interesting discussion point about the future of Arcakh

[Anonymouse]

Your phil teacher probably does not even know what communism is.

And you're the only one that does? You are so unique.

[Anonymouse]

The reasons that the Soviet Union collapsed are both too complicated and long to be analysed.In my personal opinion Soviet Union has been built in the wrong foundations.

The reasons the Soviet Union collapsed were because of its inherent flaws in the system. I find it really amusing how you sit here and try to give yourself and your bankrupt ideology an aura of "importance". You try to marginalize those that criticize this bankrupt ideology that will never again have a majority in the world, and try to somehow pass it off as "omg it's like totally complex to go into the reasons why the Soviet Union collapsed. like im the only one that can totally give an assessment, because only I know the truth of how it collapsed, your versions are all misinformed capitalistic bunk"

Soviet Union was a Stalinist state in which the 1st generation of Human Rights,which were won after the bourgeois French Revolution,were non existant.On the other hand the 2nd Generation of Human Rights,result of the Russian Revolution,were enjoyed by all the workers,something which never took place in the Capitalist countries.

What sort of "human rights" are we talking about? The right to dissent and the right to organize voluntarily? Certainly those didn't exist. I seem to recall alot of people being spied on by the KGB, as well as sent to Siberia, murdered, and many people stood in long lines for bread and toilet paper. How cute was that? It seems that when someone is as much of a fanatic as you (or romantice, I don't know which), no matter how many disconcerting facts or flaws are pointed out, the ideologue has his head always burried deep in his anus to be perturbed by the uncomfortable truths.

Neverthless even in that Stalinist State the condition of the Armenian workers was by far better than the condition of the workers today, in the rotten Capitalist System which has infested Armenia.

The ideologue is so entrenched in his bankrupt ideology he cannot even see that the misery Armenia and most of the post-Soviet republics are in today is a result of over half a century of Communist "bliss". It takes a while to reverse the corrosive effects of the Communist nonsense. Even China realized it could not go on long with its communist ideology. North Korea today is in a crap hole because of its ideology. Notice, the nations that have adopted Communism, are not the best places to live.

[karoaper]

The thread has gone into a completely new direction and the original topic has been forgotten. But that's ok, discussion is still a discussion. My two cents are that communism is evil, but socialism as an economic principle has a lot of promise when combined with free-market. I see communism as a social system of control (of freedoms, of information, of propaganda, ...). while socialism is more of an economic system that deals with the control of the industry and market in the country. Pure capitalism to me is crap as well, where the allmighty dollar reigns supreme and marginalizes fairness and quality to all. The quality could never be as high as when it costs large sums, but a compromise, where a decent quality can be available to all, is a must in a developed nation.

Quality of life services should be government controled or at least heavily subsidized to ensure a high quality of life. However, other parts of the industry should be private owned to ensure a flexible free-moving market that can quickly respond to changing volatility and supply and demand. I remember in Armenia, during the "good days", everything was dirt cheap. A pound of meat was a ridiculous amount. Who set this price? The government did. While the public didn't complain, the price did not adequately reflect the cost and the compensation of producing this pound of meat. THe government then would pour huge sums of cash just to keep the many collective farms afloat. The one who should be setting the price for it should be the farmer, not some central agency.

So, this inept system that overloaded itself with controlling every sector of the economy could not on top of that compete with the West's arms expansion. At some point, the camel's back broke bringing us to the sad state of affairs now.

[Red Brigade]

The reasons the Soviet Union collapsed were because of its inherent flaws in the system. I find it really amusing how you sit here and try to give yourself and your bankrupt ideology an aura of "importance". You try to marginalize those that criticize this bankrupt ideology that will never again have a majority in the world, and try to somehow pass it off as "omg it's like totally complex to go into the reasons why the Soviet Union collapsed. like im the only one that can totally give an assessment, because only I know the truth of how it collapsed, your versions are all misinformed capitalistic bunk"


What sort of "human rights" are we talking about? The right to dissent and the right to organize voluntarily? Certainly those didn't exist. I seem to recall alot of people being spied on by the KGB, as well as sent to Siberia, murdered, and many people stood in long lines for bread and toilet paper. How cute was that? It seems that when someone is as much of a fanatic as you (or romantice, I don't know which), no matter how many disconcerting facts or flaws are pointed out, the ideologue has his head always burried deep in his anus to be perturbed by the uncomfortable truths.

The ideologue is so entrenched in his bankrupt ideology he cannot even see that the misery Armenia and most of the post-Soviet republics are in today is a result of over half a century of Communist "bliss". It takes a while to reverse the corrosive effects of the Communist nonsense. Even China realized it could not go on long with its communist ideology. North Korea today is in a crap hole because of its ideology. Notice, the nations that have adopted Communism, are not the best places to live.

I find it really amusing how you sit here and try to give yourself and your bankrupt ideology an aura of "importance".

I already gave you an answer to that.Let alone that it is too long to explain and analyse the true reasons of the collapse to a deluded clown, such as you.

