties.

Alongside with all these issues the problem of recognizing the Armenian Genocide again comes to the fore. Here a great role is also played by the upcoming US Presidential Elections and by aspiration of Turkey to play a leading role in the process of stabilizing the atmosphere in the Caucasus. However, Ankara is reluctant to shift its positions. President Abdullah Gul once more declares that “Everybody was in a state of war at that time (i.e. in 1915). Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Turkey defected to the enemy, while our troops fought on three fronts.” Nothing new can be observed in his statements. We see the same attempts of shifting the blame on the victim. “We have opened all our archive files, even the top secret ones. So, let historians study the issue,” the Turkish President said.

Meanwhile the President assures that he is happy to visit Armenia. “We can't be enemies forever. The Armenian Diaspora impedes normalization of relations between Turkey and Armenia. In spite of all the difficulties I am optimistic about the future. I call for all the interested sides to help with the existing problems: the press, the minorities, the Diaspora. I call for good sense and assistance in normalization of relations between our states,” Abdullah Gul added.

All this is good of course, if we do not take into account the already traditional accusations against the Armenian Diaspora, and the Armenian nation, who simply strive for recognition of mass killings. By the way, recognition of the Genocide will ease Turkey’s way into the EU. Besides, Turkey will finally become a more civilized country that does not evade its history. However, the latter is rather unlikely to happen.

It is quite probable that the AKP once again appears before the court, but we should bear it in mind that about 60% of the population voted for it, and it was not a voting under pressure.

Karine Ter-Sahakyan

http://www.panarmenian.net/details/eng/?nid=946