You claim that many people were send to Siberia during Stalin's regime.Yet you tend to ignore that the condition of the workers in the Capitalist countries, during that times, were worse.I am sure you have heared what the bourgeois were doing in the Capitalist countries during the economic crisis in America.A crisis which had an impact in all the capitalist countries.When they were burning the food, because the production was too much and the price of the food was too cheap and thus there was no profit from it.When in Belgium entire families were dying during the winter, since the charcoal was not sold to them.You see it was too cheap to sell it.But of course they tend to forget to give you those ''small details'' in your history books.

Capitalism needed a World War in order to survive.Capitalism needs Imperialism to survive.That is why capitalism and imperialism are confounded after all.

I am not mentioning the economic exploitation of the third world countries in which at 1820, the gap between the richest and the poorest countries was three to one. By 1950 it had risen to 35 to one and today it is 74 to one.

Capitalism is literaly a dead end and will never give a solution to our problems.Any reasonable person ,who has not been brutaly brainwashed by the capitalist media, would be able to see this obvious fact.

Now i don't deny the fact that many people died in the Soviet Union and nobody does.That was partialy the result of Stalinism, not communism.But the true reasons that the system in Soviet Union was authoritarian, is firstly because of the the economic blockade of the Capitalist countries towards the Soviet citizens.Secondly, because the Revolution of 1919 in Germany, under the guidance Rosa Luxemburg,failed.As a result Russia was isolated and blockaded.The Russian bourgeois with their propaganda were attempting to make a counter revolution,which was funded by the Capitalist countries.These things are recorded in history.Hence the only way for Soviet Union to survive, was to abandon Internationalism and continue with more realistic policies.

Communism in one country is difficult to be implemented, since socialism absolutely needs to be based on a high level of productivity in order produce more than enough and distribute it democratically that the people have no reason to oppress one another.

In Communism/Socialism there is no such thing as authotitarian rule, everyone together decide for the bennefit of the society.

The ideologue is so entrenched in his bankrupt ideology he cannot even see that the misery Armenia and most of the post-Soviet republics are in today is a result of over half a century of Communist "bliss".

Yea blame communism for everything wrong like a typical Eastern European deluded idiot.

Notice, the nations that have adopted Communism, are not the best places to live.

Notice that all nations that have adopted communism for some unknown reason are economically blockaded and isolated by the capitalist countries.

but socialism as an economic principle has a lot of promise when combined with free-market.

Nowdays every Capitalist calls himself a Socialist.
Karl Marx.

[karoaper]

Red, you have to be careful when you're talking about communism/socialism on paper and in reality. I've only briefly touched Marx's writings, but I can say that the idea of equality for all and fair distribution of goods and services is a wonderful idea. However, this socialism turned out to have an ugly sibling, called communism, which I think even on paper was nothing to rave about. In reality it was much much worse, communist leaders were extremely corrupt and gluttonous and empirialistic and bloodthirsty and incredibly paranoid. Bolsheviks murdered millions of people, with around 2 million killed Ukrainians. Every single leader was either a sex addicted lunatic or a genocidal maniac. In addition they slowly destroyed the nationalism of every single minority. This is why they imprisoned Sergey Parajanov and countless many Armenian poets and artists, not to say revolutionaries.

Yes, Soviet Union brought progress and development, but at what cost. Gotta think about it. Yes, everything was cheap, but at what cost. We're not sheep, we need to have freedom and the ability to think for ourselves (even if we don't use that particular freedom), not just eat, work, sleep.

I do agree with you that the agressive way with which the West went after the communist countries was very shameful. But, do you honestly think that the Soviets wouldn't do the same to Capitalist countries? They would and just to get the point across they'd murder half and mil of people. To me, the difference between hardcore communists and capitalists is that capitalists don't care about the lifes of people in third-world nations, like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Korea, Algeria etc (if hundreds of thousands of those people die so that wealthy western nations gain resources and capital, so what), while the hardcore commies, like China and USSR, don't care about the lifes of their own people as well.

You're accusing mouse of being brainwashed, but I must tell you that I think you're pretty brainwashed yourself.

[Red Brigade]

I've only briefly touched Marx's writings,

However, this socialism turned out to have an ugly sibling, called communism, which I think even on paper was nothing to rave about.

Karo don't be offended from what i will tell you but it would be wise not to speak about matters which you are not informed.

[karoaper]

Karo don't be offended from what i will tell you but it would be wise not to speak about matters which you are not informed.

No you're right I certainly am not informed in detail about the ideas and the philosophy of it, but I have lived in communism and I'm familiar with the mess of Soviet regime firsthand. I'm thankful for what Russians did to help Armenians, but the help was initially given by the Tsarists anyways. I'm also painfully aware, however, of the breakdown of Armenian national pride due to bolsheviks. You had to be proud of Soviet Armenia only. There was a price we had to pay to be under the wing of Russians and that price was heavy, that's all I'm saying. To me communism was not an middle of road, balanced system. It was extreme, it was oppressive and it was destructive. It had its good parts too of course, such as passionate commitement to progress and development of all layers of life, even art (as long as it was preapproved). But behind the cheap prices, steady jobs, and safety and security, the gears of fear and paranoia and control turned and these gears sure swallowed groves of innocent people, who only wanted to speak their minds against the problems of the regime. The worse part of it for me was that it created a nation of hypocrites, who carried their communist party membership cards, but deep inside hated it. It was all a farce, where idiots were rewarded more than the genious because of what face they showed in public.